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Thread: The Brand New IAF Thread (VIII) - Flamers NOT Welcome.

  1. #601
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rajan View Post
    238 MKI or 230? Is it in addition to upgraded SU-30K? How man K did IAF have?
    The IAF received a total of 18 Su-30K which were put to storage quite a few years ago. The plan for upgrading these aircraft to MKI standard was abondoned and the India signed a deal in 2006 to receive 18 new built Su-30MKI for 270 mln USD. Those stored Su-30K were to be returned to the manufacturer (IAPO). All in all the IAF should get 280 aircraft now (140 HAL built and 140 IAPO built).

  2. #602
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    Interview: Chief of Air Staff, Air Chief Marshal P.V. NAIK PVSM, VSM, ADC

    FORCE October 2009 www.forceindia.net
    ‘IAF is Trying to Maximise the Space Domain for Conduct of Its Operations’
    Chief of Air Staff, Air Chief Marshal P.V. NAIK PVSM, VSM, ADC

    What space-based capabilities have been achieved so far, what interaction does the IAF have with ISRO, and what is the road-map until 2020?

    IAF is trying to maximise the space domain for conduct of its operations. The main thrust is to leverage the existing space assets to enhance operation capability, network centricity, communications, ISR requirements and meteorological applications. Requirements of IAF have increased manifold, therefore, we are maintaining close liaison with ISRO through Space Directorate under a two star officer. For jointmanship, an ‘Integrated Space Cell’ (ISC) is functional under HQ IDS. In order to enable seamless operations by the armed forces, towards safeguarding India’s security interests, a defence strategy and doctrine for harnessing existing space assets, as well as shaping future space requirements is under formulation.

    In the prevalent internal and external security scenario, what is more desirable: more and better surveillance or strike capabilities? It is understood that all IAF strike aircraft do not have suitable electronic warfare pod. What is being done to overcome this deficiency?

    Surveillance and strike capability are complementary to each other and without one, the other is no good. Without proper surveillance, one will not be able to do effective targeting. Similarly, if one is not able to strike precisely when required, maintaining a round the clock surveillance is futile.

    All strike aircraft of the IAF have a suitable electronic warfare suite. Since the future electronic battlefield environment is expected to be highly dense, IAF is constantly upgrading its inventory with modern electronic warfare equipment to fight effectively in a dense electronic battlefield.



    What is being done to fill the 15 to 20 ton capability gap in transport aircraft? What is the replacement for An-32 aircraft, and are there moves to acquire more IL-76 aircraft or of similar category?

    IAF transport fleet is a mix of heavy, medium and light transport aircraft. The transport fleet is set to expand in a big way. A programme for joint development of Medium Transport aircraft (MTA) in 15-20 tonne class by India and Russia is underway. The aircraft would be for the Russian Air Force and the IAF. In addition, various procurement schemes are being progressed.

    Suitable replacement for An-32 and IL-76 aircraft would be initiated at an appropriate time based on the Long Term Perspective Plan of the IAF. The IAF is upgrading the AN-32 and there are no immediate plans to replace this aircraft. IAF is also looking for an aircraft of 70 ton capability. These inductions along with the C-130J will definitely fulfil our requirements for mobility and projection.

    Are there plans to place more orders, in addition to 20 aircraft for LCA MkI? How closely is the IAF working with HAL and ADA to decide on the new engine for replacement of Kaveri? What, according to the IAF is the future of Kaveri?

    In September 2005, Defence Acquisition Committee had approved procurement of 40 LCAs. Accordingly, IAF had ordered 20 LCA in Initial Operational Clearance (IOC) Mark-I standard in March 2006. Decision on order for 20 more LCAs in Final Operational Clearance (FOC) Mark-I standard with the existing GE F 404-IN 20 engine is yet to be taken. IAF is working closely with HAL and ADA, to decide the new engine for LCA Mark II standard aircraft.

    DRDO has been proposed to form a suitable JV, so as to develop Kaveri engine to meet the requirements of future combat aircraft programme. The expertise gained on the programme should be utilised by GTRE along with HAL and other Defence PSUs for further development.

    Can the LCH, whose prototype is expected to fly this year, be a contender for the IAF requirement of 22 attack helicopters? What is the status of the acquisition of 22 attack helicopters?

    The Light Combat Helicopter (LCH) is a 5-6 tonne class of combat helicopter envisaged for specific roles. The LCH differs with the attack helicopter in terms of tonnage, weapons, endurance, operating envelope and engine performance. Hence, LCH is not a contender for the IAF requirement of attack helicopters. More so, the LCH is still under development by HAL.

    The status of the procurement of Attack Helicopter is that the RFP was issued in end-May 2009. A pre-bid meeting was held in July 2009 and the Techno Commercial Offer is expected to be submitted by the vendor in October 2009.

    What were the glitches with Hawk and have they been removed? Why has the IAF sought different advanced trainers rather than acquire more Hawks?

    There were some problems initially with the induction of the Hawk. Most of these problems pertained to spares supply-chain and inventory management. Few problems like these are expected during the initial induction of a new weapon system of this scale. However, the management and in-country representatives of BAE Systems, along with HAL have been able to sort out the issues and get on to a common platform. Adequate amounts of spares and consumables have been put in place, to enhance availability and serviceability of the Hawk aircraft.

    The IAF is working on its requirements for additional advanced trainers. The present training structure ensures that the Standard of Preparation (SOP) of the Hawk MK-132 AJT meet the fleet training requirements of the IAF. The training pattern caters to the operational capabilities of frontline fighter aircraft, planned for induction in the long term. The SOP of Hawk Mk 132 AJT was agreed to by the IAF in the initial procurement and also in the case of additional requirement of AJT procurement approved by the ministry of defence.

    What is the progress on the modernisation of ADGES?


    IAF is in the process of modernisation of ADGES. The IAF is acquiring radars in various categories to meet modernisation requirements. Operationalisation of these radars will give adequate surveillance capability in our area of interest, from low-level to high-level, along with overlap and redundancy. The new inductions planned in the near future are IACCS, Medium Power Radars, Aerostats, LLTRs and LLLWRs. AWACS and two Aerostat Systems have already been inducted and have enhanced the AD capabilities of the IAF. Adequate budgetary support is available for these plans.

    What is the progress on IAF procurement of 125 LUH from abroad?

    The Light Utility Helicopter (LUH) is being procured for Recce and Surveillance roles to enhance the combat potential of the helicopter fleet of the IAF. The technical evaluation of all proposals has been completed and the field evaluations are likely to commence soon, to shortlist the helicopters that meet our operational requirements.

    What role does the IAF have in the fifth generation aircraft and the Multi-purpose Transport Aircraft? When do you expect the two to enter IAF service?

    IAF had formulated and issued Technical Requirements for the Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft (FGFA) in accordance with Long Term Perspective Plan. HAL and the Russian side are finalising the various aspects for co-design and production of the aircraft. Medium Transport Aircraft (MTA) shall be designed and manufactured by a Joint Venture Company formed between the HAL and Russian side. These aircraft are likely to enter the service in the beginning of our 13th plan period, i.e. after 2017.

    Is the IAF seeking to acquire more Su-30MKI and Mi-17IV from Russia and, if so, why is this accretion required?

    IAF’s aircraft inductions are based on our long term perspective plan that was derived out of the envisaged threat perception and the responsibilities that the IAF is tasked with during war and peace time.

    Su -30 MK I aircraft are being inducted as per our plan; with the HAL making these aircraft in India now. A contract for 80 Mi- 17 V5, a new variant of Mi-17 IV helicopter, was signed last year with the Russian side. These helicopters are expected to be delivered from next year.

    What is the progress on the Mirage-2000 and Jaguar upgrades? What do these entail, and especially for Jaguar, which engine, Rolls Royce or Honeywell, has found favour with the IAF?

    The IAF is planning to upgrade the Mirage-2000 and the negotiations are likely to fructify in the near future. The Jaguar aircraft is being upgraded with state-of-the-art avionics systems, so as to improve their navigational as well as weapon aiming accuracy.

    Jaguar aircraft is powered with Rolls Royce aero engines. Proposals for replacing the existing engine with a more powerful engine have been received from M/s Rolls Royce and M/s Honeywell. At present the proposals are under evaluation.

