CVF Construction

[Liger30]

Unless when the Charles De Gaulle is out in refit or plain broken.

Luckily (?) it happens with amazing frequency.

The US might be less willing to deploy planes on the QE in peacetime, even when a Carrier Wing from one of the Nimitz in port is theorically available. They will do it every now and then most likely, but with the cost of deploying planes on ships, you can't expect them to always fill up the QE deck.

And anyway, it is an idea that does not shine. I want the UK carrier crowded with UK jets the Uk can use as the Uk pleases.
Cross-decking is good and awesome, but when the need arises no one will come crowding your deck unless they have real and immediate interests in doing so. It would be plain irresponsible to plan on it.

[Scooter]

Unless when the Charles De Gaulle is out in refit or plain broken.

Luckily (?) it happens with amazing frequency.

The US might be less willing to deploy planes on the QE in peacetime, even when a Carrier Wing from one of the Nimitz in port is theorically available. They will do it every now and then most likely, but with the cost of deploying planes on ships, you can't expect them to always fill up the QE deck.

And anyway, it is an idea that does not shine. I want the UK carrier crowded with UK jets the Uk can use as the Uk pleases.
Cross-decking is good and awesome, but when the need arises no one will come crowding your deck unless they have real and immediate interests in doing so. It would be plain irresponsible to plan on it.

Well, didn't I read that the Queen Elizabeth would only deploy with one squadron of 12 F-35C during peacetime?


Regardless, my point was US or French Naval Aircraft could fill the decks in the short-term. Really, a lot of possibilities when you think about it. For example the Charles de Gaulle will go down for a refit at some point and likely for a considerable amount of time. Plus, the Queen Elizabeth could deploy to the US East Coast and help work up USN Squadrons. Before they have to deploy on a Cruise. Also, remember only about half of USN Squadrons are deployed on American Carriers at any given time.


Personally, I would love to see the Queen Elizabeth. Deploy with a deck full of Royal Navy F-35C's. Yet, at least in the short term that is not going to happen.


FLY NAVY

[Fedaykin]

Interesting report as it shows senior RAF and RN officers are now considering the process towards carrier operations. Certainly it is clear that it will be all jointery whether the RN likes it or not, on the other hand I do see it as an admission from the RAF brass that if they want a replacement for the GR4 then they are more likely to get it if they work with the RN.

The article actually raises the more pressing issue of deck skills and the fact that the RN has no flightdeck personel who have recent experience of CATOBAR operations.

http://www.defensenews.com/story.php?i=5259976

[Bager1968]

All they have to do is, around 2016 or so, extend the current pilot exchange/training program with the USN to include flight deck personnel (especially trainees for the "throw & catch" jobs).

Get one full set of personnel fully up to speed by 2018, and then they will form the core of that part of the commissioning crew, and can train the rest of those needed.

No problem whatsoever!

[swerve]

Agreed. The extended commissioning schedule makes sense not only because of the extra time needed to incorporate cat & trap into the ships, but also training up crews. No doubt that accounts for the long time between launch & IOC.

[benroethig]

Also, remember only about half of USN Squadrons are deployed on American Carriers at any given time.

That's because there's a cycle. They need time for training of new personnel and tactical, maintenance (six months of cat launches and traps an be very taxing on an airframe), and since these are human beings and not robots, god forbid they actually get to see their families. And that's just the air wing side to say nothing of the carrier and the other ships in the battle group.

[benroethig]

Interesting report as it shows senior RAF and RN officers are now considering the process towards carrier operations. Certainly it is clear that it will be all jointery whether the RN likes it or not, on the other hand I do see it as an admission from the RAF brass that if they want a replacement for the GR4 then they are more likely to get it if they work with the RN.

The article actually raises the more pressing issue of deck skills and the fact that the RN has no flightdeck personel who have recent experience of CATOBAR operations.

http://www.defensenews.com/story.php?i=5259976

With the retirement of the CVSs, they won't have anyone with any kind of deck skills whatsoever.

