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Thread: Red Eagles: book opinion?

  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sens View Post
    So it does seem that aircraft identifications is neither a strong point of US-pilots nor of the author.
    In the first instance, getting a confirmed ID on aircraft that no longer exist, which are captured in only a handful of images, and which are technically still classified is not easy.

    Secondly, the operational limits of the a/c were not the same as the speeds the Red Eagles flew them at.

    So, no, your statement is not accurate.

  2. #32
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    Congrats Steve! I will definitely be buying your book now that I am on holiday! It's definitely appreciated that we now have access to information about such AC that comes from professionals and not fanboys.
    We are all fanboys/girls at heart. Once we cease to become one we should forsake aviation.

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by LmRaptor View Post
    Congrats Steve! I will definitely be buying your book now that I am on holiday! It's definitely appreciated that we now have access to information about such AC that comes from professionals and not fanboys.
    Appreciate the kind comments - it was great to hear these crusty old fighter guys share their stories. I hope you enjoy them, too.

  4. #34
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    I will then stand back and watch them expose you for the clown that you are.
    That is maybe too rude don't you think?

    The 'crap' comments about the motor shedding blades are made by experienced fighter pilots who flew these two versions of Flogger (and the MS in particular), who ran the mishap investigations into the three losses and two additional spin incidents, and had access to Soviet accident and engineering reports that detailed the problem quite clearly.
    And in my post i posted what are the thoughts of again experienced pilots(Bulgarian) that flew MiG-23BN/ML.. variants about these statements. Call my view biased, because i am Bulgarian too, but i value their opinion more and they stated that such things are just not true.

    Actually, the issue referenced above, as discussed in the book, has nothing to do with AB. It is about structural loads twisting the motor mounts during spins, and the propensity of the MS in particular to spin with little or no tactile warning.
    What martinez and i discussed about is this:
    The pilot didn't like the idea of doing Mach 2.5 straight down and pulled back on the throttle and...nothing happened.
    And as was said the reason is that the fuel automatic must keep enough fuel pressure, so the engine will have normal burning process. When the height is increased, the RPM of the engine is increased too, to the point at 12 000m, when the engine works on maximal. In that stage the only way to again retain full control of the engine is to reduce the height.

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by pesho View Post
    That is maybe too rude don't you think?
    No, I think that it is a proportional response to him saying that my interviewees talked "crap". I have offered him the chance to question them directly, and I hope he takes them up on this. It is also a reflection of inane comments that he has made previously here about FME, which effectively brackets everything I now read of his.

    Quote Originally Posted by pesho View Post
    And in my post i posted what are the thoughts of again experienced pilots(Bulgarian) that flew MiG-23BN/ML.. variants about these statements. Call my view biased, because i am Bulgarian too, but i value their opinion more and they stated that such things are just not true.
    I think that time-scales are important here. The Red Eagles operated the BN (officially, at least) between 1980 and 1988. If your Bulgarian contacts have conflicting views that are based on experiences in the same timescale, then it would be interesting to explore these further. I would expect them to be very credible. The Red Eagles did not fly the ML version.

    You have to bear in mind that not all of the Red Eagles agreed with one another on some issues, particularly the on the MiG-23. It is perfectly possible that some Bulgarian Flogger pilots will disagree with some American Flogger pilots, therefore. No big deal, really.

    Quote Originally Posted by pesho View Post
    And as was said the reason is that the fuel automatic must keep enough fuel pressure, so the engine will have normal burning process. When the height is increased, the RPM of the engine is increased too, to the point at 12 000m, when the engine works on maximal. In that stage the only way to again retain full control of the engine is to reduce the height.
    Interesting explanation.

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Davies View Post
    In the first instance, getting a confirmed ID on aircraft that no longer exist, which are captured in only a handful of images, and which are technically still classified is not easy.

    Secondly, the operational limits of the a/c were not the same as the speeds the Red Eagles flew them at.

    So, no, your statement is not accurate.
    http://air-combat.suite101.com/artic...wn_by_the_usaf

    Since 1990 nothing was classified any longer after the unification of Germany.

