Navies news from around the world -III

[Fedaykin]

Type 24 - proposed

[philbob]

any images of the type 25? any more of the type 24?

[Fedaykin]

any images of the type 25? any more of the type 24?

None for the Type 25 I'm afraid, a web search brought up the Type 24 which lookks pretty similar to the Type 23 albeit with Type 21 influence.

Note the auto reloadable Seawolf twin launchers.

[Tango III]

Based on the artical of www.globalsecurity.org, maybe it will be the stealthy design form these schemes

The only artists impression of the future UK frigate.

The FSC will have a lot in common with the U.S. Navy’s new Littoral Combat Ship. BAE’s concept art depicts a vessel with the “stealth lines and … other capabilities inherent in USS Freedom,” according to Iain Ballantyne, writing in Warships International Fleet Review. Like the American LCS, FSC will have a huge flight deck, with room for a large helicopter plus vertical-takeoff robots. The two designs both feature stern ramps for quickly launching small boats.

http://www.warisboring.com/?p=3525

[kev 99]

Based on the artical of www.globalsecurity.org, maybe it will be the stealthy design form these schemes

The only artists impression of the future UK frigate.

The FSC will have a lot in common with the U.S. Navy’s new Littoral Combat Ship. BAE’s concept art depicts a vessel with the “stealth lines and … other capabilities inherent in USS Freedom,” according to Iain Ballantyne, writing in Warships International Fleet Review. Like the American LCS, FSC will have a huge flight deck, with room for a large helicopter plus vertical-takeoff robots. The two designs both feature stern ramps for quickly launching small boats.

http://www.warisboring.com/?p=3525

That article sounds like it was written for a very US centric audience that don't really know much or have any interest in the rest of the world's navies, the BAE concept art depicts a vessel that has a great deal more in common with T45 than USS Freedom, it's a T45 hull and has a very similar super structure including the 'stealth lines' the model pictures that have been released illustrate that.

The first picture is the VT trimaran frigate, an old design and most of the rumours coming out suggest that it will have a conventional hull form.

The second picture is the BMT F5 which would be prohibitively expensive for the RN.

[StevoJH]

Any chance of a trimaran frigate for the RN probably disappeared the second the UK MoD decided to sell RV Triton.

Triton is now acting as an Armed Customs Vessel with the Australian Customs Service with a pair of .50's and a bunch of armed customs officers chasing illegal immigrants and illegal fishing boats.

[Tango III]

Russia floats out second Gepard class frigate for Vietnam

Shipbuilders in Russia's republic of Tatarstan floated out a second frigate for the Vietnamese Navy on Tuesday, a spokesman for the Zelenodolsk shipyard said.

Russia and Vietnam signed a contract on the construction of two Gepard 3.9 class frigates for the Vietnamese Navy in 2006. The first frigate was floated out in December 2009.

"A second Gepard 3.9 class frigate for the Vietnamese Navy was floated out on Tuesday. The first frigate will be delivered to Vietnam in October and the second by the end of this year," the spokesman said.

Both ships will undergo sea trials in the Baltic Sea.

Full Story

[Tango III]

BMT unveils new Fast Landing Craft design

BMT Nigel Gee Ltd and BMT Defence Services Ltd, subsidiaries of BMT Group Ltd, the leading international maritime design, engineering and risk management consultancy, have unveiled their new design for a highly capable Fast Landing Craft (FLC).

Contracted by Defence Equipment & Support (DE&S) the BMT team developed a novel, tri-bow monohull platform using a parent hull-form derived from an internal BMT research and development programme, which included model tests to optimise performance.

Full Story

[Colombamike]

Turkey revives $3 billion Navy project

(6 futur AAW frigates)
http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/n.p...ect-2010-03-15

[F35b]

HMS Sceptre Heads To Falklands

http://www.modoracle.com/news/HMS-Sc...l?category=all

Source: Sun online



A Royal Navy attack submarine has been sent to boost security around the Falkland Islands - as speculation mounts that drillers have found oil there, The Sun newspaper has revealed.

