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Thread: The PAK-FA saga Episode 12.0

  1. #1
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    The PAK-FA saga Episode 12.0

    Here we go again...

    Links to previous threads: Pick up chips, pop corn and cola and enjoy!

    So, where were we? Ah, discussing about Mr. Kopp's latest views on the PAK-FA:

    http://www.ausairpower.net/APA-2010-01.html

    Edit:

    You expect way too much. Kopp has become an univeersal dissing tool for all forum nobodies who need to spill their glass of frustration on someone other's head. Among US fans it has become some kind of fancy - either you call Kopp an idiot or you aren't in our gang. Pathetic bunch of losers... I still wait for a single one of them to disprove him
    Maybe I do. For the time being, he is the best source on the F-35 so far, in the sense that he presents the thing's overall picture. I, as a reader, want to read about something, especially its weaknesses. I want to know what it can't do, not what it can do, I have not much interest in reading about its abilities and how wonderful it is, I can always go to the manufacturer's site for that.

    The same goes for the PAK-FA of course. Though it's too early, I don't want to see it presented as the ultimate fearsome demon.
    Last edited by HAWX ace; 17th February 2010 at 18:47.

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    Well, if Mr. Kopp is really disgusted with the F-35 and the F-22 is not for sales, he should start to lobby for Australia to buy the PAK FA.

    It will be a real funny mess to see squadrons of Su-50MKA flying for Australia and a real slap in the face of LM.

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    I hadn't noticed the degree of the VLO faceting of the intake 'trunks' before. Which begs the question, what are they going to do with the rounded bare engine metal areas? Bolt on the RAM, or is it a works in progress?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rodolfo View Post
    Well, if Mr. Kopp is really disgusted with the F-35 and the F-22 is not for sales, he should start to lobby for Australia to buy the PAK FA.

    It will be a real funny mess to see squadrons of Su-50MKA flying for Australia and a real slap in the face of LM.
    What he'd likely get is stuck with is Super Hornets for the next 30 years. It would almost be worth it just to see the look on his face. :diablo:
    “A government that robs Peter to pay Paul can always depend on the support of Paul.” - George Bernard Shaw

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    Quote Originally Posted by Otaku View Post
    I hadn't noticed the degree of the VLO faceting of the intake 'trunks' before. Which begs the question, what are they going to do with the rounded bare engine metal areas? Bolt on the RAM, or is it a works in progress?
    Maybe both?

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    Photo is not fake - it is sent to Russia's press by Sukhoi company. Maxim Pyadushkin some reason put it on AW's blog.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sferrin View Post
    What he'd likely get is stuck with is Super Hornets for the next 30 years. It would almost be worth it just to see the look on his face. :diablo:
    The smart thing of course, is to do like India. buy a 50/50 mix of F-18 and PAKFA.

    Russia is after all not a natural adversary to Australia.

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    The smart thing of course, is to do like India. buy a 50/50 mix of F-18 and PAKFA.

    Russia is after all not a natural adversary to Australia.
    Will Russia sells PAK FA to Australia considering the Aussie friendship with the States? May be Su-34 makes more sense, in order to replace the venerable F-111. May be Mr. Kopp will not be happy on this, but what about a 50:50 mix of F-35 and Su-34?

    PAK FA will be available for India,... so far

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    Size comparison (in scale).
    Attached Images Attached Images  
    Last edited by Matej; 17th February 2010 at 21:29.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rodolfo View Post
    Will Russia sells PAK FA to Australia considering the Aussie friendship with the States? May be Su-34 makes more sense, in order to replace the venerable F-111. May be Mr. Kopp will not be happy on this, but what about a 50:50 mix of F-35 and Su-34?

    PAK FA will be available for India,... so far
    My post of course has a bit of trolling in it. But not to create disagrement, but rather to look at merits of different designs.

    the SU-50/34, in terms of design and performance looks to be better suited for Australia's needs.

    This of course is dependent on my scepticism of the F-35 in the air to air role. USA and it allies has a lot hanging on it, and the Russian combo looks like a killer to me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pegon View Post
    My post of course has a bit of trolling in it. But not to create disagrement, but rather to look at merits of different designs.

    the SU-50/34, in terms of design and performance looks to be better suited for Australia's needs.

    This of course is dependent on my scepticism of the F-35 in the air to air role. USA and it allies has a lot hanging on it, and the Russian combo looks like a killer to me.

    Uhm.. Why are you going about debating the Su-34 & Su-50 export..

    First of all the Su-50 will not be on sales for anybody but India.
    After say 2020 perhaps they export it to others, but with a downgraded version.

    And the Su-34..?
    AFAIK the Su-34 have not been up for export promotion yet.
    I think it will have the same export restriction as the Mig-31 had back in Soviet days..


    Thanks

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    Quote Originally Posted by Matej View Post
    Size comparison (in scale).

    The frontal curves of the T-50 are absolutly Stunning
    A real beauty.




    Thanks

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    Quote Originally Posted by haavarla View Post
    Uhm.. Why are you going about debating the Su-34 & Su-50 export..

