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Thread: Serbian Air Force has started lookig in to new fighters

  1. #121
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    What is the current status of this project?

  2. #122
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phantom71 View Post
    What is the current status of this project?
    Current status of project: Forget about it!

    Officially the Ministry is in ongoing negotiations with producer countries but in reality Serbia is in no position financially to progress with this. The only way forward would be to pay for new jets with a loan (probably from the producer country). If they did that I would be on the next plane back to Belgrade so I could get out onto the streets to protest against the move.
    Regards, Ivan

  3. #123
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    Quote Originally Posted by ink View Post
    Current status of project: Forget about it!

    Officially the Ministry is in ongoing negotiations with producer countries but in reality Serbia is in no position financially to progress with this. The only way forward would be to pay for new jets with a loan (probably from the producer country). If they did that I would be on the next plane back to Belgrade so I could get out onto the streets to protest against the move.
    Serbian Air force could use some F-4s to replace their MiG-21s. perhaps they can get them for cheap from their Ally, Turkey

  4. #124
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    what for?

    why do you want so bad that they change aircraft? for their current needs (air policing at most) even the Mig21 is enough

    and if they go for a modernisation, why buy an airframe that is probably just as old as their own aircraft, costs more to operate (especially as they'd have to train the whole maintainance system, while right now they can paintain Migs not only for themselves, but also for other countries who might need maintainance and don't go to russia for that), can't be used in their defence system (using unprepared terrains and such), and so on...?

  5. #125
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    Quote Originally Posted by J-20 Hotdog View Post
    Serbian Air force could use some F-4s to replace their MiG-21s. perhaps they can get them for cheap from their Ally, Turkey
    When did Turkey become an ally of Serbia? Something of a volte-face, eh?

    And F-4 would be totally pointless, as already said.
    Juris praecepta sunt haec: honeste vivere, alterum non laedere, suum cuique tribuere.
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  6. #126
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    I don´t think you can really call Turkey an ally of Serbia in any sense.
    But the current Serbian government seems to be on good terms with Turkey.

  7. #127
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    Quote Originally Posted by swerve View Post
    When did Turkey become an ally of Serbia? Something of a volte-face, eh?

    And F-4 would be totally pointless, as already said.
    Why hello there!

    Well I know it sounds crazy at first.. but gone are the days of Serbian militants assassinating the royalty of Turkey's close military ally as well as the days of a secular, pro-Israel Turkey.

    Many things have changed.. Turkey is now Islamic and anti-Israel, and Serbia welcomed close defense cooperation with Turkey in 2009 and a free trade relation between the two.. they are already thinking of having TAI outsource some production in Serbia due to cheaper labor.

    as for how F-4s would fit into the structure, well it could replace both the MiG-29, MiG-21 and Super Galebs due to its multi role nature. while its more expensive than any one type.. its cheaper than operating three types. Plus Turkish F-4s are up to date and modernized.

  8. #128
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    Turkey was willing to get friendly with Serbia when Serbia elected a government that repudiated past policies on Bosnia, & softened its anti-Kosovo stance. Remember the massacres of Moslems? Their relationship is entirely dependent on Serbia continuing to follow the right line. It's certainly not an alliance.

    Turkey can't sell Serbia either the aircraft, or spares, or AAMs to go with them, without US approval. Serbia would have to retrain everyone, buy complete new stocks of spares (disposing of current stocks), & put up with operating costs per hour far higher than for any of its existing types (especially the Super Galeb). How is this cheaper?

    The F-4 has the disadvantages of the current old types, plus its own extra drawbacks, without the advantages of a new type.
    Juris praecepta sunt haec: honeste vivere, alterum non laedere, suum cuique tribuere.
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  9. #129
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    +1

    Moreover Turkey now want to assume a leadership role across the Muslim World, and selling arms to Serbs will not look good in that respect.

    Serbia should buy the Eurofighter.
    Love Planes, Live Planes

  10. #130
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    S300 for give 'em hell.
    handful of FC-1 for air policing.

  11. #131
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    Quote Originally Posted by swerve View Post
    Turkey was willing to get friendly with Serbia when Serbia elected a government that repudiated past policies on Bosnia, & softened its anti-Kosovo stance. Remember the massacres of Moslems? Their relationship is entirely dependent on Serbia continuing to follow the right line. It's certainly not an alliance.

    Turkey can't sell Serbia either the aircraft, or spares, or AAMs to go with them, without US approval. Serbia would have to retrain everyone, buy complete new stocks of spares (disposing of current stocks), & put up with operating costs per hour far higher than for any of its existing types (especially the Super Galeb). How is this cheaper?

    The F-4 has the disadvantages of the current old types, plus its own extra drawbacks, without the advantages of a new type.
    Think of it this way,
    Serbia has about what.. 50-60 fixed wing combat jets? (MiG-29, MiG-21, Galeb). Reduce it down to 2 squadrons of upgraded F-4s that would be either sold for very cheap by Turkey or even donated. which would be cheaper in the long run? Also Serbia is a small country, it will be dependent on importing missiles from some one regardless.

    i.e:

    S-300s and FC-1s are cool, but Serbia wants to join the alliance that bombed them and your embassy. F-4s are already NATO compatable.