Top brass gave the order last month to send in HMS Sceptre - a 5,000-tonne Swiftsure-class nuclear-powered submarine.

Sources said that the presence of Sceptre around the Falklands is hoped to be enough to dampen the ambitions of Argentina - which still lays claim to the British islands.

Details of the submarine's deployment came as speculation soared that British firm Desire Petroleum has struck oil, sending its share price sky-high.

Desire - the first company to explore there - is expected to announce next week whether it has had success.

The company is the first of seven British-backed firms hoping to drill there in the coming months. Experts claim there could be as much as 60 billion barrels of crude under the Falklands' coastal waters.

But any discovery will dramatically increase the tension between the UK and Argentina.

Argentina's President Cristina Kirchner insists that the Falklands are occupied by Britain illegally and she has tightened shipping regulations.

Last Wednesday a mob of 100 protesters armed with petrol bombs were stopped by cops as they tried to storm the British Embassy in Buenos Aires.

It is understood that HMS Sceptre - which is equipped with Spearfish anti-ship torpedoes - sailed south from the coast of southern Africa last month.

Its mission in the South Atlantic is to monitor the disputed so-called "Conservation Zone" waters surrounding the islands - where drilling is currently under way.

The Ministry of Defence refused to discuss Sceptre's deployment.

A spokesman insisted "We do not comment on submarine operations."

But a source told The Sun "HMS Sceptre is a fully-equipped, nuclear-powered submarine.

"It has state-of-the-art listening sensors and will be monitoring all ship movements in the area. The decision to send HMS Sceptre was made last month and it has taken more than three weeks to reach the area.

"The mere fact she is lurking somewhere in the waters around the islands will strike fear into the hearts of any possible enemy."

Naval expert Steve Bush, editor of Warship World, described the benefits of having a submarine in the area.

He said "A nuclear-powered submarine has been dispatched.

"They are vessels capable of reconnoissance, monitoring and anti-strike shipping missions if required.

"While there it will remain underwater, totally stealthy. They will remain invisible.

"They will not know where it is, and that is the threat."

Last month we told how Type 42 destroyer HMS York was patrolling off the islands' capital Port Stanley.

It has been joined by the survey vessel HMS Scott.

The fleet also has air support from a squadron of RAF Typhoon fighter jets based on the islands.

[F35b]

Submarine Commander 'Misread Chart'

Source: Guardian
Monday, March 15, 2010

http://www.modoracle.com/news/Submar...l?category=all

A Royal Navy commander crashed a nuclear-powered submarine into a large rock in the Red Sea after misreading a number one as seven on a navigational chart, a court martial heard today.

Commander Steven Drysdale, who was in charge of HMS Superb, had ordered the vessel to take a shorter route to make sure it reached a rendezvous point in time for an operation. The submarine dived to reach deeper water so that it could travel faster, the hearing at Portsmouth naval base was told.

A pinnacle jutting out from the seabed was marked as being at a depth of 123 metres, but Drysdale misread it as 723. Thinking that the boat would clear the obstruction easily, the submarine was directed towards it and it grounded.

Drysdale, officer of the watch Lieutenant Commander Andrew Cutler and navigation officer Lieutenant Lee Blair all admitted at a previous hearing an offence of neglecting to perform their duty.

Captain Stuart Crozier, prosecuting, told the hearing that the submarine had been suffering from technical problems, causing it to lose speed, at the time of the incident in May 2008. He said there was pressure on Drysdale to ensure the submarine arrived in the Gulf on time for planned operations.

Crozier said Drysdale ordered a new route to be plotted that cut about four miles off the previous plan. He also ordered the submarine to dive deeper to where there was colder water, allowing it to travel faster.

When the new route was charted by the plotting officer, who does not face the court martial, all three defendants failed to spot that the pinnacle marked on the map was only 123 metres deep, the only shallow point in the area.

Crozier said that when the submarine collided with the pinnacle, the vessel was brought to an almost immediate halt. "The submarine collided with the underwater obstacle reducing its speed from 16 knots to three knots in a very short time," he said. "There was a significant amount of damage to the forehead of the submarine, but no casualties."

