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Thread: Serbian Air Force has started lookig in to new fighters

  1. #31
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    The Fighter Effect
    High-performance jet aircraft are unique in the arsenals of world air forces. More than any other weapon—except possibly the aircraft carrier—air-to-air fighters represent power. They have a symbolic effect far outweighing their actual military utility, and for good reason. They are sleek. They are loud. They look and sound like state power. Many nations buy pricey fighter squadrons for their prestige value alone.

    http://the-diplomat.com/2010/03/05/u...ian-arms-race/

    And how things can change over night.....

    http://www.earthtimes.org/articles/s...f-weapons.html
    Last edited by GrM; 7th March 2010 at 18:53.

  2. #32
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    As far as new aircraft go, I'd agree with proponents of the JF-17 as an affordable Chinese export fighter.

    Not sure what Sino-Serbian relations are like these days.....
    As Theodore Roosevelt said:
    "Talk softly, but carry a big stick"

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    Sino-Serbian relations are quite good , but I do not think it will go that far .

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    Quote Originally Posted by StAndrea View Post
    Well, I was writing about NA as a project and an airframe in development, like Rafale was in that time. Thus very important for future of both airspace industries, and relevant for today's story and market. NA cannot be made in Serbia, it's been 25 years from start of that project their engineers and technicians are not working for military or they are retired or dead. And NATO had very successful reorientation programs for high tech weapons engineers in eastern Europe after their economies and companies fell to pieces, insuring they will not work for third parties.

    Nevertheless Mirage 2000 is sadly very good example of inherent problems of France military airspace program. It's no doubt machine with supreme characteristic, but it's sales failed to cache it's practical value. I will not go into this issue making thread in thread, I'll just say, very bad business model, slow adaptability, non competitive price.
    The thing is, M2K's failure had an effect on Rafale too. M2K's evolution ended too early, unlike for instance F-16's, which even though it was developed a decade earlier, it is still in production nonetheless. If the same was with M2K, France would have two excellent frontline fighters, suitable for more budgets.

    Military airplane in class of Gripen but cheaper, supported by France as co-seller and Franch technology, sold by Yugoslavia as neutral country (insuring some hostile markets) probably would have been very good seller.
    Or maybe not, we'll never know. Personally, I think the French would have stuck their nose too deep and too much, so as to control its export prospectives. I can hardly think of them agreeing in promoting the NA where M2K or Rafale would be candidate too.

    On this topic, my opinion is, they wont buy non of these planes in next ~7-10 years unless someone give them planes for free. But that will not happen.
    Yes, but if Serbia is serious about buying new fighters, this is not going to happen any time sooner anyway. In order to begin the procedure, valuate candidates, select one and negotiate the procurement, would take several years as it is. And of course, Serbia would get loans to pay them off, so current economic status is somewhat irrelevant.

    if USA didn't give cheap F-16s to their NATO members on Balkans, why would they give them to Serbia ?
    I will agree with this part. It's the most obvious reason for Serbia not getting F-16s, too many people waiting in line for second hand falcons. Why should Serbia be any different?

    Quote Originally Posted by GrM View Post
    Sino-Serbian relations are quite good , but I do not think it will go that far .
    I wonder how willing the Serbians would be to sell the NA to Taiwan, had it gone into production... Some people believe they, being neutral, would be willing to sell it to everyone. :diablo:
    Last edited by HAWX ace; 8th March 2010 at 00:49.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Griffon39 View Post
    Nopse, Gripen is what Serbia needs, (Any US equipbent schould be outof the question). And given our countries rather good/good relations Im sure a fair price could be negotiated. Throw in two or thre SAAB-EriEye and Serbia can once again dominate the Balcans (save Greece. Wich is an allie anyway).
    Are you Serbian or Swedish ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by DJ. View Post
    ... Even at the height of Yugoslav airospace industry.. Engines were always imported or build under licence. If Sweeden could not develop indigenous engine... well need i say more.
    if you believe Swedes on this forum and others I've been to, they didn't develop an indigenous turbofan only because of the economics, not because they didn't have the knowhow and technological capability.

  7. #37
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    Throw in two or thre SAAB-EriEye and Serbia can once again dominate the Balcans
    Well thats all Serbia was missing from dominating the Balkans...an air force

    As a matter of fact Serbia is better without Kosovo
    Now that thats been cleared up...we can move on.

  8. #38
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    I don't think that the idea of restarting the NA project is viable any more. It's simply too late for that, plus the money factor would be a huge obstacle that both countries together wouldn't be able to overtake. But as somebody said, if all that chaos hasn't occurred in the Balkans during 90ies, and the project had been finalized, IMO the NA would have had a fair chance of succeeding on the market of the 3rd world and independent countries.