    It is will be intresting to learn, in which way the Amercian pilots have had translated the metric data of those MiGs and Sukhois.
    Those aircraft did not come without some infos from pilots and the main parameter for a safe operation were known.
    By the way, the standard Machmeter in the MiG-21F13 does go till Mach 2,5.
    The record speed of the E-66 was 2388 km/h or Mach 2,25.
    Last edited by Sens; 7th July 2009 at 18:26.

  7. #37
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    I think that time-scales are important here. The Red Eagles operated the BN (officially, at least) between 1980 and 1988. If your Bulgarian contacts have conflicting views that are based on experiences in the same timescale, then it would be interesting to explore these further. I would expect them to be very credible. The Red Eagles did not fly the ML version.
    You have to bear in mind that not all of the Red Eagles agreed with one another on some issues, particularly the on the MiG-23. It is perfectly possible that some Bulgarian Flogger pilots will disagree with some American Flogger pilots, therefore. No big deal, really.
    I'm now reading the forum and it seems that both pilot groups agree on two things. The huge power/acceleration and how unforgiving the plane was. The difference is that our pilots loved MiG-23.
    Interesting explanation.
    That was given to me by ground maintenance crew from Bulgaria and retired MiG-23MS russian pilot.

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sens View Post
    http://air-combat.suite101.com/artic...wn_by_the_usaf

    Since 1990 nothing was classified any longer after the unification of Germany.
    Thanks, but that's simply not true, and the article you linked to it full of errors.

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by pesho View Post
    The difference is that our pilots loved MiG-23.
    I am sure they did - it certainly had some excellent characteristics. Bear in mind, however, that the opinions in the book (and on the forum) come from men who had flown the F-15, F-16 and F/A-18 before they ever set eyes on the Flogger, so their frame of reference is quite different.

    Quote Originally Posted by pesho View Post
    That was given to me by ground maintenance crew from Bulgaria and retired MiG-23MS russian pilot.
    You see, that's the kind of useful contribution that I can actually work with to provide a counterbalance should the book ever go to a second edition. Thanks.

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sens View Post
    It is will be intresting to learn, in which way the Amercian pilots have had translated the metric data of those MiGs and Sukhois.
    From memory, they installed their own pitot static systems. The forum I linked to is the best place to ask, as the pilots and maintainers who were there will know the exact details.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sens View Post
    Those aircraft did not come without some infos from pilots and the main parameter for a safe operation were known.
    True. They had defector reports, a few even interviewed defectors directly, and they had roughly translated manuals (a few of which I have). In addition, the Red Hats test flew each type before the Red Eagles took them into service.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sens View Post
    By the way, the standard Machmeter in the MiG-21F13 does go till Mach 2,5.
    Good info. Thanks.

  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Davies View Post

    Good info. Thanks.
    Chinese J-6 goes till M 1.6 when the manual states Vmax 1452 km/h at 10500m

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    Quote Originally Posted by edi_right_round View Post
    Chinese J-6 goes till M 1.6 when the manual states Vmax 1452 km/h at 10500m
    What is close to Mach 1,4 - but we have to keep in mind, that such air-pressure speed indicators were as reliable as those in a car from the 60s or even today.
    Close to the shown top-speed the surplus deviation of ~10% is nothing strange.
    The Iraqi MiG-21F13 was not flown above Mach 1,7 for safety reasons by Danny Shapira, when it was transported to the USA in January 1968. For the adversary training and real combat supersonic was no issue. Despite the claim from my link, the diplomatic relationship with the SU did not allow a transfer into the USA. When the SU did broke that ties in June 67 and did not restore it, that MiG could be transported as the remains and spare parts from ~14 damaged MiG-21s at Bir Gifgafa AB in the Sinai. The fairy-tale about the error of 6 Algerian MiG-21s at El Arish aside.

    By an USAF error an ex EAF MiG-21 was handed back to the Hatzerim museum in Israel. After an Egyptian protest, that error was corrected.

    To avoid a misunderstanding, I would buy and read that book for the pilot reports only. It is more about their way of thinking and behavior than to learn something new from their claims in general. In several books we can find reports about shortcomings of aircraft or engines reported again and again, when that were corrected long before. By my opinion the main task of an author to allow the reader to balance some ****-and-bull stories by known data in the meanwhile.
    Last edited by Sens; 7th July 2009 at 20:17.

