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Thread: Rafale production/order status?

  1. #1
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    Rafale production/order status?

    I've lost track of Rafale numbers. Can someone help me out?

    I know that the total French requirement for the Rafale was originally 294 aircraft, 60 for the Marine Nationale, and 234 for the Armée de l’Air.

    I know that the air force was expected to receive 122 two-seat Rafale Bs and 112 Rafale C single-seaters, the proportion of single-seaters having been increased (from what number?) to save money.

    Of these 294 aircraft, I know that orders have been placed for 180 aircraft.

    F1 consisted of 13 aircraft - one Rafale C (C101), two Bs (B301 and 302) and ten Ms (M1-M10).

    How many of them were delivered as LF1s? How many of the Ms are stored now? What is the plan for them?

    F2 consisted of 48 aircraft - seven Rafale C (C102-108), 25 Bs (B303-327) and 16 Ms (M11-M26).

    The first order for F3s consisted of 59 aircraft

    Was this eleven Bs (B328-338), 36 Cs (C109-144) and 12 Ms (M27-M38)?

    But what of the famous eight aircraft for which funding was removed/deferred? What effect did this have on the numbers above? Will it now be a total of 286 aircraft (228 AdlA and 58 MN)? How many in F3:1? Only 51? What's the new breakdown by variant if that's the case?

    The second, 2009 order for F3s consists of 60 aircraft. Nine of these are Ms (M39-47) and 51 are for the air force, but what is the breakdown going to be between Bs and Cs?

    What were the serials of the lost aircraft? The air force loss and the two recent Navy losses?
    Last edited by Jackonicko; 5th October 2009 at 13:32.

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    So far just 120 aircraft were ordered as part of 3 batches:
    Lot: Ordered: Delivered: Standard Numbers
    1 May 1997 2000-2003 F1 13 (10xM, 2xB, 1xC)
    2 09.06.1999 (28)
    21.12.2001 (20) 2004-2007 F2 48 (15xM, 21xB, 12xC)
    3 06.12.2004 2009-2012 F3 59 (11xB, 36xC, 12xM)

    8 aircraft had been canceled, but it is said that they will be reordered.

    The split between B & C was originally 139 B & 95 C at the time the AdA reduced its number from 250 to 234 in 1991.
    BTW the exact split is still not definitive now and the numbers you provided are just one suggestion.

    Aircraft lost during the collision were the M22 and M25.

    M2-M10 are still stored.

    That's the most current list from the Rafale forum, posted by TMor:

    Ordered as Rafale F1 :
    Order date : 3/26/1993 :
    B301 : Dassault Aviation Istres CEV (development of standard F3)
    M1 : Dassault Aviation Istres CEV (development of standard F1) (first flight on July the 7th of 1999)

    Order date : 02/17/1994 :
    B302 : Dassault Aviation Istres CEV (développement standard F3)
    M2 : Flottille 12F Landivisiau (waiting)
    M3 : Flottille 12F Landivisiau (waiting)

    Order date : 09/13/1995 :
    C101 : Dassault Aviation CEV Istres (development of standard F3)
    M4 : Flottille 12F Landivisiau (waiting)
    M5 : Flottille 12F Landivisiau (waiting)
    M6 : Flottille 12F Landivisiau (waiting)
    M7 : Flottille 12F Landivisiau (waiting)
    M8 : Flottille 12F Landivisiau (waiting)
    M9 : Flottille 12F Landivisiau (waiting)
    M10 : Flottille 12F Landivisiau (waiting)

    Ordered in 1999, 48 Rafale F2 :
    Initially, 28 aircraft (7 Rafale M), with an option of 20 (8 Rafale M), total of 33 Rafale Air and 15 Marine.
    Later changed to 32 Air and 16 Marine : 25 Rafale B, 7 Rafale C, and 16 M. Here they are :


    7 Rafale C

    C102 : CEAM Mont-de-Marsan (330-EF)
    C103 : EC 01.007 "Provence" Saint-Dizier (113-HR)
    C104 : EC 01.007 "Provence" Saint-Dizier (113-HH)
    C105 : EC 01.007 "Provence" Saint-Dizier (113-HE)
    C106 : EC 01.007 "Provence" Saint-Dizier (113-HG)
    C107 : EC 01.007 "Provence" Saint-Dizier (113-HJ)
    C108 : EC 01.007 "Provence" Saint-Dizier (113-HS)