    First of all the Su-50 will not be on sales for anybody but India.
    After say 2020 perhaps they export it to others, but with a downgraded version.

    And the Su-34..?
    AFAIK the Su-34 have not been up for export promotion yet.
    I think it will have the same export restriction as the Mig-31 had back in Soviet days..


    Thanks
    As i suggest in my last post, the question is is teoretical, to discuss the merits of the designs. your reply is therefore beside the point.

    We both know that Australia will not be buying a Russian design in the forseeable future.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sferrin View Post
    If by "other" you mean other than air combat related I'd agree. As for "truther", look it up. Flex is on record as saying he thinks 9/11 was an inside job done with explosives. If the shoe fits. . .
    Wow, looks like it still robs your goodnight sleep

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    On request - YF-23A added.
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    Quote Originally Posted by haavarla View Post
    First of all the Su-50 will not be on sales for anybody but India.
    Say what? Su-35 and MiG-35 won't last forever.

    After say 2020 perhaps they export it to others, but with a downgraded version.
    Well, Indian FGFA will be the first downgraded export version.

    AFAIK the Su-34 have not been up for export promotion yet.
    I think it will have the same export restriction as the Mig-31 had back in Soviet days..
    What are the reasons not to sell Su-34 (in export variant, of course) if someone wants it?

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    Quote Originally Posted by flex297 View Post
    Wow, looks like it still robs your goodnight sleep
    Not at all. Just a source of mild amusement.
    “A government that robs Peter to pay Paul can always depend on the support of Paul.” - George Bernard Shaw

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    Im amazed to read the the Kopp "bashing" has gone and now we actually discussing his views insteading of tearing them to shreads!!!!!

    Guys I applaud you!!!!

    On the subject of Australia, it has been mentioned many times over that the SU-30 series was on the short list for Australia back in 2000. We were even offered a licence to build!!!

    The F35 was never offered or even made a bid during the request for tender. The Government simply scrapped the whole tender process and said, we are buying into the F-35 program.....
    We are 100% SNAFU

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    Quote Originally Posted by haavarla View Post
    Uhm.. Why are you going about debating the Su-34 & Su-50 export..

    First of all the Su-50 will not be on sales for anybody but India.
    WTF...
    Sukhoi already offered my nation (Indonesia) govt their 'future plane'.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rsetiawan View Post
    WTF...
    Sukhoi already offered my nation (Indonesia) govt their 'future plane'.
    It's sure that Sukhoi want to make as much money as they can from this beautiful bird. The important question left to be answered is whether or not they want renminbi.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Matej View Post
    On request - YF-23A added.
    Nice pics but not sure that PAK-FA is as wide as that

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    When was Indonesia offered the T-50? Indonesia needed a Russian loan just to buy the few Flankers it has ordered.

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    Guys - stop calling it the damn Su-50. If it was the Su-50 then the Su-27 would've been called the bloody Su-10. Its totally wrong. As a Military Aviation forum, I expect higher standards from all involved.

    You should know that all Russian fighters are given odd numbered suffixes. Not even numbered. The only exception to this rule that I can think of is the Tu-95, which was originally Tu-20 anyway.

    If I had to guess, its designation will be Su-51- Su-47 and Su-49 are technically taken and it wouldn't make sense to undercut those designations and name it Su-41, Su-43 or Su-45.

    That one of the prototypes is now Blue 51 may be a clue for this.

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    Quote Originally Posted by soyuz1917 View Post
    When was Indonesia offered the T-50? Indonesia needed a Russian loan just to buy the few Flankers it has ordered.
    when we sign the latest batch of flanker, as a i've said, they ask the airforce brass if we want 'future planes'...Of course it is not serious yet, it seems they just want to make sure there will be vast export market when the time come

    loan.for administration and budget stuff...
    Actually there is still disagreement concerning loan, so we paying Sukhoi with our money (which is why we purchase them by very small batches of 2-4). loan just paying methods, US often give them too in one package with FMS....
    at least our economy is waaaaaaay better than nation like Ethiopia who also bought flanker :diablo:
    Last edited by rsetiawan; 18th February 2010 at 05:10.

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    The Su-34 is available for export (decontented export version of course).
    The amount of decontenting will depend on which country will be buying it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by soyuz1917 View Post
    When was Indonesia offered the T-50? Indonesia needed a Russian loan just to buy the few Flankers it has ordered.
    And your point is...? Most countries get loans to buy military hardware, nobody has enough monetary fluidity to pay in cash. Even the Arabs buy via FMS mostly...

    Quote Originally Posted by Vympel View Post
    Guys - stop calling it the damn Su-50. If it was the Su-50 then the Su-27 would've been called the bloody Su-10. Its totally wrong. As a Military Aviation forum, I expect higher standards from all involved.

    You should know that all Russian fighters are given odd numbered suffixes. Not even numbered. The only exception to this rule that I can think of is the Tu-95, which was originally Tu-20 anyway.

    If I had to guess, its designation will be Su-51- Su-47 and Su-49 are technically taken and it wouldn't make sense to undercut those designations and name it Su-41, Su-43 or Su-45.