    Speaking of the current situation of getting a new plane for the SrAF, well, this gets as a surprise to me (if they are being serious this time). The MoD has been talking of the purchase for a couple of years but nothing concrete ever happened. The lack of money and negligence of politicians have always hampered plans of the SrAF.

    The modernization of 4 Fulcrums (one of them was an UB) was undertaken in secrecy (as most details were never revealed) and a great deal of money was paid to refurbish and insignificantly modernize those birds. For something in a range of $21-28 mil.(contradictory reports were issued on the cost of modernization). For that amount of money I would expect them to be brought to the SMT standard (but they are far cry from it). One of those MiG's crashed during a preparation for an airshow killing one of the most experience pilots in the air force. The fifth Fulcrum was slated to be modernized later (but we haven't heard anything happening in regard to this yet).

    Back to the topic, I fully agree with GrM and his assessment of the MiG-35 having the highest chances in this contest. So, if the current geopolitical climate remains unchanged and the SrAF and MoD continue with this process seriously, the MiG may continue cooperation with its (now) small and modest but loyal customer.

    Quote Originally Posted by GrM View Post
    To be honest , best choice would be to rent few MiG and wait till PAK-FA is available and if politics and price is right go with such option .If you are spending money on something that you will use for next 30 40 years , and you can not afford more then 10 - 12 airframes it would be better to wait for next 10 years , work on improving economy and buy some serious piece of aircraft that will add significant fire power and capability.
    Beside all this PR talk of Pogo guy about PAK-FA being exported out of Russia and India I really don’t see that happening (at least not before 2025). And Serbia doesn’t seem like the promising customer for this bird (not speaking here of loyalty but rather about proximity of NATO countries and bases).

    Quote Originally Posted by EELightning View Post
    Meh...Who cares, give'em a bunch of crappy old F-16's or F-5's...they can buy them in ModelZone here in the UK for about £12.99...Only down side you gotta build them yourself. Thats all they deserve anyway IMO.
    That was not nice of you at all. DJ was contributing while your post can just serve to start a flaimewar. I can assume why you’re saying so and I could also assume that you are not aware of history of the Balkans and that most of what you have heard comes from the mainstream media. And if I would tell you, a couple of certain NATO countries, what we think you deserve (not the population but the leadership) then we would have one nasty discussion.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kapedani View Post
    Well thats all Serbia was missing from dominating the Balkans...an air force
    I assume he was thinking of the pre 1991 period

    Quote Originally Posted by Kapedani View Post
    Now that thats been cleared up...we can move on.
    Music for your ears. To move on, but which way first: Eastern Montenegro, Southern Serbia, FYROM or Northern Greece:diablo:

  9. #39
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    MiG-35, J-10, JAS-39. The rest - a can of political worms.

    Sweden is not EU in a menaingful security sense, Hungary flies it.

    Is the MiG-35 ready?

    And the biggest question of all: Are the Chinese ready? What a chance! Right into the soft belly of the EU. I'd give 24 J-10 for free. It would be worth it!
    "Distiller ... arrogant, ruthless, and by all reports (including his own) utterly charming"

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    Even dough it will sound like business paradox, I would say that Chinese are in position that allows them to be indifferent in this case.
    Their history of non-promoting their fighters on eastern European market is obvious.

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    slightly distorted vison of reality it seems... and quite outside the subject too...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Distiller View Post
    MiG-35, J-10, JAS-39. The rest - a can of political worms.

    Sweden is not EU in a menaingful security sense, Hungary flies it.
    Gripen would be ideal, provided uncle Sam does not put any obstacle to its export. OTOH, the other obvious reason for Serbia not getting it, is Croatia getting it, especially Croatia getting it first. Saab would be thrilled to sell to both sides of course, but not the Serbs;

    Quote Originally Posted by StAndrea View Post
    Even dough it will sound like business paradox, I would say that Chinese are in position that allows them to be indifferent in this case.
    Their history of non-promoting their fighters on eastern European market is obvious.
    Obvious? Are you sure? Such as in the case of Albania maybe?
    Last edited by HAWX ace; 8th March 2010 at 20:42.

  13. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by HAWX ace View Post
    Gripen would be ideal, provided uncle does not put any obstacle to its export. OTOH, the other obvious reason for Serbia not getting it, is Croatia getting it, especially Croatia getting it first. Saab would be thrilled to sell to both sides of course, but not the Serbs;



    Since joining NATO Croats seem to be giving up on concept of combat aviation , an opinion not without its supporters in Serbia as well.