[Obi Wan Russell]

With the retirement of the CVSs, they won't have anyone with any kind of deck skills whatsoever.

Ah, but Illustrious and her deck crew aren't going until 2014, and Ocean and her deck crew will stay until 2018, when they can transfer directly to QE as she begins her trials. The SFDO isn't going anywhere either.

[Liger30]

HMS Ocean is not expected to bow out any earlier than 2022, actually. Her crew will aid the entrance in service of the CVFs most surely, but unless the RN is to remain for a few years without carriers and without LPHs both, HMS Ocean will stay busy enough on her own in those years.

The navy was also reported to be asking for 20 Harriers or so to be kept useable (probably using the others as source for spares, since selling them is a dream, not a realistic possibility...) and be flied by reservists picked up from the current crews. It was reported on the Telegraph as well... I don't think they have any chance of success, but since i did not heard anything afterwards save for "we are still planning on what to do with the Harriers, i don't know. Maybe a little something can be worked out on that front too...

[Geoff_B]

The interesting one is what they do with the school of aircraft handling down at RNAS Culdrose, as that will continue with Helicopter handling and at some point they will start practicing with fixed wing aircraft of carrier configuration.

Wait and see when they mark up mock CVF deck lifts, carapults and arrestor wires so flight deck crew become familiar and therfore caution when working in their environments.

The other one to watch for will be ground test rigs for the EMALs system and arrestor system. Will they do working simulators to train the crew in their use or will they go the whole hog and create an operational land based system for testing and training ?

[Liger30]

The F35C virtual flight simulator will probably include the EMALs launch catapult training part. However, i expect most, if not all, of the catapult training for the crews to be done sending pilots in the US Navy schools in the US. It is the cheapest way to do it.

Of course, this will not be possible if the Converteam EMCAT is chosen instead: as similar as it will be in concept to the US EMALS, it won't be the same system, and in that case the UK will definitely have to make up, between the other things, a land-based catapult training area, possibly adapting a part of Culdrose to build a CVF's deck-structured runway.

[Fedaykin]

The other one to watch for will be ground test rigs for the EMALs system and arrestor system. Will they do working simulators to train the crew in their use or will they go the whole hog and create an operational land based system for testing and training ?

If the UK does purchase EMALS then it will use the facilities at NAS Lakehurst. You only really need the arrester gear for currency training, the French navy used NAS Lakehurst for Rafale testing. With EMALS the UK effectively gets the testing for free as the Americans need to do it! Also UK pilots training for carrier operations will do it in America anyway on the T45 Goshawk using NAS Lakehursts catapult.

If the UK purchased the Converteam EMCAT then there will need to be a UK based land based set up for testing. Most logically it would be set up where they intend to operate the F35C.

[Scooter]

Interesting report as it shows senior RAF and RN officers are now considering the process towards carrier operations. Certainly it is clear that it will be all jointery whether the RN likes it or not, on the other hand I do see it as an admission from the RAF brass that if they want a replacement for the GR4 then they are more likely to get it if they work with the RN.

The article actually raises the more pressing issue of deck skills and the fact that the RN has no flightdeck personel who have recent experience of CATOBAR operations.

http://www.defensenews.com/story.php?i=5259976

Funny, the RN currently has pilots assigned to Super Hornet Squadrons as we speak.........

[Liger30]

It has AT LEAST from 2009, if not from earlier... but the exchange program will have to be expanded noticeably to prepare for the resurrection of proper UK carrier ops.

[Bager1968]

The article actually raises the more pressing issue of deck skills and the fact that the RN has no flightdeck personel who have recent experience of CATOBAR operations.

Funny, the RN currently has pilots assigned to Super Hornet Squadrons as we speak.........

Note that they were talking about "deck-handling skills" and "flightdeck personnel", NOT pilots.