    A Joint Engine Evaluation Team (JEET) has been constituted, which includes representatives of IAF, HAL, ADA and DRDO and they are working on the proposals and their evaluation. As of now, there is no favourite with the IAF. All assessments are very comprehensive and I am sure the evaluation team will look into all the aspects.

    What is the status of network-centric warfare operations?

    Network-Centric Warfare capability demands Integration of Sensors with Shooter, as well as Command and Control System. It requires a secure network which can support high data rate with ability to interoperate with other networks. This provides better situational awareness among all the stakeholders. The IAF is already in the process of setting up such a Combat Network, incorporating latest state of the art technologies with built-in redundancies. The stated capabilities are being built through the implementation of projects like Integrated Air Command and Control Systems (IACCS), Operational Data Link (ODL), AF Network (AFNET) and last mile wireless connectivity in operational areas.

    Credits FORCE
    "A map does you no good if you don't know where you are"

  3. #603
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    Quote Originally Posted by matt View Post
    Extension of Defence Cooperation Agreement by Ten More Years to Top Agenda


    (Source: India Press Information Bureau; issued Oct. 9, 2009)


    (Emphasis added in bold typeface below)



    Both sides have, since, been working towards finalizing the programme for defence cooperation beyond 2011. The anticipated discussions at the commission level would pave the way for conclusion of the Agreement during Dr Singh’s forthcoming visit to Russia in December 2009 for the Summit meeting between him and President Medvedev.
    I expect first flight of PAK FA in front of Mr. Singh and Mr. Medvedev or atleast unveiling ....

  4. #604
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scorpion82 View Post
    The IAF received a total of 18 Su-30K which were put to storage quite a few years ago. The plan for upgrading these aircraft to MKI standard was abondoned and the India signed a deal in 2006 to receive 18 new built Su-30MKI for 270 mln USD. Those stored Su-30K were to be returned to the manufacturer (IAPO). All in all the IAF should get 280 aircraft now (140 HAL built and 140 IAPO built).
    Thank you. I thought that 18 SU-30K lead them to 238 instead of 230. Now it is 280 as we know. I want IAF buy 220 more SU-30 MKI. It is cheap and highly capable, specially for India's immediate opponents.

  5. #605
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    Quote Originally Posted by Austin View Post
    FORCE October 2009 www.forceindia.net
    ‘IAF is Trying to Maximise the Space Domain for Conduct of Its Operations’
    Chief of Air Staff, Air Chief Marshal P.V. NAIK PVSM, VSM, ADC

    Credits FORCE
    Austin thanks for sharing. It was very informative. One thing is clear , FGFA will enter into IAF service only after 2017 (as well as mentioned in PIB, GOI).

  6. #606
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    Shiv Aroor Just Flew the Gripen Again. Its his personal experience rather than a news item. I think its best read from his blog.

    http://livefist.blogspot.com/2009/10/shiv-aroor.html

  7. #607
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    Quote Originally Posted by Austin View Post
    Chief of Air Staff, Air Chief Marshal P.V. NAIK PVSM, VSM, ADC

    Are there plans to place more orders, in addition to 20 aircraft for LCA MkI? How closely is the IAF working with HAL and ADA to decide on the new engine for replacement of Kaveri? What, according to the IAF is the future of Kaveri?

    In September 2005, Defence Acquisition Committee had approved procurement of 40 LCAs. Accordingly, IAF had ordered 20 LCA in Initial Operational Clearance (IOC) Mark-I standard in March 2006. Decision on order for 20 more LCAs in Final Operational Clearance (FOC) Mark-I standard with the existing GE F 404-IN 20 engine is yet to be taken. IAF is working closely with HAL and ADA, to decide the new engine for LCA Mark II standard aircraft.
    The IAF will directly order Mk.2 jets that will come with the FoC standard. There is no use in ordering Mk.1 jets of FoC standard.

    Actually, the IoC jets themselves will serve extensively in the IAF to get the FoC certification. By that time, the Mk.2 wil be completed. Hence, there would be no use in ordering more Mk.1 jets; instead Mk.2 jets of FoC standard will be ordered.

    What were the glitches with Hawk and have they been removed? Why has the IAF sought different advanced trainers rather than acquire more Hawks?

    There were some problems initially with the induction of the Hawk. Most of these problems pertained to spares supply-chain and inventory management. Few problems like these are expected during the initial induction of a new weapon system of this scale. However, the management and in-country representatives of BAE Systems, along with HAL have been able to sort out the issues and get on to a common platform. Adequate amounts of spares and consumables have been put in place, to enhance availability and serviceability of the Hawk aircraft.
    Sir, why are you ordering ab-initio trainers in the speed class of HPT-16 Kiran, while foregoing side-by-side training on HPT-32 type trainers ?

    Also, why are you not inducting Hansa trainers for ab-initio training, and why don't you order IJT Sitara for intermediate training ?

    One more question : If you're not satisfied with the Hawk, why send them an RFP again ?

    What role does the IAF have in the fifth generation aircraft and the Multi-purpose Transport Aircraft? When do you expect the two to enter IAF service?

    IAF had formulated and issued Technical Requirements for the Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft (FGFA) in accordance with Long Term Perspective Plan. HAL and the Russian side are finalising the various aspects for co-design and production of the aircraft. Medium Transport Aircraft (MTA) shall be designed and manufactured by a Joint Venture Company formed between the HAL and Russian side. These aircraft are likely to enter the service in the beginning of our 13th plan period, i.e. after 2017.
    Sir, are you aware that India will not have a single screw on board the FGFA ? Even the twin-seat will be installed / designed by Sukhoi. Isn't the JV that you call it, actually a disguised licence production agreement ?

    Sir, do you have any plan or roadmap to end our perrenial dependence on imported hardware for this 77 year old, and 4th largest air-force ?

  8. #608
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    Russia will remain India's largest defence supplier for some time to come, with ongoing arms contracts and projects in the pipeline worth well over a whopping $15 billion.

    The relationship will only head further north since India has shown interest in acquiring more Russian military hardware and software. This, for instance, includes 50 more Sukhoi-30MKIs to add to 230 of these `air dominance' fighters already contracted for over $8.5 billion, as also an additional 29 MiG-29Ks for $1.12 billion after the first 16 of these maritime jets were bought for aircraft carrier Admiral Gorshkov.

    Then, of course, there are three crucial joint R&D projects. One, the Sukhoi T-50 PAK-FA fifth-generation fighter aircraft (FGFA), whose overall development costs are pegged by Russia to be around $8-10 billion.

    "During the October 14-15 meeting, Antony will emphasis India's interest in ensuring FGFA's development is completed by 2016 and IAF can begin inducting it by 2017,'' said an official.

    http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/i...ow/5107056.cms
    Anybody shed light on these figure$- surely that is too low for PAK-FA project R&D alone (?)
    Is that Indian Govt. contribution to the PAK-FA project as a whole including licensed production or just for development of the FGFA?

  9. #609
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    Interview: Chairman, Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd, Ashok Nayak

    FORCE October 2009
    www.forceindia.net

    ‘India Will Be an Equal Partner in All Aspects of the FGFA’
    Chairman, Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd, Ashok Nayak

    What preparations have you done at HAL regarding the M-MRCA, including talks with competitor companies for absorption of offsets, creation of new or more infrastructures, and hiring of manpower?

    It is too early to talk about all this. As you know, the MRCA has six contenders and currently the field evaluation trials are going on. HAL is participating in this to evaluate the maintenance aspects. Regarding the offsets, a clearer picture will emerge after the selection of the aircraft. Once that happens, HAL will initiate talks with the selected company to align its infrastructure to meet the offsets obligation. We have a fairly dedicated export-oriented unit for aerospace structures. We hope to increase this division to meet some of the offset obligations in respect of structures. Depending upon what further needs to be done in this particular area, we will increase the infrastructure.

    You mentioned that HAL is looking at the maintenance aspects during the MRCA flight evaluation trials. What is meant by this?