  14. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by DJ. View Post
    Since joining NATO Croats seem to be giving up on concept of combat aviation , an opinion not without its supporters in Serbia as well.
    Of course, that's an option, but it remains to be seen.

    I must admit it makes sense though. Why bother paying to set up an air force and its infrastructure when you can have stupid Greeks and Italians policing you airspace for free?

    If Croatia however does get some modern jets, Serbia will have no option but to follow. And when it does follow, it can't possibly be with the same type the Croatians will get (unless if it's F-16s for free), just for prestige reasons.

  15. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kapedani View Post
    Well thats all Serbia was missing from dominating the Balkans...an air force



    Now that thats been cleared up...we can move on.
    Kapendi , Serbia , even today ahs the most advanced Air Force of the all former Yugoslav republics . Slovenia is flying turbo props good only for COIN duties . Croatia has only few MiG-21bis , BiH no operational combat jets and jets that belong to RS will most likely go to Serbia .Monte Negro has G-4 left but has no money to operate them so they will most likely go to Serbia .Macedonia had Su-25 but under NATO political pressure had to return all of them to Ukraine (a bit embarrassing if you ask me )

    Only Greece , Romania and Bulgaria have credible AF ...rest of Balkan countries have Air Force but no or very few fast jets .

    Serbia still have fighter force (mix of MiG-21bis and Mig-29) ,J-22 in ground / rece role , G-4 as training / ground attack and very soon Lasta 95 as trainer.

    Not bad for country of only 9 million people , and if you take Kosovo out most likely around 7 - 71/2 million , country that went head to head with Air Force's of many NATO countries .

    Serbia will , sooner or later , for the reasons of national pride , geo politics and geo strategy update its Air Force. All evidence is there , radar network is upgraded and modernised , SAM systems are being modernised , design of smart weapons is under way so next logical step is to bring SrAF to its full strength.

    Even if Serbia one day joins NATO or any other security and defence organisation , is in it better to join as as equal partner (as much as possible) or as country that can not maintain its contractual obligations?

  16. #46
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    i dont think gripen will be sold to serbia due to the conflicts in recent years. i think russian hardware is normally used here.

    Croatia will probably get them first in a exchange deal with icebreakers!? (on the table) So, no Gripen for Serbia.
    Last edited by Sign; 8th March 2010 at 22:51.

  17. #47
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    @Hawk ace

    I think that relations between Mao Zedong's China and communist Albania are irrelevant from our current point in time.

    Why bother paying to set up an air force and its infrastructure when you can have stupid Greeks and Italians policing you airspace for free?
    There's no such thing as free lunch.
    And most definitely, there's no such thing as free airspace policing. Quite opposite, that service is very expensive one. I didn't understand why did you address Greeks and Italians as stupid ?

    SAAB has 4 (3 of them NATO members,Russian jets operators) Balkan states as potential buyers (correct me if I'm wrong). And SAAB is most agile and aggressive seller, that's my impression.
    Non-NATO member have disadvantage buying NATO (top) equipment, I would say especially in case of Serbia, where NATO forces govern part of it's territory.

    On other side logical answer would be MiG-29 family, but MiG-35 is technically non existing airplane.

    Which makes discussion interesting in hypotetical realm.
    Solution of pussle will depend on future of it's politics (relations with NATO) and economy in conjuction with Russian and Chinese forign politics.

    @Sign
    If Sweden was one to make decision, they would certainly sell Jas-39, but they are not calling the shots. Well when you read the facts, democratic pro western government, future EU member, part of numerous NATO programs, Tiger meet this year, Serbia at least on paper validates as buyer of western equipment. I follow news from international military exercises and shows, I don't remember seeing RuAF in Serbia of RuAF collaborating with Serbian AF, on contrary different NATO AirForces including USAF made friendly visits to Serbia's ABs. But politics of that region and US politics goes much deeper...
    Last edited by StAndrea; 8th March 2010 at 23:21.

  18. #48
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    F-16? Serbia favors former invaders? I don't think so.

    Fighters from NATO countries too politically risky.

  19. #49
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    ts easy... where ever buissines of heroin trade,sex slavery, kidnapping people and ripping out their organs... is active and profitable.
    America? Silly.

    There's no such thing as free lunch.
    And most definitely, there's no such thing as free airspace policing. Quite opposite, that service is very expensive one.
    Who is paying for it? Not the ones being patrolled.

  20. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by StAndrea View Post
    @Hawk ace

    I think that relations between Mao Zedong's China and communist Albania are irrelevant from our current point in time.
    So, China actually does have a history of promoting fighters to eastern Europe. Glad we got that clear.

