Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Increase in commercial pilots needed?

Collapse
X
Collapse
Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts
  • blackberry1
    Registered User
    • Sep 2012
    • 6

    Increase in commercial pilots needed?

    Hi

    join today, so hello

    An industry forecast that nearly half a million new airline pilots will be needed worldwide over the next 20 years as airlines expand their fleets has raised safety concerns that airlines will hire lower caliber pilots as they struggle to fill slots.

    Likewise, Boeing predicts 601,000 new aircraft maintenance technicians will be needed over the same period, with greatest demand 243,500 technicians in the Asia-Pacific region. An estimated 92,500 new technicians will North America.

    Could the UK grab a slice of this market for training world class pilots and technicians.
  • JT442
    Senior Member
    • Oct 2010
    • 921

    #2
    This has been talked about for years, and will continue to be talked about without any significant progress for years to come.

    Way back at the end of the 1990's, it was suggested that the population of engineers was ageing, and as such we (Britain) should lead the field in creating thousands of new engineers through specialist training academies. We did what was suggested - I even work for one of them now. The issue was that the forecasted demand never materialised and we ended up flooding the mechanics' market with knowledgeable, but unskilled people. Only now are those mechanics starting to filter into the industry as licensed engineers - towards ten years after we started! We still expect an entrant to engineer ratio of 56:5. In other words, for every intake, we will watch only five gain licences.

    The costs are interesting... we estimate that to run a two year full time EASA Part 147 course ONLY at full cost, would cost each learner about 20,000 as a minimum. Currently we couple the Part 147 course to a degree for which the students (and us) can get funding. Would you pay 20000 for a licence course when you can just go to the CAA and sit the exams for 43 a go?.... no. What quality is the training for this 'licence by post'? (not the company 'Licence by post'! - they are quite good at what they do, but the notes are expensive) No quality. OK, so the notes are reasonable but its a case of sitting and reading before reciting facts and figures. No practical experience is built up, thus you are useless to the industry.

    The next point relates to the practical aspects... So we now have engineering students who know a vast amount of theory, and may have walked past a retired aircraft once or twice while studying. Are they any good to the industry? No - because they have not worked with live aeroplanes or their systems. They need 100% supervision, and thus are a burden to the company. The only way to make them useful is through an apprenticeship or a period of employment where they shadow an engineer. The only way that this happens is when a maintenance company can afford to give its time to training. Not many do. A better way for costs to be met is if the engineering company provided an aircraft and support to the school - we have a 737, BUT its a -200 series (out of date) and it's dying a horrific death because we cannot get spares. We can't afford an APU overhaul at industry rates.... We only get the money required to deliver a theory based degree, NOT the EASA part 66 modules or practical work.....



    In short, the UK is unable to meet any actual demand from the aviation industry because we charge too much for training, and expect to be paid more than others in employment. The industry demands instant engineering capability, but is not willing to help with the training process. We need a common vision, and very deep pockets.

    Personally, I'll be employing the Alabanian who has a Part 66 licence, AND who wants to pay me to allow him to gain experience....
    Last edited by JT442; 12th September 2012, 10:38.

    Comment

    • blackberry1
      Registered User
      • Sep 2012
      • 6

      #3
      Increase in commercial pilots needed?

      If there for instance were grants available and the industry and government got together, do you think it would benefit the UK in terms of wealth creation and jobs.

      also if we could lead the way in training and best practice we could export this and bring cash to the UK.

      also in the statement i read it said about the shortage of flight simulators?

      I know what i am saying is in simple terms but is this going along the right lines?

      get the UK leading the way

      Comment

      • ThreeSpool
        Rank 5 Registered User
        • Mar 2010
        • 956

        #4
        Why would people from outside the EU and want to train in an EASA Environment? The only reason they do, is to get jobs in the EU.

        And, the discussion usually deteriorates into the usual EU/Non-EU eroding of terms and pay.

        Comment

        • blackberry1
          Registered User
          • Sep 2012
          • 6

          #5
          Increase in commercial pilots needed?

          What about UK staff filling the void in non EU countries?

          if there might be a shortage?

          Comment

          • JT442
            Senior Member
            • Oct 2010
            • 921

            #6
            For degrees, we do lead the way in training - the standard is the Kingston University Foundation Degree in Aircraft Engineering which is sold abroad as well as at home. Effectively the training is conducted by a local set up, while the degree is certified by Kingston. Kingston provide the students and we pay them to deliver the degree. Of course, I refer again to engineering.

            The biggest question is, how do you fund non-academic courses? Think PPL /CPL /ATPL / EASA Part 66.

            How do you get a significant return to the country's economic state when most maintenance is conducted in eastern europe (central to operations and cheaper labour).