    25 Rafale B

    B303 : ECE 05.300 "Côte d'Argent" CEAM Mont-de-Marsan (330-EA)
    B304 : ECE 05.300 "Côte d'Argent" CEAM Mont-de-Marsan (330-EB)
    B305 : ECE 05.300 "Côte d'Argent" CEAM Mont-de-Marsan (330-EC)
    B306 : EC 01.007 "Provence" Saint-Dizier (113-IB)

    B307 : EC 01.007 "Provence" Saint-Dizier (113-IA)
    B308 : EC 01.007 "Provence" Saint-Dizier (113-HA)
    B309 : EC 01.007 "Provence" Saint-Dizier (113-HB)
    B310 : EC 01.007 "Provence" Saint-Dizier (113-HC)
    B311 : EC 01.007 "Provence" Saint-Dizier (113-HD)
    B312 : EC 01.007 "Provence" Saint-Dizier (113-HF)
    B313 : EC 01.007 "Provence" Saint-Dizier (113-HI)
    B314 : EC 01.007 "Provence" Saint-Dizier (113-HP)
    B315 : EC 01.007 "Provence" Saint-Dizier (113-HK)
    :cry: B316 : EC 01.007 "Provence" Saint-Dizier (113-HL) lost on 12/6/2007 (pilot killed)
    B317 : EC 01.007 "Provence" Saint-Dizier (113-HO)
    B318 : EC 01.007 "Provence" Saint-Dizier (113-HM)
    B319 : EC 01.007 "Provence" Saint-Dizier (113-HN)
    B320 : EC 01.007 "Provence" Saint-Dizier (113-HV)
    B321 : EC 01.007 "Provence" Saint-Dizier (113-HQ)
    B322 : EC 01.007 "Provence" Saint-Dizier (113-HU)
    B323 : EC 01.007 "Provence" Saint-Dizier (113-HT)
    B324 : EC 01.007 "Provence" Saint-Dizier (113-HW)
    B325 : EC 01.007 "Provence" Saint-Dizier (113-HX)
    B326 : EC 01.007 "Provence" Saint-Dizier (113-HY)
    B327 : EC 01.007 "Provence" Saint-Dizier (113-HZ)


    16 Rafale M

    M11 : Flottille 12F Landivisiau
    M12 : Flottille 12F Landivisiau
    M13 : Flottille 12F Landivisiau
    M14 : Flottille 12F Landivisiau
    M15 : Flottille 12F Landivisiau
    M16 : Flottille 12F Landivisiau
    M17 : Flottille 12F Landivisiau
    M18 : Flottille 12F Landivisiau
    M19 : Flottille 12F Landivisiau
    M20 : Flottille 12F Landivisiau
    M21 : Flottille 12F Landivisiau
    M22 : Flottille 12F Landivisiau lost on 9/24/2009 (air collision, with loss of one of the pilots)
    M23 : Flottille 12F Landivisiau
    M24 : Flottille 12F Landivisiau
    M25 : Flottille 12F Landivisiau lost on 9/24/2009 (air collision, with loss of one of the pilots)
    M26 : Flottille 12F Landivisiau

    Nearly all those Rafale F2 are now retrofitted to F3 standard.

    ===================

    Ordered in 2004, 59 Rafale F3 (36 C, 11 B, 12 M) + 2 Rafale for the relaunch plan (2009) :

    Rafale C :

    C109 : EC 01.007 "Provence" Saint-Dizier (113-IM)
    C110 : EC 01.007 "Provence" Saint-Dizier (113-IN)
    C111 : EC 01.007 "Provence" Saint-Dizier (113-IP)
    C112 : EC 01.007 "Provence" Saint-Dizier (113-IQ)
    C113 : Dassault Aviation Mérignac
    C114 : Dassault Aviation Mérignac
    C116 : Dassault Aviation Mérignac

    Rafale B :

