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Thread: Saab JAS 39 Gripen Info # 2

  1. #661
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    Quote Originally Posted by Per-Olof View Post
    One report was leaked, and its no coinsidense that it was just exactly that old evaluation that said Gripen wouldnt meet SAF needs. I'm fully aware that officialy its said to originate from a swiss officer, u can rest asure it wasnt without help financially from dassault.
    Someone at the SAF was paid by Dassault to leak that report?

  2. #662
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    Quote Originally Posted by Per-Olof View Post
    Raw conclusion is simple: Gripen E/F wasnt the best aircraft overall in the final evaluation, but met min.req on all aspects and it was the most economical buy.
    BTW, will the SAF get "new production" Gripens or get some ex-Swedish Gripens upgraded to the E/F standard?

    In 2001 Saab stated FMV "ordered" 204 Gripens, and the page 10 of the 2011 Year End Report dated 10th February 2012 and the Swedish Ny Teknik article below seem to suggest all 67 export/leased Gripens so far actually have come out of those 204 Gripens ordered by FMV before 2001.

    The Ny Teknik article says "The Swedish Armed Forces bought 204 pieces of the JAS 39 Gripen of Saab since the first orders were in the 1980s" and "In total there are currently 134 aircraft in service in the Swedish Air Force", which means Sweden ordered 204 and then sold/leased off 67 to other countries, leaving 134 in the Swedish air force service. Remaining 3 could perhaps be used by Saab for development work.

    http://www.nyteknik.se/nyheter/fordo...cle3419633.ece

    FAKTA 204 plan för 130 miljarder

    Det svenska försvaret har köpt 204 stycken Jas 39 Gripen av Saab sedan de första beställningarna lades på 1980-talet. Sammanlagt har det kostat svenska skattebetalare cirka 130 miljarder kronor.

    De 204 planen blev 201 sedan tre plan använts till annat. Så här fördelade sig de 201 planen:

    Jas 39A: 104 st (varav ca 25 st Jas 39A har ombyggts till 14 st JAS 39C/D för Ungern)
    Jas 39B: 14 st
    Jas 39C: 69 st (varav 12 st leasas av Tjeckien)
    Jas 39D: 14 st (varav 2 st leasas av Tjeckien)

    Totalt finns i dag 134 flygplan i tjänst i det svenska flygvapnet:

    Jas 39A: 54 st
    Jas 39B: 12 st
    Jas 39C: 56 st
    Jas 39D: 12 st

    Källa: Försvarsmakten
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    Last edited by datafuser; 15th March 2012 at 22:44.

  3. #663
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kovy View Post
    replace Italy by Sweeden and France by, let say... Brazil for instance.
    that should unleash your imagination.
    Embargoing Gripen E/F is difficult without embargoing F-18E/F, which not only has the same engines, but has Swedish-made parts (with Volvo IP) in them. An embargo is complicated in such circumstances. This may explain why the Swedes are relaxed about the issue.
    Juris praecepta sunt haec: honeste vivere, alterum non laedere, suum cuique tribuere.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Per-Olof View Post
    Raw conclusion is simple: Gripen E/F wasnt the best aircraft overall in the final evaluation, but met min.req on all aspects and it was the most economical buy. No foul play was involved in this evaluation, that has ben reported from major military media as most likelly the most objective and torough competition we have seen so far in a fighterbuy internationally.
    The most objective and thorough competition? Don't know about that, but one thing's for sure; the Swiss AF didn't get the fighter that they wanted after having conducted a thorough evaluation of the contenders. A competition that evaluated the candidates eventually chose the one that was most economical, not the one that met their requirements the best.

    The Swiss AF most likely won't be disappointed since the Gripen NG is no slouch either, indeed is one of the best in its weight class and the Swiss AF really isn't likely to ever even use their fighters in anger, but economics played the biggest part in this selection. Boeing was smart, pulling out its Super Hornet from the competition saying that the Swiss AF requirements for the F-5 replacement were too minimalistic, meaning that they knew that the Super Hornet would be good in the evaluations but wouldn't fit their budget.
    "By the whiskers of Kurvi-Tasch!"

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kramer View Post
    The most objective and thorough competition? Don't know about that, but one thing's for sure; the Swiss AF didn't get the fighter that they wanted after having conducted a thorough evaluation of the contenders. A competition that evaluated the candidates eventually chose the one that was most economical, not the one that met their requirements the best.