  13. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Davies View Post
    I am sure they did - it certainly had some excellent characteristics. Bear in mind, however, that the opinions in the book (and on the forum) come from men who had flown the F-15, F-16 and F/A-18 before they ever set eyes on the Flogger, so their frame of reference is quite different.



    You see, that's the kind of useful contribution that I can actually work with to provide a counterbalance should the book ever go to a second edition. Thanks.

    My Hollyday is up and you just sold yourself another book Steve
    Just ordered it.


    B.t.w. can you reckomend any others books(other authors) on the same material or later migs and Sukhois models?




    Thanks

  14. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by haavarla View Post
    My Hollyday is up and you just sold yourself another book Steve
    Just ordered it.

    B.t.w. can you reckomend any others books(other authors) on the same material or later migs and Sukhois models?

    Thanks
    Excellent

    I can't say that I know of any other books that detail FME by the US in the same way as the Red Eagles book. At least, nothing out in the shops now.

    However, I do know someone who is working on a Red Hats book, but once again, it (like the Red Eagles book) is not really aimed at the sort of technically-inclined reader on these forums.

    Col. Gail Peck, the man behind the Constant Peg programme, is writing his own book about the Red Eagles. I have read his manuscript and it is very interesting - as a work-in-progress, it will steadily evolve into a very worthwhile addition to any book shelf. That said, it is not at all technically-driven, and may once again disappoint those readers here that are interested in some of the more complex and involved descriptions of aircraft and systems.

    Sorry I cannot be of more help at this time.

    Cheers

    Steve

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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Davies View Post
    If you want to argue with them about this, then I invite you and everyone else here to visit the Red Eagles forum .
    Thank you very much for your invitation, but I find the Constant peg forum a waste of time. I asked several questions some time ago but no one ever did answer that, so I got impression that time they flew Migs is almost forgotten past and they might not remember it correctly. I understand, it`s better to be quiet than to say something wrong and making clowns out of themselves.
    Anyway, I do not need to go to your forum and ask those pilots about the Mig-23. I beg your pardon but they never operated that handful of Mig-23 in a way they should, or the rest of the world maintainers did. We operated 80 Migs-23(BN,MF,ML,UB) for almost 25 years. I have plenty of colleagues, some still working with me at the a/c repair plant, other former pilots I can discuss this matter with them from down to dusk. I do have access to aircraft documentation, military manuals, the airforce aircraft incident database, simply things you would never get access to in your life.

    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Davies View Post
    Actually, the issue referenced above, as discussed in the book, has nothing to do with AB. It is about structural loads twisting the motor mounts during spins,
    The issue we are talking about is well connected to the R-29 engine-control system, the stall prevention/relight system as well as to aircraft flight regimes(high AOA and sideslip). You are seriously lacking knowledge about the engine, do your research again please rather than believing anecdotes of senile old men.


    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Davies View Post
    If that's the impression they get about the MS or BN, then good. .
    Great achievement, when reader`s impression is based on dumb anecdotes, mostly with no technical value. Really, it doesnt bother me if you are critical, but compare and crosscheck your US sources before posting blunders.
    <Find a job you like doing, and you'll never have to work a day in your life>

  16. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Davies View Post
    Thanks for the feedback, MiGMan.

    Would be interested in knowing why you feel this way (genuinely). I didn't think that the text would give the impression that *all* MiG-23s were the same; and I thought I had treated the different MiG-21s and copies individually.

    This is definitely something I can look at if you can present some specific examples that you have picked up on.
    hiya!

    not trying to sound nit picky, and i do realize perfectly well the info may not have been available, but from an honest curiosity point of view when reading the stories (if the info becomes/is available) would loved to know whether the pilots were referring to the mig-21F,or the MF/bis in their recollections. Its a very small thing, but would add to the accounts

    (similar sort of thing when authors write about the Falklands and refer to mirages and daggers as just "mirages", its kinda a bumber as aviation enthusiasts always love to know specific types )

    No, it would not have.