            From a flying point of view, why would you conduct ATPL here when the weather is better elsewhere, the fuel/ landing costs are cheaper/ instructor fees are less/ the airspace is quieter. The UK is NOT the place to conduct training. If you conduct your training somewhere else, the wealth stays within that environment and does not benefit the UK economy.

            Please remember that EASA part 66 is pretty much a global concern with exceptions to the US and Australia. Pilot training, I know little about, but I'd imagine that its a reasonably simple procedure to convert a UK-obtained ATPL to an FAA one.

            The main engineering Part 147 School in Dubai is mainly staffed by UK instructors, as are several others throughout the world. I still fail to see the issue raised, or a workable solution to technical training costs.
            Last edited by JT442; 12th September 2012, 15:47.

            Comment

            • Deano
              Moderator
              • Aug 2003
              • 3098

              #7
              Industry forecasts should be taken with a large pinch of salt. The growth figures predicted by Boeing et al may well be close to the mark, but what they fail to mention is that most of this growth will be in the Middle East and Far East. There isn't too much room for expansion within Europe as it stands, and the forecasts for Europe in particular will come up well short of the stated figures. If you want to embark on flight training I would look long and hard at the industry at the moment, and where it is heading in the future. Do your research, and when you think you have researched it to death, do some more research. I am not sure the industry will see the booms it did regarding pilot recruitment in the mid 2000's again, the face of flight training as we know it is rapidly changing, and not necessarily for the better. Just be careful before you invest 120k for the privilege to sit in the right hand seat. No job on the planet is worth that sort of debt to be "employed" (I use that term loosely) on the ghastly flexi contracts on offer today.
              http://www.findmadeleine.com

              Comment

              • blackberry1
                Registered User
                • Sep 2012
                • 6

                #8
                Increase in commercial pilots needed? Reply to Thread

                Point being made was from that report

                more pilots and technicians would be needed

                Just seeing if the UK could benefit from that

                if you feel the answer is no, that's fine just asking the question

                Comment

                • EGTC
                  Rank 5 Registered User
                  • Jan 2009
                  • 2835

                  #9
                  blackberry1, I doubt that there will be a significant increase in jobs for pilots in Europe. We're still seeing airlines disappear and jobs lost (bmi/bmibaby) in recent times and so I think that recruitment will be a slow process. The days of sponsorship are gone, the days of debt and lower pay is the future sadly.
                  I decided two years ago to give up on becoming an airline pilot - the job is a great one, but not worth paying out 100,000 or more for training. What other job would ask you to pay that much in training only to say you MIGHT get a job but it's unlikely.
                  Y.N.W.A

                  Comment

                  • Matt-100
                    Rank 5 Registered User
                    • Jul 2012
                    • 568

                    #10
                    EGTC, I think you're miss-interpreting what blackberry is saying?

                    He's not saying that European (British) airlines will need more pilots... Simply saying that could UK aviation academies (oxford, CTC etc.) not profit from the global rise in demand due to places like China and the UAE not being able to train their own pilots fast enough.

                    So, I think what he's saying is - international crews could be trained in the UK and then go back home to work as their home training is at max capacity.

                    In which case, I don't see why UK academies couldn't profit?
                    Feel free to check out my aviation pictures at http://www.flickr.com/photos/lhr_spotter/ - comments welcome

                    Comment

                    • EGTC
                      Rank 5 Registered User
                      • Jan 2009
                      • 2835

                      #11
                      It still won't work, as already has been stated, the UK isn't really good enough for flight training. The weather is a big factor and this is why a lot of Brits go to places like the USA as it's not only cheaper, the weather is better.
                      I've been flying for 9yrs now and I have my PPL and during training I sometimes went weeks without flying thanks to the British weather. The UK is good for groundschool, not so good for the practical part though.
                      Y.N.W.A

                      Comment

                      • blackberry1
                        Registered User
                        • Sep 2012
                        • 6

                        #12
                        Increase in commercial pilots needed?

                        Matt-100 thanks you see where i am coming from

                        so what has been said on this thread so i understand that

                        EGTC is saying based around the ground school and maybe fight simulators (i maybe wrong) if investment was targeted in these areas the UK could profit?

                        Comment

                        • EGTC
                          Rank 5 Registered User
                          • Jan 2009
                          • 2835

                          #13
                          Not sure really as you can only do so much in the flight simulator. Normally there are restrictions on the number of sim hours you can log. I believe similators are very expensive to run too.
                          If training it's probably easier to do most, if not all, the training under one company, that way you haven't got to worry about getting to know a new instructor etc To do that you'd need decent weather for continuation of the flying part.
                          Y.N.W.A

                          Comment

                          • 27vet
                            Rank 5 Registered User
                            • Nov 2009
                            • 2698

                            #14
                            Flying is a chicken/egg situation for self sponsored aspirant pilots. Airlines like to employ pilots with lots of experience and are loathe to train pilots. Where do they obtain experience? When the pool of experienced pilots dries up one day, the airlines will be to blame, with the exception of those airlines who run cadet schemes.
                            sigpicHindsight is what you see from the tailgunner's position...