    Almost all the aircraft have flown a couple of sorties in Bangalore. HAL has already been looking at various maintenance aspects of these aircraft including what it involves and how easy or difficult it will be to maintain them. Now during the field trials, HAL is working with the IAF as a team to assess the maintenance of these aircraft further. While it will be the IAF that will maintain the selected aircraft in their inventory, HAL will also be assisting them in certain aspects.



    What is the status on the first prototype flight of LCH? Considering the LCH model was labelled at HAL stand at MAKS-2009 as an attack helicopter, will LCH compete for the IAF’s RFP for 22 attack helicopters?

    The first prototype of the LCH will fly by the end of this year. Work on the prototype is progressing well and I do not anticipate any delays. The LCH is a light helicopter and it is not in the category of the 22 attack helicopters that the IAF is seeking. However, the LCH will definitely be armed when it is offered to the IAF.

    Director General Sukhoi, Michail A. Pogosyan said at MAKS-2009 that the Russian fifth generation fighter aircraft (FGFA) prototype’s maiden flight will happen by end-2009 and that the basic version of the Indian and Russian FGFA is similar with software changes only. Is this correct? What does this mean for HAL in terms of sharing work, transfer of technology, intellectual property rights issues, and time-frame for the evolution of the Indian aircraft? He also mentioned that Indians could later look at a two-seat aircraft and a naval version.

    I would not like to comment on Mr Pogosyan’s statement and you may take it as the current status. The IAF technical requirements for the FGFA have just been finalised and they are being passed on to the Russians. These technical requirements will include what is needed for a single and a twin seat version and so on. After the technical requirements have been given to them, the technical aspects between the two sides will be discussed in detail. The Indian version obviously cannot be very different from the Russian version. Certain modifications according to the technical requirements will be incorporated in the Indian version and these have already been discussed in detail between HAL and IAF. This then, is the starting point. As you know, it takes a few years between the prototype flight and the acceptance of an aircraft, this time will be utilised between Russia and India to work closely on the Indian version. I can say that metaphorically speaking, India has taken its first step for the fifth generation aircraft. I would also like to dispel a prevalent notion that while India will pay 50 per cent of the money, it may just get about 10 per cent of the work-share. This will not happen. India will be an equal partner in all aspects in the FGFA.

    What is the progress on the Multi-role Transport Aircraft (MTA) with Russia?

    An amendment to the Inter-Government Agreement (IGA) on the MTA has been sent to the Russians. Once we get their signature on this amendment, work on MTA will start. According to the amendment, while India and Russia are equal partners, on the Russian side the partnership will be represented jointly by the United Aircraft Corporation (UAC) and Rosoboronexport. Meanwhile, various agreements and memorandums have already been vetted by both sides and once the amendment to IGA is signed by the Russian side, further progress will begin. For your information, we are going to Russia in September for our regular bilateral meetings, where the MTA issue will also come up. I am hopeful that things will finally start moving in September on this matter.

    What other issues will be discussed when you go to Russia in September?

    It will be all regular production issues, including the Su-30MKI.

    What is the status on freezing the LUH design? How closely is HAL interacting with the IAF/Army on this project and how different are the specifications from the LUH that is the combine IAF/Army requirement to be procured from abroad?

    The LUH being procured from outside and the one to be designed and produced at HAL are based on the same technical specifications of the IAF and the army. HAL told them that we will design the machine. However, they are also looking for a similar machine from outside. I would look at it positively. I think that they want to give an equal opportunity to the Indian as well as outside manufacturers. The first prototype of the LUH is expected to fly in 2012. The planned delivery schedule of the LUH is five years after February 2009. This means by 2014.

    What is the status of the rotary UAV for the navy being developed jointly with IAI by HAL? There was a proposal to make one each UAV at HAL and IAI. What has happened to that?

    The rotary UAV programme is being developed to Indian Navy’s specifications. They are in the process of obtaining sanction for the development and procurement of rotary UAVs. Once the sanction is obtained, HAL has already given them a roadmap of how things will progress. The platform for this UAV will be Chetak helicopter and HAL will work with IAI Malat on this project. The IAI Malat will make the first UAV and the remaining seven out of an expected order of eight from the navy will be made by HAL.

    Considering that UAVs of different categories will be in much demand in the future, what are HAL plans for collaborations in different categories with outside companies?

    As you know, HAL has so far built the Lakshya UAV for the army. Now HAL has jointly bid with BEL on the Medium Altitude Long Endurance (MALE) UAV with the ADE. If we win this bid we will build this UAV.

    It is understood that HAL will be making simulators with Elbit of Israel. Is this correct?

    HAL has formed a joint venture with Elbit, called Halbit. It is not a subsidiary of HAL but an independent company. This company will make the simulators for the IJT and the Mirage aircraft. It will also be involved in certain avionics. HAL, today, has nine such JVs. The JV with BAe Systems is called BAeHAL and it will provide software-based business solution for both the defence and the civil sector. HAL-Samtel JV is making multi-functional displays for aircraft manufactured at HAL. Subsequently, it may also work on helmet-mounted displays. The Hal-Snecma JV manufactures aero-engine components for civil aircraft. The HAL-TATA Technology JV works in the area of airframe design and manufacture. The HAL-Infotech JV focuses on aero-engines and technical publications. While the HAL-CAE JV called HATSOFF (Helicopter Academy to Train by Simulation of Flying) is building a helicopter training academy in Bangalore, the HAL-Edgewood JV is working on avionics design and development. These JVs will eventually also absorb part of the MMRCA offsets. While the outside companies seek extra business opportunities in India through these JVs, we seek knowledge. As you are aware, unlike the West, we use our aircraft for 30-35 years. Through these JVs, we will now have the knowledge, in-house expertise and facilities to look after the aircraft, which in the long term will benefit the nation.

    What is the progress on EASA and FAA certification for Dhruv? Which Dhruv version, civil or military, has more export potential?

    The EASA certification has been launched. It has eight phases, of which three phases have been completed and we hope to finish all the requirements by March 2012. The FAA is a different thing and will require a bilateral arrangement between the Director General Civil Aviation (DGCA) and the FAA. The acquisition of EASA certification will certainly help in Dhruv exports. Both Dhruv versions have good export potential. There are customers that want to use Dhruv in both roles. Similarly, there are customers that are happy with a bilateral certification, while some need a wider certification.

    What is the status of IJT? How much is HAL involved with ADA for selection and development of Mk-II engine for the LCA? Has HAL set up the production facility for LCA Mk-I for which a limited (20 aircraft) order has been placed by the IAF?

    It is in a fairly advanced stage of testing. It uses the Russian AL-55I engine. We have an order for limited series production of 12 aircraft. The first aircraft is expected to come out in October 2009 and we hope to finish the limited series production by March 2011. We have done negotiations with the IAF for an order of 73 IJTs. As you know, the whole process of sanctions will take some time and then we expect this order to come.

    What do you think about the future of the LCA?

    The IAF has already ordered 20 LCA MkI aircraft and they are also talking of an order of a few trainers of the same class to keep the line going. ADA has also issued an RFP for the new engine. This, of course, will mean design modifications on the aircraft, which will be a fairly major work.

    What do you think about the EADS contract for the LCA?

    The EADS will be working as a consultancy agency on certain aspects of LCA MkI. Whatever suggestions EADS gives will also have to be incorporated in LCA MkII.

    How well is HAL geared up for the Jaguar engine upgrade? Has HAL entered into talks with Honeywell and Rolls Royce whose engines are competing for the upgrade?

    HAL has worked as part of the Jet Engine Evaluation Team that has given its recommendations to the Air Headquarters. It is now for the IAF to take a call on what it wants to do.

    You may be aware that the DARIN (Display Attack Ranging Inertial Navigation) III upgrade on Jaguar is presently going on. After the successful DARIN II upgrade, DARIN III upgrade which involves avionics will be done on 61 aircraft.

    In your last meeting with FORCE (May 2009), you spoke about the need for collaboration with more Indian companies and research institutes to meet the growing market challenges. What is the progress on this issue?

    HAL is working closely with many Indian companies. While we have not created clusters around Hyderabad, Bangalore and Chennai, there are a lot of companies that are coming to Bangalore to work with us. The entire Su-30MKI empennage (tail portion of an aircraft) is being done in Bangalore. I think this is a very promising beginning of long-term and deep partnership with the Indian private sector.