He said all three of the accused had looked at the chart. "No thorough check was made as to the depths in relation to the decision to take the submarine to this dive depth (250 metres). The new navigational track went directly over the pinnacle which showed 123 metres."

The court martial was told that checking the chart would have been made more difficult because the line of the new route had been drawn directly across the spot where the pinnacle lay on the map, making it difficult to see. The hearing was told that new procedures had since been introduced by the navy so that all depths are rechecked when a new route is charted for a submarine.

Commander Alison Towler, representing Drysdale, told the court that the commanding officer had since been moved to a desk job. She said the service had also stopped Drysdale from taking up the high-profile position of Royal Navy staff officer submarines in Washington DC shortly after the incident.

She said Drysdale, who has served in the navy for 25 years, had inspected the chart but had misread the depth of the pinnacle.

"Cdr Drysdale wishes to express his deep remorse and regret in relation to the incident which has led to this court martial. He fully accepts his responsibility in relation to this matter," she said.

Commander Joe Turner, representing Cutler, said: "He regrets the incident and fully accepts his responsibility. He will have to live with what happened for the rest of his life. He expresses his full remorse."

Commander Stuart Wright, representing Blair, said the navigation officer was "fatigued" at the time of the crash having lost his signal communications officer to illness.

The accident damaged HMS Superb's bow and its sonar equipment, causing it to have difficulty diving. The submarine had to abandon its planned deployment but was able to return to the UK under its own power, the hearing was told.

The submarine, which came into service in 1976, was decommissioned in September 2008 and the MoD has said the accident did not lead to the submarine being taken out of service earlier than planned.

Drysdale pleaded guilty to failing to ensure the safe direction of the submarine, while Cutler pleaded guilty to failing to supervise the plot officer adequately. Blair pleaded guilty to failing to take into account all the dangers in or near the planned movements of HMS Superb.


I don't know much about submarine operations but is the fact that the sub was struggling to reach 18 knots a bit worrying. i thought the Swifture should be capable of 25-30knots+?

[medal64]

Turkey moves ahead with LPD acquisition plan

Turkey's Undersecretariat for Defence Industries (Savunma Sanayii Müstesarligi - SSM) has issued a request for proposals (RfP) to seven local shipyards for the construction of a landing platform dock (LPD) vessel for the Turkish Naval Forces.
ADIK, Çelik Tekne, Dearsan Shipyard, Desan Shipyard, Istanbul Shipyard, RMK Marine and SEDEF received the RfP in February and have been given nine months to develop their tender responses.
The LPD requirement calls for a logistically self-sustaining amphibious vessel able to transport, sustain and land a battalion-size force in the Aegean, Mediterranean and Black Sea operating areas. The ship will also have a secondary humanitarian relief role.
While the SSM is looking to grow an indigenous naval design and build capability across local shipyards, the complex and unique nature of the LPD project has led officials to opt for a more conservative procurement strategy that allows Turkish industry to bid a solution based on a proven off-the-shelf design. This means that local shipyards are free to team with an overseas yard or design house, either through a licence or subcontract arrangement or in a joint venture.

http://www.janes.com/news/defence/jn...0317_1_n.shtml

[MisterQ]

Submarine Commander 'Misread Chart'



I don't know much about submarine operations but is the fact that the sub was struggling to reach 18 knots a bit worrying. i thought the Swifture should be capable of 25-30knots+?

It all depends on the water it's passing through, salinity, temperature, depth etc all have an effect on speed

[Tango III]

Navy: LCS fuel disparity not a deal-breaker

The Navy’s top two leaders said it didn’t matter much if Independence-class littoral combat ships were more fuel-efficient than the Freedom class, because any disparity would only exist at flank speed, and the ships wouldn’t spend much time going that fast.

Navy Secretary Ray Mabus told Sen. Richard Shelby, R-Ala., that better fuel efficiency of the General Dynamics-built LCS over the Lockheed Martin-built ship only comes into play “at the upper end” of the ships’ performance, and that’s not a major problem because “they would be used very infrequently at such high speeds.”