Which is why, in my post above (#1474), I said:

All they have to do is, around 2016 or so, extend the current pilot exchange/training program with the USN to include flight deck personnel (especially trainees for the "throw & catch" jobs).

Get one full set of personnel fully up to speed by 2018, and then they will form the core of that part of the commissioning crew, and can train the rest of those needed.

No problem whatsoever!

[Scooter]

Note that they were talking about "deck-handling skills" and "flightdeck personnel", NOT pilots.

Which is why, in my post above (#1474), I said:

I stand corrected.............busy busy.

[Muscle-Manta]

The OCU would stay in Lossiemouth since the Tornado simulator and training is in there and it would make no sense to transfer them all)

617° Squadron
2° Squadron
13° Squadron
12° Squadron
31° Squadron

[for what i understood is the 9° and 14° Squadrons that will be closed down, either way for sure 2 Squadrons. The 617° will relocate to Marham.]

The F35C in the long term could have 14 airplanes in a large, common OCU/OEU managed by the RAF but used by the Navy as well. And ideally, in a smart, ideal world, there would be 4/5 Squadrons of 12 machines each.
If 4, two RAF (617° and 13° my suggestion, i want the Dambusters to live on!) and two Navy (800 and 801 NAS). If five, ideally i'd want a third RN unit (thus ensuring a full 36-strong airwing for QE), and it would be the 892 NAS that once flew Phantom from HMS Ark Royal IV. That would be an endless amount of awesome. 809 and 899 (ex-Sea Harrier units) could also be obvious candidate for resurrection. I'd love that.

As it stands, however, there's the risk that the sole 800 NAS will survive, and providing only crews, besides. The F35C risks being a "RAF only" toy, with very awful risk of seeing them horribly rarely on the deck of the carriers they should equip.
Hope the Royal Navy fights hard and gets its own in the coming years. Hopefully, the SDSR 2015 will give us clue.

The admirals will better bash hard on the point that we are buying the things for the carriers, goddamnit.

It would be nice to see 800 returning to Lossie after a break of around 50 years. I like the idea! Anybody hope to see F35c's (like the Buccaneers below at Lossie) in Navy livery with a carrier tail code?

[Liger30]

Yeah, but if Leuchars is closed and its three (the 6° already there, two more squadrons to reform next year) squadrons of Typhoons and the QRA North are moved into Lossiemouth as it appears quite probable from the latest rumours, it is unlikely that the F35C can be based as planned in Lossiemouth as well.

Doubt the base could have at once three Squadrons of Typhoon and the F35C fleet as well...
The F35C might end up in, say, Marham, which would otherwise inevitably close down with the retirement of the Tornado GR4.

[Scooter]

Yeah, but if Leuchars is closed and its three (the 6° already there, two more squadrons to reform next year) squadrons of Typhoons and the QRA North are moved into Lossiemouth as it appears quite probable from the latest rumours, it is unlikely that the F35C can be based as planned in Lossiemouth as well.

Doubt the base could have at once three Squadrons of Typhoon and the F35C fleet as well...
The F35C might end up in, say, Marham, which would otherwise inevitably close down with the retirement of the Tornado GR4.

If, the UK Government is trying to cut costs. I don't see the advantage of having mixed services operate from RN Carriers.

[F/A-18RN]

Love the picture, now thats what I call power projection. There are more jets on that flight line than will typically be embarked in peace time on a CVF yet thats not quite half the fixed wing assets HMS Eagle embarked.
By the way towards the top of the photo, to the right of the control tower, are those 'white triangles' three or four Sea Vixens with their wings folded?

[Scooter]

FLY NAVY

[Obi Wan Russell]

F-35s in RN markings? How about these?

[Liger30]

F-35s in RN markings? How about these?

Totally adorable.
That's what the UK F35C should look like in 2020.

The RAF should keep its hand off for once.

[LordJim]

If the F-35s are based at Lossiemouth is there any reason they could not carry out QRA north given that only 1 squadron would be on the carrier? If there was a surge surely a detachment of Typhoons could cover?

