Rafale production/order status?

[Peter G]

Opit,

The only time that I mentioned NCTR, it was quoting/repeating Peter G's comment about the RBE-2 AESA 'probably' having NCTR capabilities.

I made no comment as to the NCTR capabilities (if any) of the PESA RBE-2.

"Lieutenant-Colonel Mailhol told the author:....In the air to air arena, beyond the adoption of the active antenna (PG: AESA) and the Meteor, it is likely that we seek to further decrease the Rafale's detectability by reducing its radar cross section. At the same time we will increase its detection and identification capabilities through the development of a non-cooperative target recognition (PG: NCTR) radar mode....."

Source: Rafale Mark 3, Air International September 2009, pg 53. Henri-Pierre Grolleau

They are talking about the F3-O4T and future upgrades including a HMD when funds allow.

I was surprised by this as I thought the RBE-2 already had NCTR. I thought the MIrage 2000-5 SF1C upgrade (2004?) added NCTR along with the Mirage 2000C RDI upgrade (2004).

Maybe the French didn't achieve NCTR until 2004 on the more mature products?

[OPIT]

As to who to ask if someone wants to know the truth about Rafale capabilities, I'd suggest that it's better to ask someone who genuinely seeks to understand the reality of both strengths AND weaknesses (and Rafale has plenty of both) rather than asking a French fan boy who's more concerned with confirming their nationalistic prejudices and preconceptions and with polishing an unbalanced, over-optimistic and exaggerated picture of an aircraft and its manufacturer.

You're not entitled to the former, as has been proven many times. But you're genuinely entitled to the exact opposite of the later for the very same reasons you cited.
I understand you enjoy some heavy weight here, according to how my posts get deleted while yours remain intact despite continuous french bashing and an obvious tendency to denigrate and/or minimize the stories you don't like. Frankly, I couldn't care less because what you're saying most of the time collides with my own educated knowledge and as such has zero value. But the way you're polluting Rafale threads with your repetitive rants/irony is quite annoying. Your superior tone is not welcomed either.

[Jackonicko]

There's no superior tone on this thread, there's no French-bashing, and the only person 'ranting' on this thread isn't me, Opit.

As to polluting threads, this one was posted in an attempt to get some better information on numbers of different versions in different production batches, and to try to get to the bottom of the planned squadron stand-
up schedule.

I suspect that your post was removed because it was an unprovoked and personal attack. Pollution, in other words.

[Snow Monkey]

I had my last post to this thread disappear, and since it's tone was along the lines of "can't we all get along" and not referencing any specific poster, I don't think it was deleted by mods - So I'd put it down to a technical error. Which happen.

Anyhow, I don't see Jacko claiming to be the "go-to man" or any sort of authority here - HE'S ASKING QUESTIONS, i.e. appealing to those who have more info than him. So let's chill out on the hot air, y'all...

[Jackonicko]

Thanks, Snow Monkey.

and the outstanding question is:

Of the latest batch of 60 aircraft, nine are Ms, but how many of the 51 AdlA aircraft will be Bs, and how many will be Cs?

[TMor]

You've got so much of trustful contacts in France (when it comes to get negative comments about the Rafale). You could phone one of them in the coming minutes, just like you did for the 8g limit...

So, why do you still rely on French fanboys with "nationalistic prejudices and preconceptions and with polishing an unbalanced, over-optimistic and exaggerated picture of an aircraft and its manufacturer."

Who's the journalist (the award winner ?) ? Is he really doing his job here ?

[Jackonicko]

No TMor, I'm asking.

Funnily enough, few frontline people have a clue about numbers, and it tends to be one of the subject areas where industry is slow to answer.

So if I wanted to know about Typhoon numbers I'd ask enthusiasts rather than RAF contacts.

And I'd try that, before asking BAE.

Rafale gets the same treatment.

Especially since at Dubai Dassault couldn't ask the question, but promised to get back to me with the answer. Like Boeing, they don't always do as they say!

If you don't know the answer yourself, why not just say so?

[Kovy]

No TMor, I'm asking.

Why don't you ask directly to the french mod then :

Stéphanie Prunier, Cabinet du ministre de la Défense, Tel : +33 (0)1 42 19 41 80 - com.cabinet@defense.gouv.fr

DGA/Com, Florence Fayolle, Tél : +33 (0)6 78 09 22 75 - florence.fayolle@dga.defense.gouv.fr

DICoD, Centre de presse, Tél : +33 (0)1 44 42 54 02 - presse@dicod.defense.gouv.fr

Those people are paid to answer to the journalists questions

[Jackonicko]

Kovy,

Many thanks for those - I only had phone numbers, and not e-addresses.

That's most helpful.

JN

[Jackonicko]

To tidy up, it was 60 Rafale F3-04T comprising 25 Cs, 25 Bs, and 10 Ms, right?

