CVF Construction

[party0929]

With the recent descovery that our £5.2 billion pound Adaptable carrriers are anything but surely they should look into the trade descriptions act as it's nearly the cost to adapt as to start a fresh as the original cost of the QE class was £3.8 billion which is the exact amount quoted by bean counter hammond we have been ripped off again more of the defence budget wasted the only way that the figures quoted could be true is if the decks weren't strong enough for an F-35c to be crashing into it on landing and additional strengthing would be required or BAE changed the design in build to save money and there asn't enough room for the 90m emals launcher.
This incident proves that the defence of this country should be taken out of politicians control and made independant with a set budget written into law of say 2.5 % GDP which would allow for a proper equipement program to be funded in the long term and should negate the need for large expensive UOR to be purchased except in exceptional circumstances,also the Nuclear detterant should be funded seperatly as dispite what they say its a political weapon not a military one as its there descison to use it not the military's.

[bazv]

The trouble is also because wastospace are the primary contractor for the CVF build it is simply not in their interests to convert the carriers to emals/catobar - they are likely safeguarding their workshare in F35b by giving extortionate quotes for conversion.If we had catobar then we would not be in the cul de sac of hobsons choice of a/c,and sanity might have prevailed and seen F35b/c dropped completely in favour of a better a/c.
Wastospace have milked the taxpayer for 30yrs or so and they can be extremely devious.

[kev 99]

The trouble is also because wastospace are the primary contractor for the CVF build it is simply not in their interests to convert the carriers to emals/catobar - they are likely safeguarding their workshare in F35b by giving extortionate quotes for conversion.If we had catobar then we would not be in the cul de sac of hobsons choice of a/c,and sanity might have prevailed and seen F35b/c dropped completely in favour of a better a/c.
Wastospace have milked the taxpayer for 30yrs or so and they can be extremely devious.

That's clearly rubbish, UK's commitments has always been to F35 the possibility of changing to Rafeal or Hornet has only really existed in the minds of the likes of Lewis Page.

[bazv]

A high proportion of uk military aircraft procurement has been 'jobs for the boys' - and quite often then our servicemen have to make do with sub standard equipment,the carrier is way too 'Rolls Royce'...we only need the 'Ford' version...anything to do with wastospace is extortionate it is disastrous to only have one company in control of our 'defence'.
They could not even successfully build a relatively simple maritime aircraft based on a 1940's airliner...yes that is how good they are
I still remember sitting in a bar 'somewhere near warton' many years ago and laughing with a few other guys about the comedy idea of putting those engines into the wing root of the Nimblerod

[kev 99]

You honestly think that BAE would turn down the chance of a lucrative contract to convert the 2 carriers because they think that the MOD will change it's commitment to the F35 which it has already contributed funds to develop so that it can buy something else that would go into service around the same time?

That's as daft a conspiracy theory as I've ever heard.

The carrier isn't Rolls Royce at all, it's fairly obviously a very cheap aircraft carrier, the MOD even scrimped on the cost of steel

[bazv]

No Kev...what I was saying is that wastospace have a lucrative workshare in the F35b (not sure if they have a definite workshare in f35c ?) ,the B has been under a lot of very understandable pressure because of its many and varied problems.
They might view converting to emals as weakening the position of the B and therefore (potentially) their profits.
As I said - I am not sure if they have a workshare of F35C or not,but I am sure somebody will know on here.

rgds baz

[kev 99]

No Kev...what I was saying is that wastospace have a lucrative workshare in the F35b (not sure if they have a definite workshare in f35c ?) ,the B has been under a lot of very understandable pressure because of its many and varied problems.
They might view converting to emals as weakening the position of the B and therefore (potentially) their profits.
As I said - I am not sure if they have a workshare of F35C or not,but I am sure somebody will know on here.

rgds baz

They have the same workshare in all three varients. It's Rolls Royce that would lose money if we switched from B to C.

Your conspiracy theory doesn't hold up.

[bazv]

But as I said at the beginning...if you have catobar then you are not stuck with the F35
...at least until fairly recently we were not locked into buying F35 at all.
This definitely smells a little like JFTBoys...employment for oop north,it would be a brave govmint that bought away from home in 2012

[kev 99]

And as I sad at the begining the possibility of buying either of the alternatives has always been a non-starter; the MOD wants 5th gen and always has, so JSF it is.