Full Story

[Stonewall]

Australian Submarines 'Poor Value for Money' DAN OAKES


(Source: Australian Strategic Policy Institute; issued March 19, 2010)



Australia's insistence on maintaining a strong defence industry means it pays vastly more than other nations for its equipment, a study has found.

Conducted in the United States by McKinsey consultants, the study raises further concerns about the Rudd government's plans to acquire 12 submarines to replace the trouble-plagued Collins class vessels.

The report ranked the US and Australia equal last out of 33 countries on a measure of defence equipment output versus expenditure. Brazil, Poland and Russia headed the table.

''In general, countries that make it a point to support their domestic defence industries have higher procurement costs than those that rely on imports,'' the report says. ''Countries that procure older equipment from the global market tend to have very capable fleets for less money.''

The new submarine fleet for Australia was proposed in a defence white paper last year.

The Australian Strategic Policy Institute (ASPI), in a study last year, put a price tag of $9 billion on buying off-the-shelf European submarines, and $36 billion on an Australian design and build.

''My understanding is that [build or buy] is still an open question,'' Andrew Davies, one of the ASPI study's authors, has told The Age.

''The government has been quite supportive of the submarine as it's been described in the white paper in all of its public discussions, but they have also stressed that no decision has been made yet. ''

Defence Materiel Minister Greg Combet told a conference in January the choices were between an off-the-shelf submarine, a reworked Collins or one designed from the ground up. But Mr Combet said an Australian design-and-build could provide ''significant potential industrial and military capability opportunities because of its size and duration, among other things''.

In the white paper, the government declared it was ''committed to ensuring that certain strategic industry capabilities remain resident in Australia''.

Dr Davies said that, despite the submarines controversy, Australia was inexorably moving towards buy, rather than build.

He said that the thought of supporting a local defence industry was often more attractive than the reality, despite the lure of retaining technology and creating jobs. ''There was no thought of assembling the Joint Strike Fighter or Super Hornet here,'' Dr Davies said. ''I think that trend has been a very clear one over the last 60 years but is only going to accelerate.''

-ends-


http://www.defense-aerospace.com/art...-money%27.html

[Tango III]

Two of the best - Dauntless and Astute on sea trials

Glasgow, United Kingdom: Two of the most advanced naval vessels in the world met for the first time this week, as Dauntless, the second of the Royal Navy’s Type 45 destroyers, and Astute, the first of class Astute nuclear powered attack submarine, combined on sea trials in the firth of Clyde.

Astute is the most advanced attack submarine ever supplied to the Royal Navy, incorporating the latest stealth technology combined with a world class sonar system, an improved capability for world-wide operations, much greater firepower, better communications and crew accommodation than in-service submarines.
Full Story

[F35b]

They should have a race! who is faster Astute or Dauntless

[Tango III]

It is clear Dauntless, Type 45 destroyer with speed about 30 Kns. Vs about 29 Kns. for Astute nuclear powered attack submarine.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Type_45_destroyer

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Astute_class_submarine

[mupp]

It is clear Dauntless, Type 45 destroyer with speed about 30 Kns. Vs about 29 Kns. for Astute nuclear powered attack submarine.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Type_45_destroyer

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Astute_class_submarine

I think the Astute class might top out over 30Knots...since their speed is classified we'll never be sure.

[Tango III]

Fate of Russia's Bulava missile must be decided this summer — Navy

The upcoming tests of Russia's troubled Bulava ballistic missile will determine whether it will be put in service with the Russian Navy or scrapped, a senior Navy commander said.

The Russian Navy is planning to conduct at least four test launches of the Bulava ballistic missile at the end of June.

"I believe that this summer will be decisive in terms of adopting Bulava for the service with the Navy," First Deputy of the Naval General Staff Vice Admiral Oleg Burtsev said in an interview with Ekho Moskvy radio station on Saturday.