  12. #132
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    Quote Originally Posted by J-20 Hotdog View Post
    i.e:

    S-300s and FC-1s are cool, but Serbia wants to join the alliance that bombed them and your embassy. F-4s are already NATO compatable.
    So why the hell do they need an airforce.

    just use the money to bribe 24 US Senators.

  13. #133
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    Quote Originally Posted by i.e. View Post
    So why the hell do they need an airforce.

    just use the money to bribe 24 US Senators.
    :-) Agree with that Byzantine approach.

    With Kosovo bound to become NATO member, and Hungary raising issues with Serbia's EU accession, I wouldn't bet Serbia is going the Western path in military equipment.

    Flankers are cheap-ish when Russia has strategic interest ...

    For Serbia accepting Chinese models the Chinese would have to seriously increase their investments in Serbia; but even then I wouldn't see a compelling reason.
    "Distiller ... arrogant, ruthless, and by all reports (including his own) utterly charming"

  14. #134
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    Just forget it. Serbia doesn't have the money.

    And regarding Turkish F-4. Serbia was part of Otoman empire for quite some time. The the relations must still be good .
    I.

  15. #135
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    noo... you think that some 500 years of occupation may leave the occupied guys somewhat upset?

  16. #136
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    Well the most important things needed by Serbia is helicopters, hence the recent induction of some refurbished Mi-17. I can see further helicopter procurement taking priority. After that they have six elderly An-26 (2 in storage) in service which I can see them needing to replace as well.

    They are going to induct some new Lasta-95 which appears to be sensible to me. As for fast jets they are so far taking the sensible root and upgrading fifteen of their Soko G4, that would allow them to maintain a small cadre of jet qualified pilots.

    In the future I suppose it depends on what Croatia does, at the moment the Croatians are messing about with their new fighter procurement. If Croatia actually gets round to moving forward with a purchase I can see more public pressure is Serbia to move forward with some limited replacement of the Mig-21 and 29.
    Because sometimes in life we need a bit of fun

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  17. #137
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    Quote Originally Posted by J-20 Hotdog View Post
    Think of it this way,
    Serbia has about what.. 50-60 fixed wing combat jets? (MiG-29, MiG-21, Galeb). Reduce it down to 2 squadrons of upgraded F-4s that would be either sold for very cheap by Turkey or even donated. which would be cheaper in the long run? Also Serbia is a small country, it will be dependent on importing missiles from some one regardless.
    You're forgetting that they already have all those other aircraft, they have trained & experienced pilots & ground crews, stocks of spares, etc. Inducting a new type means replacing a lot of what they already have. That isn't free, even if there's no purchase price. And as I keep saying & you keep ignoring, the Turks can't give them anything without US permission.

    Two squadrons of F-4s would not only cost far more to induct & operate than keeping a few MiGs & maybe J-22s flying, but would be an increase in numbers, not a decrease.

    You're exaggerating the numbers of fast(ish) jets in the current inventory, ignoring the fact that most are of types built in country & for which they make a lot of their own spares (don't need to import), & forgetting that F-4s couldn't replace the G-4s because that would leave Serbia with no jet trainers. Fancy putting your pilots into Phantoms straight from Lasta-95s?


    Fedaykin's right. The current plan to modernise 15 of the G-4s is sensible, & probably the best policy for the moment.
    Last edited by swerve; 15th October 2011 at 19:03.
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  18. #138
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    Quote Originally Posted by swerve View Post
    You're forgetting that they already have all those other aircraft, they have trained & experienced pilots & ground crews, stocks of spares, etc. Inducting a new type means replacing a lot of what they already have. That isn't free, even if there's no purchase price. And as I keep saying & you keep ignoring, the Turks can't give them anything without US permission.

    Two squadrons of F-4s would not only cost far more to induct & operate than keeping a few MiGs & maybe J-22s flying, but would be an increase in numbers, not a decrease.

    You're exaggerating the numbers of fast(ish) jets in the current inventory, ignoring the fact that most are of types built in country & for which they make a lot of their own spares (don't need to import), & forgetting that F-4s couldn't replace the G-4s because that would leave Serbia with no jet trainers. Fancy putting your pilots into Phantoms straight from Lasta-95s?