    B328 : EC 01.007 "Provence" Saint-Dizier (113-IC)
    B329 : EC 01.007 "Provence" Saint-Dizier (113-ID)
    B330 : EC 01.007 "Provence" Saint-Dizier (113-IE)
    B331 : CEAM Mont-de-Marsan (?-IF)
    B332 : CEAM Mont-de-Marsan (?-IG)
    B333 : EC 01.007 "Provence" Saint-Dizier (113-IH)
    B334 : EC 01.007 "Provence" Saint-Dizier (113-II)
    B335 : EC 01.007 "Provence" Saint-Dizier (113-IJ)
    B336 : EC 01.007 "Provence" Saint-Dizier (113-IK)
    B337 : EC 01.007 "Provence" Saint-Dizier (113-IL)

    Rafale M :

    M27 : CEAM Mont-de-Marsan (CEPA)
    M28 : Dassault Aviation Mérignac
    Hope that helps

    cheers
    Last edited by Scorpion82; 5th October 2009 at 16:18.

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scorpion82 View Post
    Aircraft lost during the collision were the M22 and M23.
    It's M25, not M23.
    "Les deux avions perdus sont les M22 et M25, deux appareils livrés au standard F2 et récemment mis au standard F3"
    Source : http://www.meretmarine.com/article.cfm?id=111275
    Last edited by OPIT; 5th October 2009 at 16:34.

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    Quote Originally Posted by OPIT View Post
    It's M25, not M23.
    Then the info posted elsewhere was wrong. Thanks.

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    We are still waiting for the formal approval of the next batch. The vote for the new defense budget was postponed and posponed due to the glut of new laws to vote for other reforms. This should come at the end of this year hopefully.

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    What is the plan as to what will happen to M2-M10?

    Why are they grounded and stored? Are they really of no use at all, even for training?

    Have their OSFs been cannibalised to allow a fleet-wide fit of OSF 1 across all F2 aircraft? If not, which aircraft do use the 48 Mk 1 OSFs that were delivered?

    When does the next squadron stand up?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jackonicko View Post
    What is the plan as to what will happen to M2-M10?
    They will be upgraded to F3. When ? no body know.

    Why are they grounded and stored? Are they really of no use at all, even for training?
    They are waiting their F3 upgrade. some of the F1 are already 10 years old. Keeping them in storage allows the navy to have a uniform fleet of F2 (F2 are quite different from the F1). So same training for both the pilots and mecanics. It is also a mean to average the age of the fleet by not eating too much lifetime of the F1 airframe potential

    Have their OSFs been cannibalised to allow a fleet-wide fit of OSF 1 across all F2 aircraft? If not, which aircraft do use the 48 Mk 1 OSFs that were delivered?
    What do you mean ? The F1 never get any OSF. The 48 OSF were delivered for the 48 F2 (which are now F3 by the way). No new OSF have been ordered for the new F3 delivered since 2008. However an OSF can be affected to any rafale, ex-F2 or newbuild F3.

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    I thought the OSF were ordered for the F1s and F2s, I knew that it was limited to 48 sets.

    Is the F2-to-F3 upgrade process complete? Surely not?

    Who gets priority for the OSF? The Navy? EC 1/91?

    And what is an F3, in reality, as of now?

    It was supposed to have:
    1) implementation of all currently planned modes for the RBE2 radar - NO
    2) AASM capability - YES
    3) nuclear strike, with the ASMP or ASMP-A; NOT YET
    4) antiship attack with the Exocet or ANF; NOT YET
    5) reconnaissance with the Reco NG pod; ???
    6) DVI; LIMITED VOCAB COMPARED TO WHAT WAS PLANNED
    7) the helmet-mounted sight - NO
    8) Support for an improved tanker pack - ????

  9. #9
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    Is the F2-to-F3 upgrade process complete? Surely not?
    There are already a majority of F3 and all the F2 should be retrofited to the F3 standard in February 2010.

    And what is an F3, in reality, as of now?
    The Exocet, the ASMP are technically cleared for the F3 already. I am not sure about the reco NG but the swiss test showed that this was already fonctionning so it should be the case now. But the AdA needs to find the right doctrine of use and train its pilots before declaring the weapon operational. Besides they need to get delivery of these new weapons. By the way the recent mid air collision was about the ASMP-A testing with the navy. That is why the navy refused to communicate on the weight of the aircrafts for catapult according to secret defense blog.