    The Swiss AF most likely won't be disappointed since the Gripen NG is no slouch either, indeed is one of the best in its weight class and the Swiss AF really isn't likely to ever even use their fighters in anger, but economics played the biggest part in this selection. Boeing was smart, pulling out its Super Hornet from the competition saying that the Swiss AF requirements for the F-5 replacement were too minimalistic, meaning that they knew that the Super Hornet would be good in the evaluations but wouldn't fit their budget.
    To say that this was all about economics would be too simplistic since most such competitions would have arrived at similar conclusions. As long as products meet the minimum required criterion, it becomes a case of economics; would the Rafale/Typhoon have had any chance in India if the Super Hornet or Gripen were shortlisted alongside them.

    I don't think Boeing withdrew the Super Hornet on cost grounds; it is significantly cheaper than the two big Euro-canards and almost comes close to the Gripen if you factor in commonality with their fleet of upgraded hornets (weapons, avionics and targeting systems). The Swiss AF requirements were hardly minimalistic-capabilities such as high turnaround/sortie rates, STOL and low operating costs are capabilities that large aircraft (such as the Super Hornet) are hardly comfortable with.

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    My understanding is that the gripen NG share some fuselage components with gripen A/B and gripen C/D, but that all ramaining A/B's are due for upgrade to C/D standard. And besides there are buyers in line for those more or less, so my guess is that swiss AF will get brand new gripen NG's. Altough they might get some gripen D versions to get going with pilottraining ASAP if required.
    (but i can ask some who knews abaut this.

    The statment abaout this competition being very fair and thorough, is present in many of the big military magazines and newssites.

    My understanding is also that SAF was divided abaout what aircraft they wanted, Gripen provides an excellent working environment for pilots, but there's other crew involved dont forget ground crew. And still, when explained abaut the economics even more of the involved staff started to understand the gripen concept. Swiss airforce commander has also strongly made announcments abaut this issue.

  7. #667
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    Quote Originally Posted by Per-Olof View Post
    My understanding is that the gripen NG share some fuselage components with gripen A/B and gripen C/D, but that all ramaining A/B's are due for upgrade to C/D standard. And besides there are buyers in line for those more or less, so my guess is that swiss AF will get brand new gripen NG's. Altough they might get some gripen D versions to get going with pilottraining ASAP if required.
    (but i can ask some who knews abaut this.

    The statment abaout this competition being very fair and thorough, is present in many of the big military magazines and newssites.

    My understanding is also that SAF was divided abaout what aircraft they wanted, Gripen provides an excellent working environment for pilots, but there's other crew involved dont forget ground crew. And still, when explained abaut the economics even more of the involved staff started to understand the gripen concept. Swiss airforce commander has also strongly made announcments abaut this issue.
    OK, have all those 204 Gripens ordered by FMV already been manufactured & delivered?

    I've read somewhere that the Swedish air force plans to keep only about 100 Gripens, so I guess at least 34 Gripens are surplus to requirement - can be sold/leased to any taker?
    Last edited by datafuser; 16th March 2012 at 06:26.

  8. #668
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    Quote Originally Posted by datafuser View Post
    OK, have all those 204 Gripens ordered by FMV already been manufactured & delivered?

    I've read somewhere that the Swedish air force plans to keep only about 100 Gripens, so I guess at least 34 Gripens are surplus to requirement - can be sold/leased to any taker?
    Here is a reference from swedish AF, remember that 3 aircrafts where test -aircrafts, never delivered to SwAF. I cant find any english version. 134 are used by SwAF, it doesnt show the complete picture tough, because i miss southafrica and Thailand aircrafts. My source says that Swiss AF is buying new aircrafts, but they will surely lease some (new) C/D or Versions for a short while before delivery. If they want to start pilottraining and so on. Im sure they can have them in place in short notice.

    There are strong interest in tje remaining C/D-versions from other users, both current operators and new ones. The deal with SAF does not in any way come as a result from surplus older versions. Thats another story altoghether.