[mrmalaya]

No Kev...what I was saying is that wastospace have a lucrative workshare in the F35b (not sure if they have a definite workshare in f35c ?) ,the B has been under a lot of very understandable pressure because of its many and varied problems.
They might view converting to emals as weakening the position of the B and therefore (potentially) their profits.
As I said - I am not sure if they have a workshare of F35C or not,but I am sure somebody will know on here.

rgds baz

This is the exact line that Lewis Page/Moody () tried to put out on the Today program in the week.

Its utter rubbish. The UK was never going to fly anything other than the F35 off of its decks. There is no evidence to show that any formal attempts to buy Rafale or god forbid the SH were in play.

Far better for some it seems that we lose our defence industry capability and buy off the shelf so that we can have a "proper carrier".

[Prom]

the carrier is way too 'Rolls Royce'...

Such as?

it is disastrous to only have one company in control of our 'defence'.

We don't- take 2011 figures

300,000 - Number of people employed by the defence industry overall in the UK
40,000 - Number of employees BAE Systems has in the UK
9,000 - Number of defence companies in the UK, including small businesses.


I'm one of those other 260,000, and whilst BAES are not perfect, they are no worse than any of the big defence companies (US, French or Italian) and the accusations often made about them are mostly complete conspiracy ********


For every decision the Mod or UK defence industry makes (including several of my own) there usually at least a few people on the internet who are absolutely convinced that they know better. Usually on the basis of one conversation, a sales blurb or the fact that one product 'looks better'. I sometimes wonder why I bother reading the thousands of pages of analysis when it is apparently so easy

[mrmalaya]

There is also the the ultra-jaded, ex-service element of the anti-BAE (read any massive defence firm) lobby to consider.

[swerve]

...the carrier is way too 'Rolls Royce'...we only need the 'Ford' version......

USS Ford is far more expensive, both overall & per ton, despite not having Rolls-Royce engines.

[bazv]

USS Ford is far more expensive, both overall & per ton, despite not having Rolls-Royce engines.

Yes as you guessed - I meant in price not quality LOL

[bazv]

[QUOTE=Prom;1889577]

Such as?


We don't- take 2011 figures

300,000 - Number of people employed by the defence industry overall in the UK
40,000 - Number of employees BAE Systems has in the UK
9,000 - Number of defence companies in the UK, including small businesses.


I'm one of those other 260,000, and whilst BAES are not perfect, they are no worse than any of the big defence companies (US, French or Italian) and the accusations often made about them are mostly complete conspiracy ********


/QUOTE]

I note the numbers you quote...no arguments there but what I mean is that wastospace are prime contractor and therefore control what is effectively a monopoly !

rgds baz

[bazv]

There is also the the ultra-jaded, ex-service element of the anti-BAE (read any massive defence firm) lobby to consider.

We are ultra jaded for a very good reason young man
I am ex RAF and ex wastospace as well...so what does that make me in the jaded stakes

Some years ago there were at least a few different companies around to vary the c0ck ups but now wastospace have a monopoly on it,they have closed all the decent sites and we are left with Shhhh you know where

rgds baz

[mrmalaya]

don't worry bazv, its not personal. I have long complained of how the ultra-jaded have given up on the future of the country

[graeme65]

As I understand it the Aircraft Carrier Alliance were comissioned to do a study on the conversion to CATOBAR and that this study was due to report at the end of this year. Not now.

That would suggest that the 1.8 or 2 billon figure, it seemed to rise by the day towards the end, was generated as a guesstimate by the MOD and the Treasury. If this mad number is not from BAE, then it would be rather harsh to blame them for it.

[bazv]

All numbers from BAE are mad,I wouldnt give them the benefit of the doubt !

[Prom]

All numbers from BAE are mad,I wouldnt give them the benefit of the doubt !

The ACA is an alliance, that has Thales and Babcock working alongside BAES and a large number of (sub-)contractors. And crucially it also has RN personnel sitting at desks in the same office, on the same IT

The cost estimate is not a wet finger in the air job, it is the sum of hundreds of change requests, each costed and reviewed by number of people from those different organisations - including the RN.

Many of those people passionately wanted CATOBAR, both because they thought it would be better, and in some cases they had added incentive because their job depended on the conversion going ahead.


Yet people on the internet who have never seen a single drawing, specification or design document of this ship know better.

[Mpacha]

Time to open another thread!