    In the first place, it was researched from scratch, required a significant amount of relationship building to get people to open up, and called on more than 80 hours of interviews - all things that Mr Gordon is not renowned for.

    In the second instance, this book is a collection of anecdotes - I did not present it, and do not pretend that it is, a technically-impeccable book about data, statistics and side-by-side comparisons. I would love to have written such a book, but the reality is that it would not have been accessible to the wider audience. It is what it says it is: a collection of stories that, to the best of my ability, I have tried to weave together to tell the story of the squadron.
    im not at all doubting your strenuous research effort, and, on reflection, probably did miss the point of the book (and I KNEW yeffim would a bad example ) i was more thinking along the lines of "what would of been really cool, on top of.." to see a small part of the book look at the comparative difference in mindsets, opinions between a WP pilots impression and a US pilots impression, or say an author whos worked a lot on the soviet side of things comment on the US pilot impressions compared to their research on soviet opinions, was more what i was getting at

    BTW if you ever find out the bort number of the afghan Su-22 the US acquired, i can provide the basic history behind the ac if you want *pretty sure it was 804, but 2 defected, so could be one, other... or both!)

    All the best!
    Last edited by MiGMan; 7th July 2009 at 21:54.

  17. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by martinez View Post
    Thank you very much for your invitation, but I find the Constant peg forum a waste of time. I asked several questions some time ago but no one ever did answer that, so I got impression that time they flew Migs is almost forgotten past and they might not remember it correctly. I understand, it`s better to be quiet than to say something wrong and making clowns out of themselves.
    That's a shame.

    There's a five page thread with posts from Ted Drake and a EGAF MiG-23 pilot which is very interesting. Crossi has had many answers to his questions there.

    Quote Originally Posted by martinez View Post
    I do have access to aircraft documentation, military manuals, the airforce aircraft incident database, simply things you would never get access to in your life.
    Says who? I have plenty of MiG-23 flight, tactics and mx manuals from a range of countries that operated the type. Your arrogance is astounding.

    Quote Originally Posted by martinez View Post
    You are seriously lacking knowledge about the engine, do your research again please rather than believing anecdotes of senile old men.
    That pretty much sums you up, Martinez. More putrid comments from someone who cannot stand to be wrong.

    And I don't think that any of the Red Eagles pilots, some of whom still work as SMEs in the FME and FWIC arenas, could be described as senile. But, hey, whatever floats your boat.

    I hate internet arguments for the waste of time that they are, so I will leave it there.

  18. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by MiGMan View Post
    hiya!

    not trying to sound nit picky, and i do realize perfectly well the info may not have been available, but from an honest curiosity point of view when reading the stories (if the info becomes/is available) would loved to know whether the pilots were referring to the mig-21F,or the MF/bis in their recollections. Its a very small thing, but would add to the accounts
    Migman

    That's useful feedback. I will have to check that if the book goes to a reprint. I wrote the book with the general reader in mind (if you've read my Strike Eagle book, you'll know I can be very technical if I want to be), but perhaps I went a little too far in not wishing to encumber the reader with things I didn't think they'd care about? Thanks for being so constructive in your feedback.

    Quote Originally Posted by MiGMan View Post
    hiya!
    BTW if you ever find out the bort number of the afghan Su-22 the US acquired, i can provide the basic history behind the ac if you want *pretty sure it was 804, but 2 defected, so could be one, other... or both!)

    All the best!
    I am definitely going to take you up on the offer. I have a photo of a Su-22 over Groom, taken in 1992, but it looks to me like an EGAF example. Should I PM you, or will you get in touch with me?

    Cheers

    Steve

  19. #49
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    hiya

    sorry haven't read your strike eagle book,but probably was a good call not to go too technical on this book, can always do it in the next

    (btw the involvement of the red eagles in Somalia was something i was completely unaware of, but really fascinating, if there are more examples of this with other nations, would make for good reading!)

    just sent you a PM on here with my email address

    btw, someones built up a collection of red eagle models (cant remember which show):



    regards

  20. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Davies View Post
    That's a shame.

    Says who? I have plenty of MiG-23 flight, tactics and mx manuals from a range of countries that operated the type. Your arrogance is astounding.