                            Comment

                            • Deano
                              Moderator
                              • Aug 2003
                              • 3098

                              #15
                              Originally posted by EGTC View Post
                              Not sure really as you can only do so much in the flight simulator. Normally there are restrictions on the number of sim hours you can log. I believe similators are very expensive to run too.
                              If training it's probably easier to do most, if not all, the training under one company, that way you haven't got to worry about getting to know a new instructor etc To do that you'd need decent weather for continuation of the flying part.
                              EGTC

                              The face of flight training in the UK, and Europe now that we are changing to EASA (Sept 17th) is changing. The days of modular training will be a distant memory in a few years time so things like weather/instructors etc will count for nothing. As for commercial training, the weather is largely irrelevant because once you start your CPL/IR you will be flying in all weathers anyway. With the IR you can use an approved simulator (FNPTII or better) for the majority of your training, so the sim time is not necessarily a restriction.
                              The advent of the MPL (or Multi Crew Pilot's License), along with the sausage factories that is CTC, along with flexicrew contracts, along with the never ending supply of hypnotic ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8AOfbnGkuGc ) starry eyed students who will stop at nothing to sit in the right seat of an airliner will render the modular route a no go. My guess is you will see alot of modular flight schools either going under, or not offering commercial training any more. Also remember the MPL is predominantly simulator training geared towards airline S.O.Ps. I have seen first hand the by-product of MPL courses and some of it is quite scary.

                              As for the UK picking up some of this expansion, I am not sure we are in a position to do so. This will require regulatory approval to teach the required training to overseas standards, how many FTO's will go down this road? It all costs money to gain this approval. How many FTO's in this country provides FAA training? I can't name one, so maybe the answer to blackberry's question is already answered.
                              Last edited by Deano; 13th September 2012, 17:21. Reason: spelling
                              http://www.findmadeleine.com

                              Comment

                              • blackberry1
                                Registered User
                                • Sep 2012
                                • 6

                                #16
                                Hi

                                Well i started the tread with some optimism and it seems to be all doom and gloom.

                                I really know very little about the aviation industry and from the report i read and some others related to it, i thought commercially the UK economy could benefit.

                                Sometimes things need to change for this to happen and for the sake of getting decent skilled jobs to be created i.e. pilots and crew plus technicians
                                i am sure that grants would be available for the right projects?

                                may be i am totally wrong

                                Comment

                                • 27vet
                                  Rank 5 Registered User
                                  • Nov 2009
                                  • 2698

                                  #17
                                  Not all gloom. The tenacious do sometimes make it to the top.
                                  sigpicHindsight is what you see from the tailgunner's position...

                                  Comment

                                  • Primate
                                    Rank 5 Registered User
                                    • Jan 2000
                                    • 655

                                    #18
                                    Sorry for the thread necrophilia.

                                    blackberry1,

                                    Have you taken a look at the British Airways Future Pilot Programme?

                                    Originally posted by Deano View Post
                                    With the IR you can use an approved simulator (FNPTII or better) for the majority of your training, so the sim time is not necessarily a restriction.
                                    I'm not familiar with the current rules regarding this in the UK, but in a JAR-FCL compliant environment there are restrictions on time spent in an FNPTII or better, i.e. a total of 55 hours, including 40 hours instrument training and 15 hours MCC in the case of an integrated ATPL(A) course.

                                    Originally posted by Deano View Post
                                    Also remember the MPL is predominantly simulator training geared towards airline S.O.Ps. I have seen first hand the by-product of MPL courses and some of it is quite scary.
                                    Again, I'm not familiar with the UK situation, but the MPL(A) students I know did get a good deal of time in SEPs and some MEP before moving onto jets or turboprops with their respective host airlines. I believe some of them are doing quite well today.

                                    Comment

                                    • slims1989
                                      Registered User
                                      • Jul 2014
                                      • 3

                                      #19
                                      courses

                                      ESMA

                                      voici un lien pour cours ESMA ATPL + QCM :
                                      http://adf.ly/qiorc

                                      Comment

                                      • Cking
                                        Rank 5 Registered User
                                        • Oct 2004
                                        • 1000

                                        #20
                                        There will be no shortage of pilots in the UK as long as there are people who will pay for their own training/type rating/uniform/ passes etc, etc.
                                        The shortage of skilled licenced engineers IS a worry. The big firms are only training a few guys at a time and it takes a long time to get the qualifications and experience. Also very few people think about engineering as a career.

                                        Rgds Cking

                                        Comment

                                        Unconfigured Ad Widget

                                        Collapse

                                         

                                        Working...
                                        X