    Courtesy: FORCE
    "A map does you no good if you don't know where you are"

  10. #610
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    Thumbs up Interview: General Manager, Aircraft Manufacturing Division, Hindustan Aeronautics

    FORCE October 2009
    www.forceindia.net

    ‘Outsourcing is a Reasonably New Area for Us’
    General Manager, Aircraft Manufacturing Division, Hindustan Aeronautics Limited, Nasik, V. Balakrishnan

    Can you give us an overview of the Su-30MKI manufacturing process in Nasik?

    The contract for Su-30 was first signed in 1996 with Russia. Subsequently, there were talks about license production, which is when HAL came into the picture. HAL has been in dialogue with Russia since 1998. In 2000, the Inter-Government Agreement and general contract was signed. In December 2001, the bifurcation of responsibilities between the Indian and the Russian side took place, implying that both sides decided on the documents that would be given to us, which side would do how much tooling and testing and so on. HAL also decided on the minimum number of aircraft needed to be made by it to have a cost-effective production line. Various figures were discussed and till we finally agreed on an appropriate number. Consequently, in March 2002, HAL submitted its project report to the government.



    What is meant by establishing the Su-30MKI production line?

    Five HAL factories were nominated for the Su-30MKI production. In Nasik, we make the airframe structure and all electrical items and various assemblies made elsewhere are brought here for final integration of the aircraft.After this, flight-testing is done here before the aircraft is given to the customer. At the Koraput HAL plant, we make the AL-31FP engines for the aircraft. In Hyderabad, HAL makes the radar and radio equipment. In Lucknow, all systems are made, which includes mechanical and electrical instruments (looms), as well as pumps and oxygen systems. The Navigational and Attack Complex, Korwa, HAL makes all navigational systems, which includes optical laser systems. Hence, the Nasik factory with the strength of about 5,500 people does the design and manufacturing. In addition, there are about 30 Russian consultants. The Nasik HAL comprises three divisions: the Aircraft Manufacturing Division (AMD), the Aircraft Overhauling Division (AOD) and Aircraft Upgrades Research and Development Centre (AURDC).

    What is meant by designing Su-30MKI here?

    As the aircraft is the licensed-production, we have to maintain the documentation including designs, drawing and specifications. Liaison work is also important as both sides have to agree on the exact specification of parts which are being made here.

    Does the raw material for Su-30MKI come from Russia?

    Yes, the kits come from Russia which includes 100 per cent raw material, casing and forgings, standard parts and bought-out ready material like bearings, connectors, switches, circuit-breakers and so on. These parts, though small are not economical enough to be made here. While in the earlier Russian aircraft, we were making nuts and bolts here, in the case of Su-30MKI, the Russians insisted that everything come from there, including readymade articles for which license has not been transferred. These include undercarriage and the ejection seats. This decision is based on cost-effective analysis and time frames. But there are still nearly 40,000 parts like brackets, panels and major structural frames, spars, longerons, wings, control surfaces and fins that are made here.

    Where exactly are the Russians assisting in the project?

    They come in at various stages of the project. For example, they help during the testing of the fuel pumps, radars and the final flight testing. Su-30MKI has seven profiles for system testing where the Russians are involved intimately. Painting of the aircraft done at the flight hangar is another critical area. They are also there during the final assembly of the aircraft as well in the earlier stages when sub-assemblies are manufactured. In short, the Russians are there in a supervisory capacity at each stage, for transfer of technology. This is part of the license agreement and is called ‘defence of their technology processes’. This means that it is their responsibility to ensure that all the licensed items that they have transferred to us can be produced here to the required specifications.

    Does the radar come directly from Russia?

    No, initially N011 radar of Su-30MKI used to come from Russia, but once the license was transferred to HAL, it is now being manufactured in Hyderabad. Like the aircraft, the manufacture of the radar is also a phased process.

    Can you explain the phases in which the aircraft is being manufactured?

    The whole process of the aircraft manufacture is in four phases. In phase I (2004-2005) the aircraft was manufactured and tested in Russia before being flown to India. It was again tested here in Nasik and then painted before the aircraft was handed over to the Indian Air Force. In phase II (2005-2006) 100 per cent of the kits came from Russia. In Nasik AMD, it meant the kits for the entire fuselage, wings and the pipelines. Assembling the kits here took nine months before the aircraft rolled out of the production line. Phase III of the process involved making all items from raw materials except the fuselage. The materials manufactured here included the empennage, canards, wings and the air intake. These were manufactured under Russian supervision and the process took 30 months. The fuselage that came from Russia was in three parts: F1, F2 and F3 or the front, centre and rear fuselage. These parts were assembled here. Phase IV, which has just begun, will take a total of 36 months and will involve making the entire fuselage from the Russian supplied raw material. Indian manufacturers for raw material, like Midhani, can make some of the raw material to required specifications. Present contract for the Su-30MKI aircraft mentions raw material to be delivered by Russia and we will stick to the license agreement terms. Indigenous material will be used for making spares.

    As the phases become time-consuming, will this affect the aircraft production rate?

    No, this will not happen. For example, phase III which we entered in March this year was actually started in 2006. We are certain to meet our commitment of giving 140 aircraft to the customer by March 2015.

    What are the technical highpoints of Su-30MKI?

    Su-30MKI is a 4.5 generation aircraft with a twin engine and twin cockpit. This ensures that redundancy is taken care of. It has 12 weapon stations, which is a large number. It has a state of art engine with thrust vectoring capability. This makes the aircraft highly unstable with immense manoeuvre-capabilities. It has a high fuel-carrying capability and can undertake air to air refuelling. Its fuel tank design is special and is self-sealing. This means that if a bullet hits the wing, the fuel will come out of the tank slowly, instead of gushing out as is the case in other aircraft. The aircraft engine has single crystal blades which are capable of withstanding very high temperatures. Considering that the aircraft is huge and has to operate in hot conditions, and its twin engines have the 11,500kg thrust each, the single crystal blades ensure that the thrust remains optimum. The Russians have given this technology to us for the first time. Another thing about the aircraft is the extensive use of titanium for machining, forming, welding and chemical milling. Titanium is both light and strong as compared with aluminium used in the earlier Russian aircraft. Absorption of the Titanium technology is a complex process. Most of the work on titanium is done at high temperature to stabilise the metal and this process is called isothermal forming. There is a need for special tools and jigs for the cutting, welding and machining of titanium.

    Another unique feature of this aircraft manufacture is its rotables. It has sturdy locks, made of titanium, which are very complex. For example, when the undercarriage of the aircraft comes down, it is held firmly by down-locks which are manufactured here. Similarly, there are certain hydro-pneumatic valves which are complicated and are made here. The spars (members that hold heavy loads like wings) in this aircraft are huge and are complex structures to make.
    A very interesting aspect of this aircraft-building is that nearly 25 per cent of the aircraft components have been outsourced by us. About 10,000 parts of the aircraft are being made by Indian companies and are being supplied to HAL Nasik. We give them the raw material and the designs, after which we inspect their products before accepting them. In a matter of speaking, we ensure quality control of the outsourced components. This helps us to concentrate on the assembly aspect of the parts here at AMD, which is a very critical process. As mentioned earlier, both we and the Russians, ensure the quality control of the manufacturing here.

    Considering that the aircraft uses a lot of titanium, does this affect its stealth capabilities?

    Stealth is a different issue altogether. This involves two things. First, the rays that come to the aircraft should get deflected so as not to send the signal back to the source. This is achieved by the geometry of the aircraft which ensures maximum deflection and hence stealth. The other issue is about the aircraft radar itself that should not emit unnecessary signals. Both these issues have been taken care of adequately in this aircraft.

    What is the reason that in a given time frame, more aircraft can be made in Russia than at HAL?

    This depends upon the number of machinery, jigs and fixtures that one has. The other aspect is about technology absorption. Considering that the Russians have been making aircraft of various kinds for so many years, their infrastructure, facilities and technology absorption processes are better than what can be achieved at HAL. For example, if the Russians are making about 1,400 aircraft and HAL is to make much lesser number in 100s, the disparity in infrastructure between the two places will be glaring. Moreover, given their experience, they have more partners to outsource work. As much as 70 per cent of their aircraft components would be outsourced in comparison to about 25 per cent that HAL is doing for the Su-30MKI. Earlier, HAL used to make 100 per cent components for the MiGs. Thus, outsourcing is a reasonably new area for us.