    That one of the prototypes is now Blue 51 may be a clue for this.
    How about Su-22, Su-24, Su-30, Su-34, Yak-38 and Tu-28?? Are they not russian fighters?

    I agree it's premature to assign a number though, when not even Sukhoi has, officially anyway.
    Last edited by HAWX ace; 18th February 2010 at 07:00.

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    Quote Originally Posted by HAWX ace View Post
    How about Su-22, Su-24, Su-30, Su-34, Yak-38 and Tu-28?? Are they not russian fighters?

    I agree it's premature to assign a number though, when not even Sukhoi has, officially anyway.
    I think what Vympel refers to is the first aircraft of a family was often named the way he has mentioned.
    Su-22 is in the same family with Su-17/20/22
    Su-30/Su-35 is in the same Su-27 family.
    The Su-24, Yak, Tu cases I am not really sure. But it seems that the aircrafts in VVS with even number are often more ground-mission-oriented compare to the aircrafts that were assigned odd numbers.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pegon View Post
    The smart thing of course, is to do like India. buy a 50/50 mix of F-18 and PAKFA.
    When did India decide to buy F-18?

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    Quote Originally Posted by planeman_ View Post
    Nice pics but not sure that PAK-FA is as wide as that
    Its based on the estimated wigspan between 14,9 and 15 m. I am looking forward to see the official data.

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    Russian Raptor Killer is a "Game Changer"

    Article from the Weekly Standard

    Russian Raptor Killer is a "Game Changer"



    The end of air supremacy?
    BY Michael Goldfarb
    February 17, 2010 9:32 AM

    In an open-source assessment of Russia's Sukhoi PAK-FA, aka the Raptor Killer, Air Power Australia concludes, "once the PAK-FA is deployed within a theatre of operations, especially if it is supported robustly by counter-VLO capable ISR systems, the United States will no longer have the capability to rapidly impose air superiority, or possibly even achieve air superiority." Moreover, the Obama administration's decision to kill the F-22 air superiority fighter in favor of the multi-role F-35 Joint Strike Fighter may prove disastrous, as "the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter struggles to survive against the conventional Su-35BM Flanker… Against [a basic-model] PAK-FA, the F-35 falls within the survivability black hole, into which US legacy fighters such as the F-16C/E, F-15C/E and F/A-18A-F have already fallen.”

    When the Obama administration killed the F-22, Secretary of Defense Robert Gates made the administration's case in a speech before the Economic Club of Chicago. Gates explained that F-22 was unnecessary because nobody else was anywhere close to fielding an aircraft comprable to F-35, let alone F-22:

    Consider that by 2020, the United States is projected to have nearly 2,500 manned combat aircraft of all kinds. Of those, nearly 1,100 will be the most advanced fifth generation F-35s and F-22s. China, by contrast, is projected to have no fifth generation aircraft by 2020. And by 2025, the gap only widens. The U.S. will have approximately 1,700 of the most advanced fifth generation fighters versus a handful of comparable aircraft for the Chinese. Nonetheless, some portray this scenario as a dire threat to America's national security.

    If the Russian's had flown the PAK-FA nine months ago, you have to think Congress would have rolled the White House to keep the F-22 line open, which it almost did anyway. As it is, the line will close at the end of this year, and all our eggs, and all the eggs of our allies, will be in the F-35 basket, at the mercy of a program that's way overbudget and has no chance of being completed on time. By the time F-35 does go into service in any significant numbers (if that ever happens, and it didn't in the case of F-22), it may be obsolete -- if the Russians can actually produce the Raptor Killer in any considerable numbers.

    Can the Russians produce the PAK-FA in considerable numbers? The Russian defense industrial base is in sorry shape (think the Shkval torpedo that likely sunk the Kursk and the Beluva submarine-launched ballistic missile that has offered Moscow one spectacular embarrassment after another). But if the Russians can get the PAK-FA off the ground despite all that, maybe it's not as hard to build a fifth-generation fighter as the Pentagon thinks.

    Still, why should we assume the Chinese won't likewise be able to fly a fifth-generation fighter sooner than our projections anticipate? The Chinese are already working on their own fifth-generation fighter, and Russian arms sales to China are dwindling. Would Beijing pay for this kind of technology? Would Moscow sell it? I wouldn't want to bet America's air superiority on the assumption that they won't.

    The Obama administration and its liberal base wanted to kill the F-22 because, they argued, it was unnecessary. Even if Air Power Australia is wildly overestimating the PAK-FA's capabilities and wildly underestimating the combat potential of the F-35, the Russians are flying a fifth generation fighter! How long can it be until the Chinese builds a "handful" of them?

    The balance of power between the White House and Congress has shifted drastically in Congress's favor over the last nine months. Maybe somebody in Congress can prevent the closing of the F-22 production line at the end of this year.

    Source: http://www.weeklystandard.com/blogs/...r-game-changer
    Lockheed Martin Boeing F-22 Raptor: World's largest distributor of Sukhoi parts!!!

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