    The F3 standard encompass many less visible improvments such as obsolescences treatments for some hardware, new RBE2 modes, improved SPECTRA which is continuously upgraded at each batch, new firing modes with the mica IR (loal) etc

    The DVI and HMS are still absent but were previously tested. Budget reasons decided against it.

    The F3 upgrade is not just a software upgrade : that is a 2 week work per rafale with a lot of rewiring and some hardware replacement.

    The F3 allows the rafale to confront a very wide tactical scenarios which makes it 'omnirole' as marketed by Dassault and gives a true justification to its price. The coming F3+ will improve again these capabilities.

    PS : 100 METEOR are expected to be ordered with the 2010 defense budget !!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jackonicko View Post
    I thought the OSF were ordered for the F1s and F2s, I knew that it was limited to 48 sets.

    Is the F2-to-F3 upgrade process complete? Surely not?

    Who gets priority for the OSF? The Navy? EC 1/91?

    And what is an F3, in reality, as of now?

    It was supposed to have:
    1) implementation of all currently planned modes for the RBE2 radar - NO
    2) AASM capability - YES
    3) nuclear strike, with the ASMP or ASMP-A; NOT YET
    4) antiship attack with the Exocet or ANF; NOT YET
    5) reconnaissance with the Reco NG pod; ???
    6) DVI; LIMITED VOCAB COMPARED TO WHAT WAS PLANNED
    7) the helmet-mounted sight - NO
    8) Support for an improved tanker pack - ????

    GESHTAPO?

  11. #11
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    Globalpress,

    What on earth are you on?



    Anyone else (preferably someone sensible),

    Who's using the OSF sets? Navy? Air Force? No-one?

    Do we know what the planned breakdown (B/C/M) will be with the next 60 aircraft order?

    Didn't that have to be placed by March to avoid a production gap, or has someone (Dassault? The Government?) funded the required 'long lead' items.

    At even the current reduced production rate, the last of the currently funded batch will be DELIVERED by the middle of 2014, and will start final production at the end of 2012.


    Scorpion 82,

    I like TMor's list, but I'd like it more if some of the aircraft were described as belonging to EC 1/91 - instead of 39 appearing to be assigned to EC 1/7......

    Can anyone 'fill the gaps'?

    Squadron....................Base..........operatio nal
    1/7 'Provence'...............St Dizier......FOC ??? 2007 (1)
    1/91 'Gascogne'.............St Dizier......mid-2010 (2)
    ?? 'Normandie-Niemen'... ?...............?
    ?? 'Alsace'
    ?? 'Lorraine'
    ?? 'Lafayette'
    ?? 'Cigognes'
    ?? Ile de France

    1 (SPA 15 Casque de Bayard, SPA 77 Croix de Jérusalem, SPA 91 Aigle à tête de mort)
    2 (SAL 28 éléphant, SPA 79 tête de loup, BR 66 faucon égyptien)
    Last edited by Jackonicko; 6th October 2009 at 10:11.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by arthuro View Post
    The F3 upgrade is not just a software upgrade : that is a 2 week work per rafale with a lot of rewiring and some hardware replacement.
    I mean to remember it were 6 weeks, not just 2?


    @GlobalPress
    GESHTAPO?
    It's actually called Gestapo for a starter.

  13. #13
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    Cannot help with the questions asked, but

    EC 1/7 is supposed to have 15 C, 5 B with EC 1/19 having 20 B.

    Normand-Nieman is supposed to stand up 2010.

    IIRH AASM from late 2009.

    GBU-24 and Reco recon pods early 2010.

    ASMP-A and Damocles mid 2010.

    From 2012 the F3-OT should enter service with AESA (engages 8 tgts, probbaly NCTR mode), DDM NG MAWS (provision for DIRCM).

    They would like HMD, buts it is unfunded currently.

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    I mean to remember it were 6 weeks, not just 2?
    You are right about that I think, my memory has mistaken me
    Last edited by arthuro; 6th October 2009 at 11:24.