    That pretty much sums you up, Martinez. More putrid comments from someone who cannot stand to be wrong.

    Hey, maybe he'll write a book and correct all of your egregious errors. Maybe I'll buy it, like I did yours. Hmm...second thought...naw. I'm not good enough to read it.

    I'm looking at buying a few other books......I think I'll buy these too.

    F-15C/E Eagle Units of Operation Iraqi Freedom


    F-15E Strike Eagle Units in Combat 1990-2005


    F-15 Eagle & Strike Eagle -Cmbt Leg


    F-16 Fighting Falcon Units of Operation Iraqi Freedom


    Boeing F-15E Strike Eagle: All-Weather Attack Aircraft


    F-15C Eagle Units in Combat

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    hey pesho!

    im guessing the soviet mig-23MS pilot you know was part of the training group based at Tokmok/Tokmak, in now Kyrgyzstan?

    From what ive read it seems the soviets only operated a handful of the type for training foreign 23MS operators?

  22. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by MiGMan View Post
    hey pesho!

    im guessing the soviet mig-23MS pilot you know was part of the training group based at Tokmok/Tokmak, in now Kyrgyzstan?

    From what ive read it seems the soviets only operated a handful of the type for training foreign 23MS operators?
    Or Lugovoye or a few other airbases where VVS used -23MS also....

  23. #53
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    Steve,

    I have read the book for what it is... an 'ancedotal' history of the programme.
    It is full of 'personal' views and opinions.. that's its charm and appeal.

    The technical side is to a certain extent irrelevant..

    What I find interesting in the different views epxressed here is the seeming inability or unwillingness to understand that the USAF may indeed not have known and understood all of the operating proceedures that the WP would have to hand. So whilst those looking at the history from a perspective of day to day operations backed up by formal training and support infrastrucutre willl point out some obvious 'errors' in maintenance and operation they give no credit to the fact it was done at all.

    I can imagine that when a comparable book about the Soviet operation of western fighters emerges that a similar issue may arise....oobivous operational omissions are easy to point out.

    Looking forward to the next book dealing with the more recent fighters...

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    Quote Originally Posted by michelf View Post
    Steve,

    I have read the book for what it is... an 'ancedotal' history of the programme.
    It is full of 'personal' views and opinions.. that's its charm and appeal.

    The technical side is to a certain extent irrelevant..

    What I find interesting in the different views epxressed here is the seeming inability or unwillingness to understand that the USAF may indeed not have known and understood all of the operating proceedures that the WP would have to hand. So whilst those looking at the history from a perspective of day to day operations backed up by formal training and support infrastrucutre willl point out some obvious 'errors' in maintenance and operation they give no credit to the fact it was done at all.

    I can imagine that when a comparable book about the Soviet operation of western fighters emerges that a similar issue may arise....oobivous operational omissions are easy to point out.

    Looking forward to the next book dealing with the more recent fighters...
    Excellent summary.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Davies View Post
    Says who? I have plenty of MiG-23 flight, tactics and mx manuals from a range of countries that operated the type. Your arrogance is astounding.
    Says who?? You make me laugh. If you had any you wouldnt write that retarded story about the "hydro-mechanical inhibitor" as the main reason causing the aircraft not able to slow down or even those remarks about catastrophic explosions, page 225....those are presumably your words.
    Your rant only proves that you have no clue what you`re talking about. Over 20 countries operated the type Mig-23 and I never heard from our airforce, nor reading in any incident report or Mig-23 books quoting experiences of foreign pilots regarding complaints and concerns of "hydro-mechanical inhibitor preventing the engine to slow down", although the whole engine family R-27,R-29,R-35(Mig-23MF,ML,MLD) had the same feature as well as later RD-33 engine when passing Mach1.5 giving a surplus of thrust at high altitudes and speeds. Now, you came up with a bunch of anecdotes from the U.S. Constant peg program, bitching on everything related to the type Mig-23. Your arrogance is above anyone really and that is a fact.
    If you ever worked near aircrafts, especially with engines you would know that stall might occur even if throttling up and down very quickly. The abrupt pressure drop, airflow gets out of balance and the required pressure distribution in the engine is disturbed what can generate extremely loud bangs like when strucking metal comming from intake inside. Outcome could be a flame-out and loosing thrust. The so called "hydro-mechanical inhibitor" is there to prevent the engine from stalling to ensure compressor stable work unless the speeds drops below Mach1,15. Today, many of modern turbofans are still susceptible to aggressive throttle movements, even more sophisticated stall prevention/relight control systems might need some time to recover and initiate in re-light sequence.