    Which other companies are contributing components to Su-30MKI?

    Thales of France has given the multi-functional display and stand-by instruments like the visual omni-range instrument landing system. The GPS in the aircraft comes from Israel. The radar warning receiver has been designed by DARE in Bangalore and is being produced by BEL. These systems are being sent to Korwa HAL from where we receive them.
    "A map does you no good if you don't know where you are"

  11. #611
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    What do you think about the future of the LCA?

    The IAF has already ordered 20 LCA MkI aircraft and they are also talking of an order of a few trainers of the same class to keep the line going. ADA has also issued an RFP for the new engine. This, of course, will mean design modifications on the aircraft, which will be a fairly major work.
    Fingers crossed if the LCA MKII involves major redisgn.

  12. #612
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    Quote Originally Posted by Austin View Post
    FORCE October 2009
    www.forceindia.net

    Chairman, Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd, Ashok Nayak

    What preparations have you done at HAL regarding the M-MRCA, including talks with competitor companies for absorption of offsets, creation of new or more infrastructures, and hiring of manpower?

    It is too early to talk about all this. As you know, the MRCA has six contenders and currently the field evaluation trials are going on. HAL is participating in this to evaluate the maintenance aspects. Regarding the offsets, a clearer picture will emerge after the selection of the aircraft. Once that happens, HAL will initiate talks with the selected company to align its infrastructure to meet the offsets obligation. We have a fairly dedicated export-oriented unit for aerospace structures. We hope to increase this division to meet some of the offset obligations in respect of structures. Depending upon what further needs to be done in this particular area, we will increase the infrastructure.
    What he really meant :- You see, in our 70 years of existence, we at HAL have had a State-gifted monopoly in the supply and manufacture of aircraft. So, why should we be bothered to design anything on our own ? We just buy the licence and manufacture, because we are the unchallenged middlemen between the IAF and foreign companies. That's why we contributed in the abject neglect of Tejas and lobbied very hard for this MRCA.

    Compare us not with Embraer and Boeing, but with PAC Kamra. We are the No. 1 licence producer and copier in Asia !

    Also, when we are very happy making doors for Boeing, why should we make our own airliners ? Let there be an HAL in every Boeing and Airbus than just HAL designed jets flying.

    Director General Sukhoi, Michail A. Pogosyan said at MAKS-2009 that the Russian fifth generation fighter aircraft (FGFA) prototype’s maiden flight will happen by end-2009 and that the basic version of the Indian and Russian FGFA is similar with software changes only. Is this correct? What does this mean for HAL in terms of sharing work, transfer of technology, intellectual property rights issues, and time-frame for the evolution of the Indian aircraft? He also mentioned that Indians could later look at a two-seat aircraft and a naval version.

    I would not like to comment on Mr Pogosyan’s statement and you may take it as the current status.
    What he really meant :- I told Pogosyan to keep quite, but ... !

    The Indian version obviously cannot be very different from the Russian version.
    Real meaning :- HAL's marketing director Fakhruddin was lying when he said that FGFA would be very different from Russia's PAK-FA.

    Certain modifications according to the technical requirements will be incorporated in the Indian version and these have already been discussed in detail between HAL and IAF. This then, is the starting point. As you know, it takes a few years between the prototype flight and the acceptance of an aircraft, this time will be utilised between Russia and India to work closely on the Indian version.
    Real meaning :- Only the IAF has confided to HAL in what it wants in the FGFA. But the Russians have finalized and frozen the design. I don't know with what face should I request them to incorporate IAF's desires. It's been 3 years since HAL has been haggling with Sukhoi....but

    I would also like to dispel a prevalent notion that while India will pay 50 per cent of the money, it may just get about 10 per cent of the work-share. This will not happen.
    Real meaning : I'd like to dispel the myth that India will share even 10% of the technological work. It's more like 0.10 %.

    You see, I've always admired those shiekhs of Saudi Arabia around whom westerners prance around for money. This was my moment. I'm the rich guy and I love to see those cash-starved Russians ask me for money.

    What is the progress on the Multi-role Transport Aircraft (MTA) with Russia?

    An amendment to the Inter-Government Agreement (IGA) on the MTA has been sent to the Russians. Once we get their signature on this amendment, work on MTA will start. According to the amendment, while India and Russia are equal partners, on the Russian side the partnership will be represented jointly by the United Aircraft Corporation (UAC) and Rosoboronexport. Meanwhile, various agreements and memorandums have already been vetted by both sides and once the amendment to IGA is signed by the Russian side, further progress will begin. For your information, we are going to Russia in September for our regular bilateral meetings, where the MTA issue will also come up. I am hopeful that things will finally start moving in September on this matter.
    Real meaning : What did you say ? NAL ? Indigenous 90-seater RTA ? I only know HAL and MTA, which we will develop in a 50% joint venture, equal collaborative partnership in tandem with Russia. I don't know any local satraps like NAL, PAL .....

    HAL will work with IAI Malat on this project. The IAI Malat will make the first UAV and the remaining seven out of an expected order of eight from the navy will be made by HAL.
    Real meaning : First IAI Malat will make the first UAV, and then we will promptly copy. Copying is also an art. I'm proud to announce that we've mastered it.

    What do you think about the future of the LCA?

    The IAF has already ordered 20 LCA MkI aircraft and they are also talking of an order of a few trainers of the same class to keep the line going. ADA has also issued an RFP for the new engine. This, of course, will mean design modifications on the aircraft, which will be a fairly major work.
    Real meaning : LCA is an ADA project simply thrust on the already highly JV'ed shoulders of HAL. I told IAF can't we contact China to jointly manufacture their J-10 in a 50-50 venture ? Or the Koreans ? How about the Japanese Misubishi fighters ?
    Last edited by Abhimanyu; 10th October 2009 at 16:01.

  13. #613
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    Compare us not with Embraer and Boeing, but with PAC Kamra. We are the No. 1 licence producer and copier in Asia !
    Several Chinese firms will not agree with you on that.

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    ...Because you're worth it...

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  15. #615
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    I think the Russians do not want another J11. So what exactly is TOT if raw material is produced in Russia. Engines, ejection seat comes from Russia. Same goes for components like IRST or, canopy etc. I think that by having Russians control over every proces it keeps India out of growing mode. I would not go for outsourcing cause India has the manpower, engineering power and finance (let us forget the numbers of planes) to do it. And these kind of full inhouse (yet sometimes inefficient) actions are contributing towards a better aviation industry.

    Quote Originally Posted by Austin View Post
    FORCE October 2009
    www.forceindia.net

    ‘Outsourcing is a Reasonably New Area for Us’
    General Manager, Aircraft Manufacturing Division, Hindustan Aeronautics Limited, Nasik, V. Balakrishnan

    Can you give us an overview of the Su-30MKI manufacturing process in Nasik?

    The contract for Su-30 was first signed in 1996 with Russia. Subsequently, there were talks about license production, which is when HAL came into the picture. HAL has been in dialogue with Russia since 1998. In 2000, the Inter-Government Agreement and general contract was signed. In December 2001, the bifurcation of responsibilities between the Indian and the Russian side took place, implying that both sides decided on the documents that would be given to us, which side would do how much tooling and testing and so on. HAL also decided on the minimum number of aircraft needed to be made by it to have a cost-effective production line. Various figures were discussed and till we finally agreed on an appropriate number. Consequently, in March 2002, HAL submitted its project report to the government.



    What is meant by establishing the Su-30MKI production line?

    Five HAL factories were nominated for the Su-30MKI production. In Nasik, we make the airframe structure and all electrical items and various assemblies made elsewhere are brought here for final integration of the aircraft.After this, flight-testing is done here before the aircraft is given to the customer. At the Koraput HAL plant, we make the AL-31FP engines for the aircraft. In Hyderabad, HAL makes the radar and radio equipment. In Lucknow, all systems are made, which includes mechanical and electrical instruments (looms), as well as pumps and oxygen systems. The Navigational and Attack Complex, Korwa, HAL makes all navigational systems, which includes optical laser systems. Hence, the Nasik factory with the strength of about 5,500 people does the design and manufacturing. In addition, there are about 30 Russian consultants. The Nasik HAL comprises three divisions: the Aircraft Manufacturing Division (AMD), the Aircraft Overhauling Division (AOD) and Aircraft Upgrades Research and Development Centre (AURDC).