    Till FMV/Försvarsmakten levererade Jas 39 Gripen
    Totalt: 201 st
    Jas 39A: 104 st (varav ca 25 st Jas 39A har ombyggts till 14 st JAS 39C/D för Ungern)
    Jas 39B: 14 st
    Jas 39C: 69 st (varav 12 st leasas av Tjeckien)
    Jas 39D: 14 st (varav 2 st leasas av Tjeckien)
    (Ursprungligen beställdes totalt 204 st JAS 39. 1 st Jas 39A fick ersätta provflygplan 39-1 som havererade 1989, 1 st Jas 39A blev prototyp för tvåsitsiga Jas 39B, 1 st Jas 39C blev provflygplan vid Saab)

    Totalt finns 134 flygplan i tjänst i det svenska flygvapnet:
    Jas 39A: 54 st
    Jas 39B: 12 st.
    Jas 39C: 56 st.
    Jas 39D: 12 st.

    Andcif u compare notes with wiki it makes sence
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saab_Gripen
    According to this 163 is in service. Those that are missing should be old A/B version due for upgrade to C/D standard by request from SwAF and other users, and those in storage.
    Last edited by Per-Olof; 16th March 2012 at 15:32. Reason: Explaining

  9. #669
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    That implies that both the Thai & South African aircraft are new, & the number 0f 204 built for Sweden should be reduced by ca 11 to allow for the 14 Hungarian C/D being built from ca 25 cannibalised A.
    Last edited by swerve; 16th March 2012 at 16:13.
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  10. #670
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    Quote Originally Posted by Per-Olof View Post
    Here is a reference from swedish AF, remember that 3 aircrafts where test -aircrafts, never delivered to SwAF. I cant find any english version. 134 are used by SwAF, it doesnt show the complete picture tough, because i miss southafrica and Thailand aircrafts. My source says that Swiss AF is buying new aircrafts, but they will surely lease some (new) C/D or Versions for a short while before delivery. If they want to start pilottraining and so on. Im sure they can have them in place in short notice.

    There are strong interest in tje remaining C/D-versions from other users, both current operators and new ones. The deal with SAF does not in any way come as a result from surplus older versions. Thats another story altoghether.

    Till FMV/Försvarsmakten levererade Jas 39 Gripen
    Totalt: 201 st
    Jas 39A: 104 st (varav ca 25 st Jas 39A har ombyggts till 14 st JAS 39C/D för Ungern)
    Jas 39B: 14 st
    Jas 39C: 69 st (varav 12 st leasas av Tjeckien)
    Jas 39D: 14 st (varav 2 st leasas av Tjeckien)
    (Ursprungligen beställdes totalt 204 st JAS 39. 1 st Jas 39A fick ersätta provflygplan 39-1 som havererade 1989, 1 st Jas 39A blev prototyp för tvåsitsiga Jas 39B, 1 st Jas 39C blev provflygplan vid Saab)

    Totalt finns 134 flygplan i tjänst i det svenska flygvapnet:
    Jas 39A: 54 st
    Jas 39B: 12 st.
    Jas 39C: 56 st.
    Jas 39D: 12 st.

    Andcif u compare notes with wiki it makes sence
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saab_Gripen
    According to this 163 is in service. Those that are missing should be old A/B version due for upgrade to C/D standard by request from SwAF and other users, and those in storage.
    134 in SwAF + 67 export/lease + 3 test aircraft = 204 originally ordered by FMV for SwAF

    67 export/lease = 26 South Africa + 14 Czech + 14 Hungary + 12 Thailand + 1 UK ETPS

    It gives me an impression that all the export campaigns so far (perhaps except the Swiss campaign?) have been just to offload unwanted Gripens to somebody else.



    Last edited by datafuser; 16th March 2012 at 16:39.

  11. #671
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    No, the South African aircraft were new built, & that sales campaign, & others (e.g. Poland) never offered aircraft intended for Sweden. SAAB said in 2008 that all the aircraft for Thailand would be new.

    The Brazilian & Indian campaigns have always been for the sale of completely new aircraft, not ex-SwAF. The availability of surplus Swedish aircraft has been touted to Brazil as an advantage, but only in that some could be lent pending delivery of new built Gripen NGs.

    The offers to Bulgaria, Romania, & Croatia, if successful, should mop up all the spare aircraft.
    Juris praecepta sunt haec: honeste vivere, alterum non laedere, suum cuique tribuere.
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    But it is true that sweden ordered more aircrafts then they later needed due to the fall of sovietunion, but that order was changed and not all where delivered. First order was put during the height of cold war, and the military situation was totally different, SwAF loves their Gripens and have had few problems with the system. Altough many squadrons have vanished since the 1980'ies.