[19kilo10]

I thought they were closing Lossi?

[Liger30]

The most likely outcome now appears to be the closure of Leuchars instead.
The Tornado GR4 Squadrons such as 617° will move to Marham and be centralized there.

Leuchar's Typhoons Squadrons (the 6°, 43° and possibly 111°) would transfer to Lossie, which would become the new QRA Alert North centre. The 15° Squadron, the Tornado OCU, would remain in Lossiemouth along with the Tornado training equipment and simulator.

Since the F35C will be centralized in a single squadron, at least initially, Lossie could still get the F35 Squadron replacing the 15° in 2020, but if, as planned, the F35 fleet expands successively, the other squadrons might be based somewhere else. (Marham...?)

If the F-35s are based at Lossiemouth is there any reason they could not carry out QRA north given that only 1 squadron would be on the carrier? If there was a surge surely a detachment of Typhoons could cover?

I don't think the RAF wants a Strike platform as QRA asset. Besides, there will only be ONE active squadron of F35C at least for the first times, and they will never be that many even in the best case.
So, no. It does not appear plausible to expect them to cover the QRA role as well.
Besides, you'd have to re-relocate once more the 3 Typhoon Squadrons. I don't think it makes sense.

[Muscle-Manta]

F-35s in RN markings? How about these?

Love it Obi
Thanks for the art work!

[Portagee]

The most likely outcome now appears to be the closure of Leuchars instead.
The Tornado GR4 Squadrons such as 617° will move to Marham and be centralized there.

Leuchar's Typhoons Squadrons (the 6°, 43° and possibly 111°) would transfer to Lossie, which would become the new QRA Alert North centre. The 15° Squadron, the Tornado OCU, would remain in Lossiemouth along with the Tornado training equipment and simulator.

They have just spent a fortune on converting Leuchars from a Tornado base into a Typhoon base.

The government dare not be seen to have wasted that money by having to spend the same amount again converting another Tornado base into a Typhoon base.

Since the F35C will be centralized in a single squadron, at least initially, Lossie could still get the F35 Squadron replacing the 15° in 2020, but if, as planned, the F35 fleet expands successively, the other squadrons might be based somewhere else. (Marham...?)


I don't think the RAF wants a Strike platform as QRA asset. Besides, there will only be ONE active squadron of F35C at least for the first times, and they will never be that many even in the best case.
So, no. It does not appear plausible to expect them to cover the QRA role as well.
Besides, you'd have to re-relocate once more the 3 Typhoon Squadrons. I don't think it makes sense.

Use Lossie as the Main operating base for the F35C fleet initially, chances are we'll get shore based F35C before QE is fully ready. If the RAF are to ge a number of F35Cs then as numbers build the Navy can move back south as we reach muliple squadron strengths.

A lot of English based media have gone on about basing F35 at Lossie and it being so far away from the Carrier's base. Why not use that to it's advantage. On each return to base the Carrier does a tour of the UK with fly pasts etc as flag waving exercises to boost recruitment etc. Drops off its aircraft and lets remember it doesn't exactly have to dock at Lossie to off load, before heading back.

[RN Phantom]

A lot of English based media have gone on about basing F35 at Lossie and it being so far away from the Carrier's base. Why not use that to it's advantage. On each return to base the Carrier does a tour of the UK with fly pasts etc as flag waving exercises to boost recruitment etc. Drops off its aircraft and lets remember it doesn't exactly have to dock at Lossie to off load, before heading back.

Obviously they have no idea about Lossie's previous life as an FAA base for aircraft operating off carriers based in Plymouth. Fact checking and historical research mustn't be a strong point of theirs!

[Muscle-Manta]

F/A18 RN wrote;
By the way towards the top of the photo, to the right of the control tower, are those 'white triangles' three or four Sea Vixens with their wings folded?[/QUOTE]

That's was my thinking too, with a wing profile like that they can't be anything else!