    There's no such thing as free lunch.
    And most definitely, there's no such thing as free airspace policing. Quite opposite, that service is very expensive one.
    That's odd. I don't recall HAF receiving a bank check for its services. And one cannot claim Albania is repaying us in terms of military or political cooperation either. Last week the new Turkish submarine base in Albania was inaugurated, and last month albanian court canceled a bilateral deal mutually agreed upon for EEZ in common adriatic waters.

    I didn't understand why did you address Greeks and Italians as stupid ?
    It's obvious.

    SAAB has 4 (3 of them NATO members,Russian jets operators) Balkan states as potential buyers (correct me if I'm wrong). And SAAB is most agile and aggressive seller, that's my impression.
    There are three countries in Balkans which are NATO members, and two which have been accepted and are in the process of acquiring full membership. While Gripen does not stand a chance in Greece, it does have good potential in Romania, Bulgaria and Croatia. Saab is as agressive as BAE allows it to be.

    Non-NATO member have disadvantage buying NATO (top) equipment, I would say especially in case of Serbia, where NATO forces govern part of it's territory.
    Only a few NATO members and a few MNNA receive top american (NATO that is) equipment. Let alone countries like Serbia.

    On other side logical answer would be MiG-29 family, but MiG-35 is technically non existing airplane.
    If by "non existing" you mean that there is none in operational status with any air force, it's as much true as it is irrelevant. The same equally applies to F-35. SFW?

  21. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by GrM View Post
    As sarcastic as you might be ..no Serbia will never assemble something as complex as that ...it would be stupid.

    As far as being land locked , surrounded with NATO , impotent as Albania.....few facts....
    Serbia even now has one of most modern and best trained armed forces in that region , especially when it comes to ground forces.
    http://www.focus-fen.net/index.php?id=n212028

    Serbia has no intention expanding in to anything.
    As a matter of fact Serbia is better without Kosovo , it was just financial drain on state resources.

    However nothing last forever...all of these alliances and empires sooner or later come to an end ...so will NATO one day .What will come instead of it , your guess is as good as mine .....new pan Europe alliance , chaos ...who knows .

    That is why Serbia is neutral (among other things ) and that is why it will maintain credible military force like peace loving Switzerland ...you never know what will happen in 10 , 20 or 30 years time.

    As far as your reference to 1999 war , it is clear you do not know details of that war , and why MiG-29 performed badly .To understand you would need to understand Serbian politics , in detail , between 1991 and 1999 ....relation between state and military and state and police .....who was more important and who was better financed , who was in command of Air Force and how those people where thinking , was it more important to kiss presidents rear end or to stand ground and get what was necessary to defend country , make sure that units receive all training and spare parts that where necessary and so on and so on ....I have no intention to educate you , it would take too much of my time to do that.
    lol, look at you go off at something you mis-read. Why not re-read it once more.
    I said that the neighbors of Serbia are either at peace with Serbia or have impotent air forces (aka. Albania).
    Also like it or not, your country's air force can barely maintain the 10 MiG-29s it currently has. Perhaps you don't want to hear Serbia picking up something small and not so powerful like an JF-17, but it makes better sense for a landlocked country like Serbia, along with more dual use trainers/light strike like a Yak-130. There's a reason why the other Balkan countries also have simple air forces.
    You may want to see some brand new fighters to show off to your neighbors but the fact is, Serbia's economy is worse than Slovenia and Croatia, both of which do not have large air forces.

    On a more serious note, the tejas is also an option. It can use your Russian missiles, and the F404 engine in it is probably more reliable and cheaper to maintain than the Klimovs in the JF-17.

  22. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by HAWX ace View Post
    Of course, that's an option, but it remains to be seen.

    I must admit it makes sense though. Why bother paying to set up an air force and its infrastructure when you can have stupid Greeks and Italians policing you airspace for free?

    If Croatia however does get some modern jets, Serbia will have no option but to follow. And when it does follow, it can't possibly be with the same type the Croatians will get (unless if it's F-16s for free), just for prestige reasons.
    That is not stupid, but in the intrest of both countries too. Greece was and is a main receiver of military assistance programs by the NATO f.e. and has an option to justify it in that case.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Edge View Post
    if you believe Swedes on this forum and others I've been to, they didn't develop an indigenous turbofan only because of the economics, not because they didn't have the knowhow and technological capability.
    Whatever the claim about that were. From RR Goblin to GE F404 the Swedes did not spent billions to develop that, but used the money to produce the related hardware and adapting it for the national specifications. Similar thing with missiles and other main items. In most cases they did buy the knowhow and the tools in need to cover the basic needs.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sens View Post
    That is not stupid, but in the intrest of both countries too. Greece was and is a main receiver of military assistance programs by the NATO f.e. and has an option to justify it in that case.
    Geeez!!! So Greece was and is a main receiver of military assistance programs by the NATO! I could have never thought of that!! Thanx for opening my eyes!