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    Who's using the OSF sets? Navy? Air Force? No-one?
    Navy and Air Force. As the OSF can be removed easily, they give the OSF in priority for the aircrafts on operations (Astan or international exercises)

    BUT there is currently a debate to make the OSF the norm on each aircraft because the availibility of this item or not changes completly the approach of the mission. So the pilots complains that without it, it is very difficult to train in a realistic manner. (because in operation they would have the OSF). That is why we can hear in the french specialized press that a new batch of OSF-IT could be ordered for the current F3 batch which have been ordered without for budgetary reasons and also to the fact that an improved version would soon be available.

    The decision to affect the OSF to the aircrafts on 'the front line' should be an interim solution, provided there are no budget cuts.

    >>I think that the production continuity issue was already adressed by re-ordering the cancelled F3 rafale to fund the F3+ variant. Besides 2 more rafale should be ordered as part as france investment plan to fight against the crisis. Perhaps another french poster should give some update about this.

    >>Rafale production should stop in 2023 for french needs if everything goes normally.

    regards.
    Last edited by arthuro; 6th October 2009 at 11:25.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jackonicko View Post
    I like TMor's list, but I'd like it more if some of the aircraft were described as belonging to EC 1/91 - instead of 39 appearing to be assigned to EC 1/7......
    The truth is that these aircrafts are managed by ESTA 15-007. The whole thing works like a single pool in which the aircrafts are used at will, depending on availability on a daily basis, by both squadrons.

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    Hence the 118 codes, I guess.

    Still no answer on whether all of the F1s were delivered as LF1s.....

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    Hence the 118 codes, I guess.

    Still no answer on whether all of the F1s were delivered as LF1s.....

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jackonicko View Post
    Still no answer on whether all of the F1s were delivered as LF1s.....
    I believe it were 6 or 7 aircraft, which delivered in LF1 configuration. Deliveries of F1 standard aircraft started in the second half of 2001. During the first deployment of the CdG 6 LF1 aircraft were onboard.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Scorpion82 View Post
    I believe it were 6 or 7 aircraft, which delivered in LF1 configuration. Deliveries of F1 standard aircraft started in the second half of 2001. During the first deployment of the CdG 6 LF1 aircraft were onboard.
    AFAIK everything delivered before the 2nd quater of 2002 is LF1 or post-LF1

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kovy View Post
    AFAIK everything delivered before the 2nd quater of 2002 is LF1 or post-LF1
    I'm pretty certain that the 2 Rafale M onboard the CdG were F1 when it departed for the Indian Ocean and that 5 aircraft which were ferried to the CdG in 2002 were retrofitted examples.

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    The ASMP-A enters into service

    speed around mach3 and range around 500 km.

    Designed to be implemented by military aircraft of the Air and naval aviation, the new nuclear missile ASMP-A (Medium Range Air-Ground Improved) was declared operational on 1 October on Mirage 2000 N. A ceremony was held for the occasion on the air base 125 in Istres. Forty five years ago, 1 October 1964, was declared the operational commissioning of Mirage IV and the AN-11 EB 1 / 91 "Biscay, Mont de Marsan. "La France became the third independent nuclear power, giving it the rank it has more left in the comity of nations. 45 years of uninterrupted nuclear alert, 7 / 7 and 24/24 ", said General Jean-Paul Palomeros, Chief of Staff of the Air Force.
    Nuclear deterrence, initially assigned only to the Strategic Air Forces (SAF), will also be the case of the Navy. In December 1971, the formidable first submarine ballistic missile French, is in use. It will be followed by five SSBNs between 1973 and 1985. Then come over in 1997 with a new-generation SSBN, The Triumphant (arming M45 with 16 missiles each up to 6 heads of 150 kilotonnes.Portée: 6000 kilometers). After the fall of the Berlin Wall, the staff of the Strategic Oceanic Force (FOST) is reduced to four units. The last of the series, The Terrible, becomes operational next year and will be the first to embark on new M51 ballistic missile (range 9,000 kilometers), which will equip his elders, after revision, during the next decade.


    The naval aviation has also been entrusted with the mission of nuclear deterrence. Its Super Etendard, aboard aircraft carriers are equipped with the AN-12 and the ASMP (a head of 300 kt), like the Mirage of FAS also upgraded. If the means of the FOST is not reduced in March 2008, President Sarkozy has announced a reduction of one third of the airborne component. The FAS lose, well, one of their three squadrons. But if they lose quantitatively, qualitatively they will earn with the replacement of the ASPM by a new missile.