"We will continue Bulava tests launches from Dmitry Donskoy submarine and ultimately from Borey class Yury Dolgoruky sub, which is scheduled to carry out several test launches during sea trials," Burtsev said.
Full Story

[Tango III]

Russia needs minimum 50 nuclear subs for fleet - Navy Vice Admiral

The Russian Navy ideally needs to have at least 50 nuclear-powered submarines, a high-ranking Navy officer said during a live interview with Ekho Moskvy radio station on Saturday.

The Russian Navy has some 60 strategic, multi-functional and diesel-powered submarines in its fleet that are combat ready.

"The number of nuclear submarines in Russia's Navy should be no less than 40-50," First Deputy of the Naval General Staff Vice Admiral Oleg Burtsev said.

He said that France, Britain and the United States have at least nine combat ready nuclear subs at sea at all times.
Full Story

[Tango III]

Marines want to go back to traditional amphibs

More than two years before the amphibious assault ship America enters the fleet, Marine officials have already drawn up early plans for a version of the ship that includes a major component America is missing — a well deck.

The “LHA 8 concept,” as it was called in a presentation Monday by Marine Corps Combat Development Command, would combine new aviation features the Marines want in the America class with a traditional big-deck capacity for landing craft and green gear.
Full Story

[Obi Wan Russell]

The reason the Marines want more well decked LHAs rather than 'LHA-6 type' ships is the rapid speed with which the USN is decommissioning the Tarawa class LHAs, before their replacements can be built. Tarawa (LHA-1) herself has been retained in reserve rather than used for target practice to placate the Marines who are very concerned about overall numbers. In reality the USN and USM will need both LHA-6 types and LHA-8 types in the future, rather than an 'either/or' situation which appears likely. The '6s can accomodate the bulk of the CAS F-35Bs freeing up the decks of the '8s to concentrate on trrop carrying helos (the '6s can still provide additional troop carrying helos and troop accomodation, acting as force multipliers). Both types are needed.

[Colombamike]

The reason the Marines want more well decked LHAs rather than 'LHA-6 type' ships is the rapid speed with which the USN is decommissioning the Tarawa class LHAs, before their replacements can be built. Tarawa (LHA-1) herself has been retained in reserve rather than used for target practice to placate the Marines who are very concerned about overall numbers. In reality the USN and USM will need both LHA-6 types and LHA-8 types in the future, rather than an 'either/or' situation which appears likely. The '6s can accomodate the bulk of the CAS F-35Bs freeing up the decks of the '8s to concentrate on trrop carrying helos (the '6s can still provide additional troop carrying helos and troop accomodation, acting as force multipliers). Both types are needed.

Dramaticaly costly, expensive to maintain 2 ships class, nearly identical....

[Obi Wan Russell]

Dramaticaly costly, expensive to maintain 2 ships class, nearly identical....

Two nearly identical ship classes that use the same components/logistic supply train and only physically differ in that one has a well deck and the other doesn't? I hope you were being sarcastic!

[Colombamike]

Two nearly identical ship classes that use the same components/logistic supply train and only physically differ in that one has a well deck and the other doesn't? I hope you were being sarcastic!

Hi Obi
Sorry for my bad english

Do you think the U.S. Navy can afford to pay:
- 11 aircraft carrier (10/14 billion $ each)
- 9 / 10 type LHA-6 America (2-2,5 billion $ each, LHD HEAVY focused on aviation capabilities: 12/18 F-35, without well deck for landing craft...)
- 9 / 10 type LHD1/8 (1,8-2,5 billion $ each, focused on amphibious capabilities, with only a handfull of 6/8 F-35, with well deck, landing craft & more vehicles, troops)
- 9 / 10 LPD san antonio (1,5-2 billion $ each)
- 9 / 10 LSD (replaced around 2020 by the futur LSD(X))

You and I know that ..... .... no!

and even 4/5 LHA-6 and 4/5 LHD-1/LHA-8 is a "heresy" .....
in fact, everything depends on the futur of the F-35 ....
Personally, with an F-35 to $ 135 million
if it is canceled (or with MUCH less planes ordered )

Personnnaly, I opt instead for:
- 8/9 CVN
- 8/9 LHD
- 9 LPD
- 9 LDS

Best regard

[Unicorn]

Submarine Commander 'Misread Chart'
I don't know much about submarine operations but is the fact that the sub was struggling to reach 18 knots a bit worrying. i thought the Swifture should be capable of 25-30knots+?