Taking the totals on order to:

13 F1s: 1 C, 2 Bs, 10 Ms
48 F2s: 7 Cs, 25 Bs, 16 Ms
59 F3s: 36 Cs, 11 Bs, 12 Ms
60 F3-04Ts: 25 Cs, 25 Bs, 10 Ms (which is 50 for the AdlA and 10 for the MN, not 51 and nine)

180 aircraft

or

48 Ms (10 F1, 16 F2, 12 F3 and 10 F3-04T)
63 Bs (2 F1, 25 F2, 11 F3 and 25 F3-04T)
69 Cs (1 F1, 7 F2, 36 F3 and 25 F3-O4T)

180 aircraft

[Jackonicko]

Except that if Rafale C137, is the first production Rafale model F30-04T, then all of the above numbers are thrown into disarray.

[Jackonicko]

The numbers in post 40 also conflict with Jane's, who would have us believe that the situation is:

12 F1s: 2 Bs, 10 Ms
49 F2s: 12 Cs, 22 Bs, 15 Ms
59 F3s: 36 Cs, 11 Bs, 12 Ms
60 F3-04Ts: 51 AdlA Cs and Bs, 9 Ms

180 aircraft

or

46 Ms (10 F1, 15 F2, 12 F3 and 9 F3-04T)
35+?? Bs (2 F1, 22 F2, 11 F3 and ?? F3-04T)
48+?? Cs (12 F2, 36 F3 and ?? F3-O4T)

180 aircraft

I think that Jane's are wrong, mind you, but still.....

[Scorpion82]

Except that if Rafale C137, is the first production Rafale model F30-04T, then all of the above numbers are thrown into disarray.

Except if the radar is simply retrofitted...

[Jackonicko]

Yes, indeed. If C137 is an F3, which happens to have the radar (eg a testbed) rather than the first F3-04T, then my numbers work......

[Kovy]

F3-O4T not F3-04T

O as in Original or Orange

[Jackonicko]

Thanks for the reminder.

What does O4T stand for?

[AlphaZulu]

Obsolescence 4ème Tranche.

Where do the 2 "B" F1 came from? Are they pre-production?
AFAIK, only the "M" was ops under the F1 standart.

[Austere]

To tidy up, it was 60 Rafale F3-04T comprising 25 Cs, 25 Bs, and 10 Ms, right?

Taking the totals on order to:

13 F1s: 1 C, 2 Bs, 10 Ms
48 F2s: 7 Cs, 25 Bs, 16 Ms
59 F3s: 36 Cs, 11 Bs, 12 Ms
60 F3-04Ts: 25 Cs, 25 Bs, 10 Ms (which is 50 for the AdlA and 10 for the MN, not 51 and nine)

180 aircraft

or

48 Ms (10 F1, 16 F2, 12 F3 and 10 F3-04T)
63 Bs (2 F1, 25 F2, 11 F3 and 25 F3-04T)
69 Cs (1 F1, 7 F2, 36 F3 and 25 F3-O4T)

180 aircraft

Source...?

[Scorpion82]

Obsolescence 4ème Tranche.

Where do the 2 "B" F1 came from? Are they pre-production?
AFAIK, only the "M" was ops under the F1 standart.

Rafale B301&302 were F1 standard aircraft at the beginning, but have been upgraded to higher standards to support the ongoing development activities and should be F3 something. Jackonicko certainly listed these aircraft in the way they were delivered.

[PhilipG]

A very interesting set of information about what was initially delivered.
Personally I would find it interesting to know what has happened to them all, a number have been lost, the MN F1 Ms are as I understand it being upgraded to I think the latest spec, are the early delivery to AdA planes also being upgraded?

[Jackonicko]

Phillip,

I make no apology for posting this, which is stolen from TMor's excellent website with minor changes

Technology demonstrator
A: Châteaudun (static diplay)

Prototypes:
C01: Châteaudun (grounded)
M01: Dassault Aviation Istres (grounded)
B01: Dassault Aviation Istres (grounded)
M02: Dassault Aviation Istres (used for F3 development)

Rafale F1:
Order dates: 26/3/1993 (B301 and M1), 17/02/1994 (B302, M2, M3), 13/09/1995 (C101 and remaining Ms)

B301: Dassault Aviation Istres CEV (used for F3 development)
B302: Dassault Aviation Istres CEV (used for F3 development)
C101: Dassault Aviation CEV Istres (used for F3 development)
M1: Dassault Aviation Istres CEV (used for F1 development)
M2: ex-Flottille 12F Landivisiau (awaiting F3 conversion)
M3: ex-Flottille 12F Landivisiau (awaiting F3 conversion)
M4: ex-Flottille 12F Landivisiau (awaiting F3 conversion)
M5: ex-Flottille 12F Landivisiau (awaiting F3 conversion)
M6: ex-Flottille 12F Landivisiau (awaiting F3 conversion)
M7: ex-Flottille 12F Landivisiau (awaiting F3 conversion)
M8: ex-Flottille 12F Landivisiau (awaiting F3 conversion)
M9: ex-Flottille 12F Landivisiau (undergoing F3 conversion)
M10: ex-Flottille 12F Landivisiau (undergoing F3 conversion)

There is something on the web that says which F1s will be upgraded in which order.....