    Now, since you clearly don't have a clue about the military assistance Greece receives (or rather doesn't receive) in at least the last ten years, and given that this not a Greece related topic, I'll rest my case.

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    Quote Originally Posted by StAndrea View Post
    @Hawk ace


    @Sign
    If Sweden was one to make decision, they would certainly sell Jas-39, but they are not calling the shots. Well when you read the facts, democratic pro western government, future EU member, part of numerous NATO programs, Tiger meet this year, Serbia at least on paper validates as buyer of western equipment. I follow news from international military exercises and shows, I don't remember seeing RuAF in Serbia of RuAF collaborating with Serbian AF, on contrary different NATO AirForces including USAF made friendly visits to Serbia's ABs. But politics of that region and US politics goes much deeper...
    Serbia is indeed a democratic republic with EU ambitions, but region is not still totaly free from conflicts. An thats whats bothering a swedish sell of weapons. Erieye would not be a problem, but a weaponplatform is.
    I dont say sweden call the shots but the have in a possible sell.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sens View Post
    Whatever the claim about that were. From RR Goblin to GE F404 the Swedes did not spent billions to develop that, but used the money to produce the related hardware and adapting it for the national specifications. Similar thing with missiles and other main items. In most cases they did buy the knowhow and the tools in need to cover the basic needs.
    about 60% of the RM12 is volvo aero interlectual property. Even parts of the standard F414 is.

  27. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sign View Post
    about 60% of the RM12 is volvo aero interlectual property. Even parts of the standard F414 is.
    Maybe. 60% is a number only, when it does not incorporate the critical elements of an engine, like the hot-section. The present R12 is a tweaked F404 from the F-20 program and superseded by the F414 for years. Just that proven engine was selected for the Gripen NG. By the way the people from GE did help the Swedes to overcome the power-drops and some unstable behavior of the R12 at first. At that time-scale the West had all intrest to support the Swedes in having strong armed forces.

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    @Sign
    Thrust me, possible conflict zone only spells cache opportunity for any weapons seller. Humanity and weapons sellers do not go into same sentence, as much as they would like to promote themselves as such .
    Obsticle in this case could be politics.

    @Hawk
    As I sad there's no free launch, it's just question who is paying it. Chiefs of your AF certainly are not doing it for free because they are stupid, there's more profound reason...
    Regarding air policing, Slovenia and Macedonia certainly are paying it to Italy and Bulgaria, numbers must be in euro millions.

    F35 is in production, awaited by it's buyers.

    What do you think about possibility of buying second hand refurbished MiG-29s ?

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    Not to go off topic but...

    Last week the new Turkish submarine base in Albania was inaugurated,
    Thats entirely untrue. A Turkish submarine made a port visit to Durres. Thats about it. Did Greek media actually report this as something else?

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    Red face

    Quote Originally Posted by StAndrea View Post
    @Hawk
    As I sad there's no free launch, it's just question who is paying it. Chiefs of your AF certainly are not doing it for free because they are stupid, there's more profound reason...
    Regarding air policing, Slovenia and Macedonia certainly are paying it to Italy and Bulgaria, numbers must be in euro millions.
    It's not HAF chiefs that decide, but rather their political supervisor, HAF chiefs only follow orders, or they are "resigned" and go home. And arguably both current and previous governments have actually done some really stupid things in foreign affairs. You need to do a little research beforehand if you are serious in posting about this specific issue.

    F35 is in production, awaited by it's buyers.
    F-35 is not in production; Furthermore, while I don't share the claims that due to major development and financial problems it faces it could even be scrapped, I think it can equally compare to the MiG-35 in terms of sales possibility (possibility, not numbers). In fact, I think it will be much faster and easier for a country to buy and induct MiG-35s than F-35s, as the former is based on an existing proven design.

    What do you think about possibility of buying second hand refurbished MiG-29s?
    My guess is as good as everyone else' in here. Personally, I think it's a strong possibility.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kapedani View Post
    Not to go off topic but...

    Thats entirely untrue. A Turkish submarine made a port visit to Durres. Thats about it. Did Greek media actually report this as something else?
    You are wrong, it is very true, doesn't have to do with greek media. But given that you are right on the off topic part, you can believe whatever you want anyway.

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