    "The ASMP-A is a formidable weapon that has no equivalent. Today few nations are equal to us, not afraid to say, be proud, "said the October 1 general Palomeros. Laurent Collet-Billon, Delegate General for Armaments, was recognized for his "extraordinary performances of this new missile."

    Developed by MBDA, the ASMP-A, with a new head (NIR) measures just over 5 meters and a mass of about 850 pounds. With an increased range compared to its predecessor, is powered by stratoreacteur, which gives it greater speed. Its penetration capability and accuracy are also higher. Deterrence requires, its exact characteristics are classified. The literature suggests authorized, however, a speed of Mach 3 and a range of 500 kilometers.

    In addition to the Mirage 2000 N of FAS, the ASMP-A will equip the Gust of the Air Force and those of the Navy (standard F3). It should be implemented soon since the aircraft carrier Charles de Gaulle, whose tanks were modified last year to accommodate the new missile.
    Between submarines and planes, France have, in total, almost 300 nuclear warheads
    http://www.meretmarine.com/article.cfm?id=111326

    It should be interesting to know if it is possible to develop a conventional supersonic cruise weapon out of it or even a long range AtA missile.

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by arthuro View Post
    The ASMP-A enters into service

    speed around mach3 and range around 500 km.

    Developed by MBDA, the ASMP-A, with a new head (NIR) measures just over 5 meters and a mass of about 850 pounds.


    http://www.meretmarine.com/article.cfm?id=111326

    It should be interesting to know if it is possible to develop a conventional supersonic cruise weapon out of it or even a long range AtA missile.
    Is that 850lb mass a little off? I thought it should be 850kg?

    USS.

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    The original -
    Développé par MBDA, l'ASMP-A, doté d'une nouvelle tête (TNA) mesure un peu plus de 5 mètres pour une masse d'environ 850 kilos.
    I think the translation software needs fixing.
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    Arthuro,

    Nice to know, but better in the Rafale news thread, perhaps?

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    The second, 2009 order for F3s consists of 60 aircraft. Nine of these are Ms (M39-47) and 51 are for the air force, but what is the breakdown going to be between Bs and Cs?

    Are these the Rafale F3-O4T aircraft, or F3-OT?

    Due to enter service with AESA (probbaly with NCTR mode), and DDM NG MAWS (provision for DIRCM).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jackonicko View Post
    The second, 2009 order for F3s consists of 60 aircraft. Nine of these are Ms (M39-47) and 51 are for the air force, but what is the breakdown going to be between Bs and Cs?

    Are these the Rafale F3-O4T aircraft, or F3-OT?

    Due to enter service with AESA (probbaly with NCTR mode), and DDM NG MAWS (provision for DIRCM).
    These are the F3-O4T. I thought NCTR would be already available for current Rafales?

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    Well Thales RBE2 brochure (for the original PESA) included a hint about the NCTR capabilities.

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    Opit,

    The only time that I mentioned NCTR, it was quoting/repeating Peter G's comment about the RBE-2 AESA 'probably' having NCTR capabilities.

    I made no comment as to the NCTR capabilities (if any) of the PESA RBE-2.

    As to who to ask if someone wants to know the truth about Rafale capabilities, I'd suggest that it's better to ask someone who genuinely seeks to understand the reality of both strengths AND weaknesses (and Rafale has plenty of both) rather than asking a French fan boy who's more concerned with confirming their nationalistic prejudices and preconceptions and with polishing an unbalanced, over-optimistic and exaggerated picture of an aircraft and its manufacturer.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jackonicko View Post
    Opit,
    As to who to ask if someone wants to know the truth about Rafale capabilities, I'd suggest that it's better to ask someone who genuinely seeks to understand the reality of both strengths AND weaknesses (and Rafale has plenty of both) rather than asking a French fan boy who's more concerned with confirming their nationalistic prejudices and preconceptions and with polishing an unbalanced, over-optimistic and exaggerated picture of an aircraft and its manufacturer.
    you seem pretty pissed off for someone saying he is neutral and without prejudices.

    Life is hard, looks like no one is perfect down here. Well, I guess it's better to laugh of it, and to make his own opinion without following blinding any guy around... lol

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