It's unclear to me as to which F1s began life as LF1s. Surprisingly, none of the French fanboys seem to know, and the official answers I have had have been:
1) 6 or 7 (I then asked which, 6 or 7, and does that include M01 and M02 to which the official answer was the written equivalent of a Gallic shrug)
2) All of them.
3) Up to M8 (I then asked whether that included M8, and got no reply)

[Jackonicko]

Apart from B301 and B302 and C101 (which weren't delivered to the AdlA) all early air force examples were F2s, and all but one should by now have been upgraded to F3 (as opposed to the new-build F3-O) standard.

Seven single-seaters: C102-C108
Twenty-five two-seaters: B303-B327

B316 was lost in a fatal accident in 2007. I don't have the date to hand, but I think before it could be upgraded to F3 standard.

[Scorpion82]

I think it were M1-7 which were delivered as LF1, with the rest being delivered as F1s. The F1 standard was introduced in summer 2001, so every aircraft delivered from 2001 must be F1s. IIRC there were 7 ac involved in the Trident d'or exercise in May/June 2001. All LF1s were upgraded to F1 from late 2001 onwards. Changes included a Spectra update, installation of the gun and clearance of MICA EM. 2002 saw the first three ac being modified to carry the buddy-buddy refueling pod. M88-2E1s were reportedly being upgraded to E4 standard.

B316 crashed on 6th December 2007.

[Jackonicko]

Jane's says:

"Navy received 10 aircraft in F1 configuration (actually LF1, which upgraded to partial F1 in early 2002, incorporating some air-to-air capability, although full F1, with cannon and MICA AAM, not due until late 2002)."

Now where is the Rafale fan with the in-depth knowledge of the programme that you and I have of the Typhoon programme?

[Kovy]

Jane's says:
Now where is the Rafale fan with the in-depth knowledge of the programme that you and I have of the Typhoon programme?

lol

There is a few things you should learn from Scorpion.
He does not need to boast himself about his knowledge on the Typhoon. Nor does he need to repeat twice a day how fair and balance he is concerning the Rafale.

[Jackonicko]

Kovy,

I've told you a million times not to exaggerate.

I only say it once a week, and I say it because that truth (that I am balanced and fair about Rafale) winds folks like you up so magnificently.

I'm not boasting, I'm just surprised that of all of the passionate fans of Rafale, there seem to be none who actually have got their heads around this kind of detail.

Don't get defensive just because you don't have the facts and figures about the programme......

Scorpion,

The F1 standard was introduced in summer 2001, so every aircraft delivered from 2001 must be F1s.

Do you have delivery dates for the F1s, then?

[Scorpion82]

Scorpion,

Do you have delivery dates for the F1s, then?

Unfortunately not. The only dates I'm aware off are the handover of M2 & 3 on 4th December 2000 amd that of M10 in October 2002. The rest are just general milestones, such as the first cruise of the CdG with 7 ac aboard from 21st May onwards and that two F1 were aboard the CdG when it embarked to the Indian ocean in November 2001. 5 aircraft upgraded to the F1 standard were directly ferried to the CdG from France requiring four aerial refuelings in May 2002 IIRC.

[Kovy]

Don't get defensive just because you don't have the facts and figures about the programme......

So nice...
I certainly won't bother spending time to dig in my 10 years old rafale archives just to please your whims, mister lazy.

The last time you gathered data about the Rafale it was about the aircraft cost, with the only purpose to distort the truth.

So, why should we help you this time ?

[Kovy]

Unfortunately not. The only dates I'm aware off are the handover of M2 & 3 on 4th December 2000 amd that of M10 in October 2002. The rest are just general milestones, such as the first cruise of the CdG with 7 ac aboard from 21st May onwards and that two F1 were aboard the CdG when it embarked to the Indian ocean in November 2001. 5 aircraft upgraded to the F1 standard were directly ferried to the CdG from France requiring four aerial refuelings in May 2002 IIRC.

http://www.ffaa.net/aircraft/rafale/fleet.htm

[Scorpion82]

Thanks for the link Kovy. But the delivery dates look a bit odd to me, especially the first dates. I may have to re-check may own notes as wrt the number of ac in Trident d'Or.