    Fedaykin's right. The current plan to modernise 15 of the G-4s is sensible, & probably the best policy for the moment.
    Swerve, you are 90% right and I understand your points, you present quite logical arguements. Indeed its easier to retain the existing types of aircraft and continue buying Russian stock and support the Serbian industry (well I dont think they built any MiG-29s).
    but Serbia is not logical as you may imply. It wants to join NATO
    and yes it does perceive threats to its borders
    namely two:



    and

  19. #139
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    Quote Originally Posted by J-20 Hotdog View Post
    Swerve, you are 90% right and I understand your points, you present quite logical arguements. Indeed its easier to retain the existing types of aircraft and continue buying Russian stock and support the Serbian industry (well I dont think they built any MiG-29s).
    but Serbia is not logical as you may imply. It wants to join NATO
    and yes it does perceive threats to its borders
    namely two:



    and
    and

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    I can't tell what's wrong with her legs.... bad tan, molting, hair?
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    Even Berbatov would look better than that in a Bikini.
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    Probably a leg waxing that went wrong...?
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  23. #143
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    Talking

    Quote Originally Posted by J-20 Hotdog View Post
    Swerve, you are 90% right and I understand your points, you present quite logical arguements. Indeed its easier to retain the existing types of aircraft and continue buying Russian stock and support the Serbian industry (well I dont think they built any MiG-29s).
    but Serbia is not logical as you may imply. It wants to join NATO
    and yes it does perceive threats to its borders
    namely two:



    and
    wwoww that albanian girl looks beautiful

  24. #144
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    now abut thae topic.given the small serbian economy it cant purcace fighter like rafale anf tuphoon that cost nearly 100 mln per piece.most likely will chose russian jets mig-29smt or mig-35.AFAIK russian will lent mony to serbia to buy russian arms

  25. #145
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    Well they only have 4 Mig-29 and QRA is being maintained by 2 Mig-21. Actually Swerve has set me thinking,maybe they are better off getting more use out of the J-22. Its supersonic so it could be used in the QRA role with GCI. Purchase whats left of the Romanian IAR-93 spares and look to integrate an off the shelf IR missile. Not ideal but it can be entirely supported by their industry cheaply.

    I am strongly of the opinion that Croatia won't accept the German offer of surplus F4 Phantom, they would have to be insane to take on an obsolete expensive to run twin engine heavy fighter.
    Last edited by Fedaykin; 16th October 2011 at 19:18.
    Because sometimes in life we need a bit of fun

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  26. #146
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikoyan1991 View Post
    now abut thae topic.given the small serbian economy it cant purcace fighter like rafale anf tuphoon that cost nearly 100 mln per piece.most likely will chose russian jets mig-29smt or mig-35.AFAIK russian will lent mony to serbia to buy russian arms
    If Russia was going to loan Serbia money to buy Migs or Sukhois they would of done it by now. Frankly whats in it for Russia? Serbia isn't exactly rich in resources Russia needs.
    Because sometimes in life we need a bit of fun

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TXNAp3mKepc

  27. #147
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    Quote Originally Posted by SpudmanWP View Post
    I can't tell what's wrong with her legs.... bad tan, molting, hair?
    I agree! I much prefer the qualities of Miss Albania there or should I say the future Mrs Fedaykin:diablo:
    Because sometimes in life we need a bit of fun

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TXNAp3mKepc

  28. #148
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    Yeah. Definitely Albania 1, Bulgaria 0.
    Juris praecepta sunt haec: honeste vivere, alterum non laedere, suum cuique tribuere.
    Justinian

  29. #149
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    That Albanian Miss has maybe 3-4 more years of relatively bright future before she ends up overweight... unless she does something really serious... it's pretty obvious.

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    CATIC, the state owned corporation in charge of export of all things aerospace in the PRC have proven to be fairly 'inventive' with exports in the past, offering aircraft for resources, mining rights, or giving loans to pay for aircraft to many African and South Asian countries. And not strictly aerospace but often times fleets of new vehicles are 'donated' to 3rd poorer countries in exchange for maintenance contracts. The JF-17 is programmed in C++ rather than ADA and the sale of European (Thales, Thomas, FIAR) have already been bandied about long enough to know that they're perfectly compatible. The problem with getting a Western or even a Chinese aircraft that uses indigenous weapons systems is training, supply, maintenance as pointed out by swerve already. A stockpile of new ordinance would need to be ordered. Pilots would need access to new ground based simulators to familiarize themselves or even travel orverseas to train or to have foriegn trainers paid to come to Serbia. Long term contracts would need gone over for maintenance and spares (an example of one of these that went horribly wrong was the Frnco-Taiwanese deal...). Communications systems changed or updated etc. etc. One of the last orders for the Chengdu F-7 was to Nigeria who spent $251 million USD on 12 F-7NI single seat fighters and 3 FT-7NI trainers. While its safe to assume a chunk of that is probably graft, that price included weapons, training etc. so starting from scratch from used F-4s or shiny new JF-17s is not always the cheapest way to go about business.

    In late 2008 Russia was willing to give Lebanon 10 MiG-29s for free (which was eventually turned down), obviously there was a catch 22 on this deal (maintenance, training, weapons etc., nothing is 'free' in real life unfortunately) but if Serbia were to be offered a similar deal I'd say it would be cheaper overall to continue using Russian aircraft. While the J-22 could be supplemented with cannibalized IAR-93 parts from Romania, theres not much that can be said on what could be picked apart that would be useful to the J-22, it would be a real dogs dinner. With more years of wear and tear on the J-22s the airframes will start to be a problem, scrap or no scraps.

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