    What is meant by designing Su-30MKI here?

    As the aircraft is the licensed-production, we have to maintain the documentation including designs, drawing and specifications. Liaison work is also important as both sides have to agree on the exact specification of parts which are being made here.

    Does the raw material for Su-30MKI come from Russia?

    Yes, the kits come from Russia which includes 100 per cent raw material, casing and forgings, standard parts and bought-out ready material like bearings, connectors, switches, circuit-breakers and so on. These parts, though small are not economical enough to be made here. While in the earlier Russian aircraft, we were making nuts and bolts here, in the case of Su-30MKI, the Russians insisted that everything come from there, including readymade articles for which license has not been transferred. These include undercarriage and the ejection seats. This decision is based on cost-effective analysis and time frames. But there are still nearly 40,000 parts like brackets, panels and major structural frames, spars, longerons, wings, control surfaces and fins that are made here.

    Where exactly are the Russians assisting in the project?

    They come in at various stages of the project. For example, they help during the testing of the fuel pumps, radars and the final flight testing. Su-30MKI has seven profiles for system testing where the Russians are involved intimately. Painting of the aircraft done at the flight hangar is another critical area. They are also there during the final assembly of the aircraft as well in the earlier stages when sub-assemblies are manufactured. In short, the Russians are there in a supervisory capacity at each stage, for transfer of technology. This is part of the license agreement and is called ‘defence of their technology processes’. This means that it is their responsibility to ensure that all the licensed items that they have transferred to us can be produced here to the required specifications.

    Does the radar come directly from Russia?

    No, initially N011 radar of Su-30MKI used to come from Russia, but once the license was transferred to HAL, it is now being manufactured in Hyderabad. Like the aircraft, the manufacture of the radar is also a phased process.

    Can you explain the phases in which the aircraft is being manufactured?

    The whole process of the aircraft manufacture is in four phases. In phase I (2004-2005) the aircraft was manufactured and tested in Russia before being flown to India. It was again tested here in Nasik and then painted before the aircraft was handed over to the Indian Air Force. In phase II (2005-2006) 100 per cent of the kits came from Russia. In Nasik AMD, it meant the kits for the entire fuselage, wings and the pipelines. Assembling the kits here took nine months before the aircraft rolled out of the production line. Phase III of the process involved making all items from raw materials except the fuselage. The materials manufactured here included the empennage, canards, wings and the air intake. These were manufactured under Russian supervision and the process took 30 months. The fuselage that came from Russia was in three parts: F1, F2 and F3 or the front, centre and rear fuselage. These parts were assembled here. Phase IV, which has just begun, will take a total of 36 months and will involve making the entire fuselage from the Russian supplied raw material. Indian manufacturers for raw material, like Midhani, can make some of the raw material to required specifications. Present contract for the Su-30MKI aircraft mentions raw material to be delivered by Russia and we will stick to the license agreement terms. Indigenous material will be used for making spares.

    As the phases become time-consuming, will this affect the aircraft production rate?

    No, this will not happen. For example, phase III which we entered in March this year was actually started in 2006. We are certain to meet our commitment of giving 140 aircraft to the customer by March 2015.

    What are the technical highpoints of Su-30MKI?

    Su-30MKI is a 4.5 generation aircraft with a twin engine and twin cockpit. This ensures that redundancy is taken care of. It has 12 weapon stations, which is a large number. It has a state of art engine with thrust vectoring capability. This makes the aircraft highly unstable with immense manoeuvre-capabilities. It has a high fuel-carrying capability and can undertake air to air refuelling. Its fuel tank design is special and is self-sealing. This means that if a bullet hits the wing, the fuel will come out of the tank slowly, instead of gushing out as is the case in other aircraft. The aircraft engine has single crystal blades which are capable of withstanding very high temperatures. Considering that the aircraft is huge and has to operate in hot conditions, and its twin engines have the 11,500kg thrust each, the single crystal blades ensure that the thrust remains optimum. The Russians have given this technology to us for the first time. Another thing about the aircraft is the extensive use of titanium for machining, forming, welding and chemical milling. Titanium is both light and strong as compared with aluminium used in the earlier Russian aircraft. Absorption of the Titanium technology is a complex process. Most of the work on titanium is done at high temperature to stabilise the metal and this process is called isothermal forming. There is a need for special tools and jigs for the cutting, welding and machining of titanium.

    Another unique feature of this aircraft manufacture is its rotables. It has sturdy locks, made of titanium, which are very complex. For example, when the undercarriage of the aircraft comes down, it is held firmly by down-locks which are manufactured here. Similarly, there are certain hydro-pneumatic valves which are complicated and are made here. The spars (members that hold heavy loads like wings) in this aircraft are huge and are complex structures to make.
    A very interesting aspect of this aircraft-building is that nearly 25 per cent of the aircraft components have been outsourced by us. About 10,000 parts of the aircraft are being made by Indian companies and are being supplied to HAL Nasik. We give them the raw material and the designs, after which we inspect their products before accepting them. In a matter of speaking, we ensure quality control of the outsourced components. This helps us to concentrate on the assembly aspect of the parts here at AMD, which is a very critical process. As mentioned earlier, both we and the Russians, ensure the quality control of the manufacturing here.

    Considering that the aircraft uses a lot of titanium, does this affect its stealth capabilities?

    Stealth is a different issue altogether. This involves two things. First, the rays that come to the aircraft should get deflected so as not to send the signal back to the source. This is achieved by the geometry of the aircraft which ensures maximum deflection and hence stealth. The other issue is about the aircraft radar itself that should not emit unnecessary signals. Both these issues have been taken care of adequately in this aircraft.

    What is the reason that in a given time frame, more aircraft can be made in Russia than at HAL?

    This depends upon the number of machinery, jigs and fixtures that one has. The other aspect is about technology absorption. Considering that the Russians have been making aircraft of various kinds for so many years, their infrastructure, facilities and technology absorption processes are better than what can be achieved at HAL. For example, if the Russians are making about 1,400 aircraft and HAL is to make much lesser number in 100s, the disparity in infrastructure between the two places will be glaring. Moreover, given their experience, they have more partners to outsource work. As much as 70 per cent of their aircraft components would be outsourced in comparison to about 25 per cent that HAL is doing for the Su-30MKI. Earlier, HAL used to make 100 per cent components for the MiGs. Thus, outsourcing is a reasonably new area for us.

    Which other companies are contributing components to Su-30MKI?

    Thales of France has given the multi-functional display and stand-by instruments like the visual omni-range instrument landing system. The GPS in the aircraft comes from Israel. The radar warning receiver has been designed by DARE in Bangalore and is being produced by BEL. These systems are being sent to Korwa HAL from where we receive them.

  16. #616
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    Quote Originally Posted by Otaku View Post
    ...Because you're worth it...

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    No mistake - that is one beautiful bird even in primer!

    USS.

  17. #617
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    Quote Originally Posted by Insig View Post
    I think the Russians do not want another J11. So what exactly is TOT if raw material is produced in Russia. Engines, ejection seat comes from Russia. Same goes for components like IRST or, canopy etc. I think that by having Russians control over every proces it keeps India out of growing mode. I would not go for outsourcing cause India has the manpower, engineering power and finance (let us forget the numbers of planes) to do it. And these kind of full inhouse (yet sometimes inefficient) actions are contributing towards a better aviation industry.
    The raw material is coming only for Phases 1-3, Phase 4 involves raw materials both from India & Russia, and thereafter spares are with Indian raw material.

    What you need to understand is a full 3 years were shaved from the MKI program as IAF wanted the planes fast. Instead of 2017-18, it became 2015. The Russians pointed out this reduced timeline could only be met if things were sped up by moving a portion of aircraft from Phase 4 to Phases 1-3 and getting raw material from Russia for the first 3 phases in particular.