    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Davies View Post
    That pretty much sums you up, Martinez. More putrid comments from someone who cannot stand to be wrong.
    BS, it suits to you much better, when trying to discuss technical aspects while backing up that with anecdotal stories of U.S. pilots.
    Last edited by martinez; 8th July 2009 at 17:46.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LmRaptor View Post
    Congrats Steve! I will definitely be buying your book now that I am on holiday! It's definitely appreciated that we now have access to information about such AC that comes from professionals and not fanboys.
    A professional point of view only comes from pilots that were instructed and trained to fly the aircraft. The jocks who had the guts to enter the cockpit and fly something foreign without having clue of how it works are surely impressive and daring guys, but to call them 'professionals' is a bit strechted, don't you think?.
    Last edited by flex297; 8th July 2009 at 12:49.

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    Quote Originally Posted by michelf View Post
    Steve,

    The technical side is to a certain extent irrelevant..

    What I find interesting in the different views epxressed here is the seeming inability or unwillingness to understand that the USAF may indeed not have known and understood all of the operating proceedures that the WP would have to hand.....
    Thanks, very delicately said, especially when considering F-16, F-15 pilots have flown the Migs. What comical anecdotes would a F-16 pilot say after flying in the F-4 cockpit?
    <Find a job you like doing, and you'll never have to work a day in your life>

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    Quote Originally Posted by flex297 View Post
    A professional point of view only comes from pilots that were instructed and trained to fly the aircraft. A bunch of jocks who had the guts to enter the cockpit and fly something foreign without having clue of how it works are surely impressive guys, but 'professionals' they surely ain't.
    That`s typical idiotism of some fanboys. Opinions of few U.S. pilots risking lives in poorly maintained soviet aircrafts are more professional than thousands of east block pilots flying the aircraft regularly every day.
    <Find a job you like doing, and you'll never have to work a day in your life>

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    Guys, could you please debate this without resorting to personal attacks and insults ?

    Thank you !
    Regards,

    Frank

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    Quote Originally Posted by flex297 View Post
    A professional point of view only comes from pilots that were instructed and trained to fly the aircraft. The jocks who had the guts to enter the cockpit and fly something foreign without having clue of how it works are surely impressive and daring guys, but to call them 'professionals' is a bit strechted, don't you think?.
    No Flex, I think the word professional is completely apt for what I was refering to. These pilots may not have been formally trained in the operation of Soviet Migs but are undoubtedly professionals. They wouldn't have managed to conduct such an operation if this wasn't the case.

    You wouldn't call a test pilot a coward and I certainly wouldn't you call a test pilot "unprofessional"? A test pilot on a new airframe hasn't been instructed or trained to fly the new jet but that doesn't mean he's any less a professional than any other pilot - in my book at least - infact he has been considered skillful enough to write the book on it himself. This is probably the kind of piloting quality that was vital for the Red Eagles.

    In addition to this, these chaps had the goal of evalutating the performance of the aircraft - so they weren't bound by traditional rivalries or the need to "big up" their own jets. The result of them getting things wrong or telling lies to make the Migs appear cr@pper to appease yankie fanboys could be the loss US lives - so yes these were definitely professionals. You may be inclined to believe that they have now decided to lie or forget things in their old age.

    If I want opinions on the flight charactertics of an aircraft I don't talk to the glorified mechanics/technicians - I talk to the pilot or the engineer who wrote the laws. If I want to know how well the maintenance procedures designed by the engineer have worked in the real world - I talk to the maintenance crew. So yes I am happy we have access to new sources - and not fanboys with opinions.
    We are all fanboys/girls at heart. Once we cease to become one we should forsake aviation.

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