Given the evidence in court, as listed in the article, the ship was suffering mechanical difficulties.

Captain Stuart Crozier, prosecuting, told the hearing that the submarine had been suffering from technical problems, causing it to lose speed, at the time of the incident in May 2008.

Unicorn

[Tango III]

Submarine programmes top SE Asian wish lists

Viewed from a maritime perspective, the countries of Southeast Asia are positioned between two regional powers – China and India – that have both the economic and demographic potential to achieve a global military status.

To the north, China is flexing its financial muscles and increasing the size and capabilities of both its surface and subsurface fleets; to the west, India is making slow but steady progress as it seeks to recapitalise its ageing fleet and establish an indigenous naval industrial complex.
Full Story

Vietnam has signed an agreement with Russia for the acquisition of six Kilo-class (Project 636) submarines.

[swerve]

Dramaticaly costly, expensive to maintain 2 ships class, nearly identical....

No. It would be expensive to have two completely different classes.

Two classes with the same propulsion, sensors, onboard equipment of all kinds & hull, but one with & one without a dock? Hardly any more expensive than one class.

If no more LHA-6 type ships are ordered, the USN will get just two ships without docks, to replace the two remaining Tarawa-class. There's no question of ordering 9 or 10 with docks, & the same number without. The USN orders the same total number of ships as originally planned. It currently has 8 LHDs, & is unlikely to replace them with a larger number of new ships.

[orko_8]

Progress in Turkey's Long-Delayed Frigate Program

By UMIT ENGINSOY And BURAK EGE BEKDIL
Published: 22 Mar 2010 16:49

ANKARA - Turkey has received responses to its January request for information from several foreign and domestic companies seeking to help build six anti-air frigates to a local design.

Turkey's defense procurement agency, the Undersecretariat for Defense Industries (SSM), obtained information on directed infrared countermeasures, electric generation and distribution systems, heating-ventilating-air conditioning, integrated platform management systems, laser directed/kinetic energy weapons, main propulsion systems and the naval gun system.

Officials declined to identify the companies that responded to the SSM's request.

The program is dubbed the TF-2000, or Turkish Frigate for the 21st Century. Officials expect the program to cost Ankara about $3 billion in today's prices; it will be completed in 10 to 12 years. The first ship is to enter service in 2018, one defense analyst said.

The program, originally planned in the late 1990s and shelved during the 2001 economic crisis, was resuscitated in 2006 by Turkey's top procurement body, the Defense Industry Executive Committee. The program was trimmed to six frigates from the proposed eight.

Officials now say the program has solid financing available.

The Navy's Turkish Naval Institute is working on the design, the country's first homegrown plan for a frigate. The program aims to bolster the Navy's air defense and operational capabilities using mostly domestic assets.

Turkey's Tuzla military shipyard in the country's northwest will build the six vessels, which will be equipped with state-of-the-art anti-missile and anti-aircraft air defense missile systems as well as other weapons.

Heavy foreign involvement and a large amount of technology transfer is expected in the program.

Naval warfare helicopters and UAVs also are planned to be deployed on the TF-2000s, which will displace more than 6,000 tons.

The Turkish Navy now operates 19 frigates, including U.S. Oliver Hazard Perry- and Knox-class and German Meko-class warships. Some of the older Knox-class frigates will be retired soon.

Turkey - expected to spend slightly more than $4 billion for defense procurement in 2010 - in recent years has focused on Navy programs, particularly their local design and development wherever possible.

Other top Navy projects include joint manufacture with Germany of six modern submarines and mostly local development and production of up to 12 corvettes.

The first ship in the Milgem-type corvette program, the TCG Heybeliada, was put to sea in late 2008 and is planned to be commissioned in 2011. Milgem, as a national naval development program, is seen as a precursor of the TF-2000.

http://www.defensenews.com/story.php...17&c=EUR&s=SEA