    TOT is at two levels, manufacturing the plane, and making the components, we are getting both. But our aviation industry development at the end of the day is tied more to the LCA, ALH etc than just the MKI.

    I have had opportunity to discuss this in detail, and I believe the TOT is going to be a big help for us in something overlooked by 99% of public commentaries, namely logistics and operational flying costs + reduce dependency on far flung OEMs.

    Thats the main thing with TOT. People confuse this with having the ability to become Sukhoi ourselves, thats not going to happen - thats only via the LCA, ALH, LUH, MRTA etc both our own stuff + JVs.

  18. #618
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    Quote Originally Posted by Otaku View Post
    ...Because you're worth it...

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    Great ****!
    When was this Pic taken Otaku?
    It sure looks like those engine on the Flanker in primer are 117-S stuff!

    If we compair these two pics..


    Thanks
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    Last edited by haavarla; 10th October 2009 at 21:51.

  19. #619
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    I was going to ask about the ODL datalink. According to the links below, the contract has been awarded to IAI and should enter service by 2012.

    IAI has experience with using radios for datalinks and the Su-30MKI already has a glass cockpit.

    http://www.domain-b.com/defence/air_..._contract.html
    http://indiadefenceonline.com/281/in...-link-project/

    Possibly based on or developments of?:
    http://www.iai.co.il/33786-38692-en/ELTA.aspx
    http://www.iai.co.il/33787-29421-en/ELTA.aspx


    I'm guessing its similar to MIDS/Link 16 which will display similar to radar display. Its been confirmed for A-50, Su-30MKI and ground stations, and Im guessing both MiG-29/Mirage 2000 updates. Surely its planned to display air, ground and sea targets? It would mean a software upgrade to integrate the datalink and displays, but the aircraft will be receiving updates all through its life.

    Cutting down on standard voice communications is a good think, it allows the A-50 to direct more interceptors at one time, communications are quicker and more secure from jamming. The aircraft will be more survivable as threat warnings will not be drowned out in many voice calls. It will also interceptors to make silent intercepts in some cases - ODL brings the aircraft close to the target, then the IRST takes over.

    Some datalinks can pass imagery - maybe the SU-30MKI can pass EL/M-2060P SAR shots and EO images also?

    Link 16 is used by Army, Navy and Air Forces - will ODL be used by the Indian Navy?

  20. #620
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    Peter G, Quite right.

    ODL is the wireless datalink component for the IAF tactical fighter fleet (might be extended to other platforms as well) and AEW&C platforms.
    The hardware is being supplied by IAI with software development partly done inhouse by the IAF/developers for end use customization/securitys sake.

    So it will be standardized on all fighter platforms, especially airsuperiority etc ones first. The MiG-29s and Su-30s already have their datalink systems, the former an older one which will probably be removed at the upgrade, whereas the Su-30 MKIs have the Polyot K-DIAE datalink.

    Bandwidth wise, the ODL is to offer respectable performance and can definitely share images, but bandwidth drops as a function of distance as with most systems of that nature.

    The Indian Navy has its own separate datalink, its called Link-II. You can see details on the www.bel-india.com website. The Indian Navy uses Link-II to link Ka-31s, surveillance aircraft and its ships together. But the fighters such as the Sea Harrier recently received a separate IAI datalink to network them together.

    The Navy communications network will be integrated with the AF's through earmarked gateways.

  21. #621
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    IAF must have safeguards in place first, says Antony
    Special Correspondent

    NEW DELHI: Defence Minister A.K. Antony said the Indian Air Force will have to put in place safeguards and operational details before it gets the go-ahead from the government to fire in self-defence at naxalites.

    “After carefully preparing safeguards and operational details for self-defence, we will give operational clearance. The IAF will be informed when we give permission,” the Minister said on the sidelines of an international flight safety conference here.

    The Minister said the government did not want to use the IAF for combat operation and that there was no proposal to deploy armed forces in anti-naxalite operations.

    The government, he asserted, was clear that internal security remained the primary responsibility of the State governments and the para-military and the Centre would extend them required assistance.

  22. #622
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    Indian Air Force confident of combat capabilities: ACM Naik

    HINDON: If you thought IAF despite being one-third the strength of the Chinese air force could not hold its own, cast aside any such doubts. Air
    Chief Marshal P V Naik says IAF is quite confident of its combat capabilities.

    " Yeh chhota mota, chunnu munnu air force nahi hai. Jitna bhi strength hain abhi, kafi hai. Lekhin isse zyada hona chaiye (This is not a rag-tag air force. The strength we have now is enough. But it should grow in the future),'' said ACM Naik, on the sidelines of the IAF Day parade and flypast here on Thursday.

    The IAF chief said though the force's fighter squadron strength was currently down to 32-33 (despite having an authorised strength of 39.5 squadrons), it would gradually increase and attain the desired strength by 2022.

    As earlier reported by TOI, with both China and Pakistan bolstering their air combat fleets, IAF now wants another 50 Sukhoi-30MKI multi-role "air dominance'' fighters to cater for any contingency on both the eastern and western fronts.

    These 50 new Sukhois will in addition to the 230 of these twin-seater fighters already contracted from Russia in three deals worth upwards of $8.5 billion. IAF has already inducted 105 of the 230 Sukhois till now.

    In its quest to emerge as a "strategic aerospace force'', IAF has embarked on a major modernisation drive, which ranges from Israeli AWACS (airborne warning and control systems) and aerostat radars to American C-130J `Super Hercules' heavy-lift aircraft and Russian Mi-17-1V helicopters, as also additional mid-air refuellers, quick-reaction surface-to-air missile systems and the like.

  23. #623
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    I do not think that more and more make IAF better. It is not that big yet. It has to remove the outdated planes and get better trainer aircraft. The next decade will be induction time. A long learning curve cause whatever they buy as MRCA, it will need time to get it and to master it.

    About being something to be taken serious... Well, There are three big players in that area and all three have nukes and decent weapons. There is not much to achieve anymore. India can buy 1000 MKI's and still stay the same. I wonder how they will keep them in the air cause getting Russian planes in one... Maintenance is two.

  24. #624
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    Quote Originally Posted by Insig View Post
    I do not think that more and more make IAF better. It is not that big yet. It has to remove the outdated planes and get better trainer aircraft. The next decade will be induction time. A long learning curve cause whatever they buy as MRCA, it will need time to get it and to master it.

    About being something to be taken serious... Well, There are three big players in that area and all three have nukes and decent weapons. There is not much to achieve anymore. India can buy 1000 MKI's and still stay the same. I wonder how they will keep them in the air cause getting Russian planes in one... Maintenance is two.
    All wars do not turn Nuclear and India will need to keep its qualitative edge over the PLAF and PAF in the future as well. The number of squadrons will also help IAF guard India's strategic interests. Sukhois are going to be stationed in the Andamans and may be in future in the Maldives.

    It won't take long for India to master MRCA as we already operate 4.5 generation fighters.

  25. #625
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    Quote Originally Posted by ante_climax View Post
    All wars do not turn Nuclear and India will need to keep its qualitative edge over the PLAF and PAF in the future as well. The number of squadrons will also help IAF guard India's strategic interests. Sukhois are going to be stationed in the Andamans and may be in future in the Maldives.

    It won't take long for India to master MRCA as we already operate 4.5 generation fighters.
    I love your positive attitude but to me a bit unrealistic.... Even conventional there is no way India can beat countries like China and Pakistan. Back then it had overwhelming powers and numbers but it did not eliminate countries. I doubt it will happen now the entire region in nuclear. At the moment India's greatest fear is from the inside. Maoist rebels pose threat. According to your respected mr Singh it is the greatest problem at the moment. But there are many challenges besides that. The Kashmir area is filled with troubles. China border is a unsettled area. Tamil problem is not settled. And conventional the Indian power is at development and needs time to become better.

    India is still license producing arms and needs to send major parts to Russia to overhaul... There is a whole new world if you talk about MRCA. You do not have a can of people that can do it all. We havfe heard about numerous problems in maintenance of Mig21. Assembly of Jaguars. I do not think that cleaning up the planes is same as mastering them. Otherwise you would not have that many problems with making LCA. There is no decent developed aviation industry that can handle those problems. You can list up hundreds of factories or plans but the end result is that there is no plane flying that meets the standards of today.

    India set to discuss overhaul of Su-30 fighter jets with Russia

    NEW DELHI, October 9 (RIA Novosti) - India will discuss the modernization of the Russian-made Su-30MKI aircraft in service with its air force during an upcoming military-technical cooperation meeting in Moscow, the country's Defense Ministry said on Friday.

    The Indian Air Force currently has 105 Su-30MKIs mainly deployed at airbases close to the Chinese border.

    "The aircraft, contracted in 1996, are due for overhaul shortly and Russia has offered an upgrade of the aircraft with incorporation of the latest technologies during the major overhaul," the ministry said in a statement.

    The IAF originally ordered 50 Su-30MKI aircraft from Russia in 1996 and an additional 40 planes in 2007. India's Hindustani Aeronautics (HAL) was also contracted to build 140 aircraft in India between 2003 and 2017 under a licensed production agreement.

    India previously said it was satisfied with the performance of Russian Su-30MKI fighters and has recently expressed interest in buying another 50 Su-30MKIs.

    The 9th meeting of the Russia-India Inter-Governmental Commission on Military-Technical Cooperation will be held on October 14-15 in Moscow and will be chaired by Russian Defense Minister Anatoly Serdyukov and his Indian counterpart A. K. Antony.

    The main focus of discussions during the meeting will be the extension of the existing bilateral agreement on military-technical cooperation for another 10 years, from 2011 to 2020.

    Russian-Indian intergovernmental commission sessions are held annually and alternate between New Delhi and Moscow.

    The current cooperation program until 2010 comprises about 200 joint projects, including the modernization of the Vikramaditya aircraft carrier (formerly the Admiral Gorshkov) for the Indian navy, the transfer of technology for the licensed assembly of T-90 tanks in India, the production of BrahMos missiles and the purchase of Smerch MLRS by India.

    http://en.rian.ru/mlitary_news/20091010/156415109.html

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    I love your positive attitude but to me a bit unrealistic.... Even conventional there is no way India can beat countries like China and Pakistan. Back then it had overwhelming powers and numbers but it did not eliminate countries. I doubt it will happen now the entire region in nuclear. At the moment India's greatest fear is from the inside. Maoist rebels pose threat. According to your respected mr Singh it is the greatest problem at the moment. But there are many challenges besides that. The Kashmir area is filled with troubles. China border is a unsettled area. Tamil problem is not settled. And conventional the Indian power is at development and needs time to become better.
    1. Please stop putting China and Pakistan in the same bracket. Yes China is Pakistan's all weather ally etc. but the reality is that Pakistan is an unstable quasi military state which do not have control over large sections of its territory while China is going to be the worlds next super power. The notion of China and India fighting anything bigger than a border conflict is just a dream in Pakistani minds and a nightmare for some Paranoid Indians, that will never happen. India is building up forces in its east merely as a deterrence and to provide logistical support in-terms of border conflicts. As for Pakistan India is clearly confident of winning a conventional or nuclear war but it is not proactive and exercises great restraint, India will not fight a war with Pakistan unless with the world opinion behind it. Just know than in all the past wars India fought with Pakistan, Pakistan was the aggressor. I do not think Pakistan is stupid enough to fight India as the capability gap between the two armed forces is set to rise in years to come.

    2. Maoist insurgency and Kashmir insurgency are internal matters. We have had problems like this in the past, we have destroyed the Khalistan insurgents and survived the peak of Kashmir insurgency. India is a country of a billion people, there is only so much a terrorist can kill, even if he uses a nuke.

    3. China border while being unsettled is 10 times as peaceful as the Pakistani border, there is no cross-border firing or causalities on either side, the soldiers from both sides meet up and talk regularly and the occasional trespasses are because of a lack of consensus on an international border. The border situation is not as complex as it is with Pakistan and there is a good chance of it being settled through talks in the near distant future.

    4. There is no Tamil problem. Tamils are fully integrated...to dig up Tamil problem you have to go back several decades. The government of India fully backed the Lankans on their operation against LTTE, and apart from some stray noises here and there, there was no problems even when Prabhakaran was killed. Indians have by and large moved on from their petty regional squabbles.

    India is still license producing arms and needs to send major parts to Russia to overhaul... There is a whole new world if you talk about MRCA. You do not have a can of people that can do it all. We havfe heard about numerous problems in maintenance of Mig21. Assembly of Jaguars. I do not think that cleaning up the planes is same as mastering them. Otherwise you would not have that many problems with making LCA. There is no decent developed aviation industry that can handle those problems. You can list up hundreds of factories or plans but the end result is that there is no plane flying that meets the standards of today.
    Did you read that article posted by Austin? We are not sending major parts like engines, radar and other structures, they are assembled and overhauled here. The word 'overhaul' is used a bit liberally there by RIANOVOSTI what they mean is the next phased upgrade of the Su 30 MKI platform, which may include an AESA upgrade of the BARS. There are several components which are sourced from Russia, this like Teer pointed out is because IAF wanted the jets to be in service by 2015. License production and ToT do not mean you can build your own MKI the next day under a different name. That capability have to developed in house and we are doing just that at the moment.

    The MKIs for example exceeds anything in the Pakistani arsenal. They are flying and are being made in India. The LCA when it is out will be more than capable than any Pakistani fighter other than the Block 52+ F 16s.
    Last edited by ante_climax; 11th October 2009 at 10:01.

  27. #627
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    Quote Originally Posted by ante_climax View Post
    Shiv Aroor Just Flew the Gripen Again. Its his personal experience rather than a news item. I think its best read from his blog.

    http://livefist.blogspot.com/2009/10/shiv-aroor.html
    And here is Part 2

    http://livefist.blogspot.com/2009/10...gripen-in.html

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    Quote Originally Posted by ante_climax View Post
    The MKIs for example exceeds anything in the Pakistani arsenal. They are flying and are being made in India. The LCA when it is out will be more than capable than any Pakistani fighter other than the Block 52+ F 16s.
    LCA is hardly more then a plane in development. We have read the nice parameters decades ago, yet the development is not finished and you are already promoting it. It is heavier then planned and underpowered even by using a foreign engine. Since when is operational? I surely missed that. MKI is assembled and not made in India. It needs to be seen how well it performes in real combat. I am not that convinced that it is superb compared to its opponents. Somehow you turn everything into your position but the reality is a bit different.

    There is no need to jump into a is better then anything else while you have no info but personal opinions.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Insig View Post
    LCA is hardly more then a plane in development. We have read the nice parameters decades ago, yet the development is not finished and you are already promoting it. It is heavier then planned and underpowered even by using a foreign engine. Since when is operational? I surely missed that. MKI is assembled and not made in India. It needs to be seen how well it performes in real combat. I am not that convinced that it is superb compared to its opponents. Somehow you turn everything into your position but the reality is a bit different.

    There is no need to jump into a is better then anything else while you have no info but personal opinions.
    LCA is already in to LSP stage and 40 MKI versions will be inducted in the next few years. MKI is made in India under license from Russia. Like i said read the article Austin posted.

    The Real-Combat record of F 16 against forces with inferior aircraft,numbers and training may not hold true against a decent air force either.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ante_climax View Post
    LCA is already in to LSP stage and 40 MKI versions will be inducted in the next few years. MKI is made in India under license from Russia. Like i said read the article Austin posted.

    The Real-Combat record of F 16 against forces with inferior aircraft,numbers and training may not hold true against a decent air force either.
    Then I will be happy if we can discuss the LCA when it is inducted and that will be in a few years. We cannot compare paper planes with real planes. MKI is not made in India. MKI is invented by Russians. It is build by Russians. The parts are exported by Russians. And these parts are assembled in India. Even the process control is done by Russians. There is a way difference between building a plane and putting it together. If you look careful at some inside reports you will see that it is cheaper for India to import all poarts then setup a local production facility. You know the sites and otherwise I can help you with finding them.

    I am not a fan of combat records based on onesided info. I agree that shooting down a crippled Iraci airforce plane is hardly a kill. But telling that a plane, that has no war record at all, is superb over everything is even more unreliable. I am not comparing yet but purely reacting to a statement that is based on IHNC (I Have No Clue).

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