    There is a big difference betwen A/B versions and C/D versions. The E/F version is more or less a totally new aircraft, but many parts are shared between the versions. All foreign operators have been supplied with totally new C/D version to my knowledge. Not sure about the plane that empire test school is using tough. None of the export has been to offload anything sweden didnt want, on the contrary i think BAE/SAAB have bought back several new aircrafts from SAF in storage to keep up with export.

    All the different operators are very satisfied with their gripens, neither Brazil nor Swiss AF have been interested in the C/D version other then leasing, in wait of delivery on E/F. There is interest from several countries on remaining new pr lowhour Gripens that could be totally refurbished to C/D status.

    Gripen has proven itself as a very competent system both at red flag and in Libya.

  13. #673
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    Quote Originally Posted by Per-Olof View Post
    Gripen has proven itself as a very competent system both at red flag and in Libya.
    Do you have any detailed info on those?

    Nic
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    Gripen has proven itself as a very competent system both at red flag and in Libya.
    There weren't even any Libyan planes in the skies in Libya.

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    On Libya
    http://forum.keypublishing.com/showp...&postcount=590

    I can barely find a single thing on Red flag, let alone a complete aar
    Nov 16/06: Saab's release discusses the Gripen's performance at Red Flag Alaska. During the 11-day exercise, the 4 aircraft each flew 2 sorties per day, accumulating 340 flight hours (150 'on mission') with a staff of 12 pilots and 35 maintenance technicians.

    In the tactical realm, note the release's confirmation that the JAS-39 has the ability to drop Laser Guided Bombs carried on one Gripen aircraft, using laser designator pods fitted to another Gripen aircraft. The aircraft's warning and electronic warfare systems (EWS) also got high ratings: Lt. Col. Lindberg said that "...it was almost impossible for the Red air force to get through our EW systems. We always knew where the air defense was, could avoid them and still do our work, even in very dynamic situations, with the threat getting more complex each day."
    http://www.xairforces.com/newsd.asp?newsid=237&newst=8
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    Quote Originally Posted by swerve View Post
    No, the South African aircraft were new built, & that sales campaign, & others (e.g. Poland) never offered aircraft intended for Sweden. SAAB said in 2008 that all the aircraft for Thailand would be new.
    I didn't say South African Gripens are not new builds.

    Note that what Saab said in their 2011 Year End Report below.

    Swedish Air Force:
    120 aircraft: 106 JAS 39A and 14 JAS 39B 84 aircraft : 70 JAS 39C and 14 JAS 39D

    This means Sweden ordered 204 Gripens and then diverted 26 not-yet-built Gripens (or delivery slots) to South Africa.

    Numbers add up like this.

    134 in SwAF + 67 export/lease + 3 test aircraft = 204 originally ordered by FMV for SwAF

    67 export/lease = 26 South Africa + 14 Czech + 14 Hungary + 12 Thailand + 1 UK ETPS

    The conclusion I can draw from the numbers above is that Sweden ordered 204 and then offloaded unwanted, not-yet-built Gripens to South Africa, Czech, Hungary and Thailand.

    Last edited by datafuser; 17th March 2012 at 04:23.

  17. #677
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    Quote Originally Posted by Per-Olof View Post
    But it is true that sweden ordered more aircrafts then they later needed due to the fall of sovietunion, but that order was changed and not all where delivered.
    Out of 204 Gripens ordered by FMV, how many are not yet manufactured/delivered?

    Also note that what Saab said in their 2011 Year End Report.

    Swedish Air Force:
    120 aircraft: 106 JAS 39A and 14 JAS 39B 84 aircraft : 70 JAS 39C and 14 JAS 39D

    And the numbers add up nicely like this: 134 in SwAF + 67 export/lease + 3 test aircraft = 204 originally ordered by FMV for SwAF

    Yes South Africa, Czech, Hungary and Thailand all received new builds, but those new builds were originally ordered by FMV for the Swedish air force. That means Sweden sold unwanted "delivery slots" to other countries.
    Last edited by datafuser; 17th March 2012 at 04:36.

  18. #678
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    Quote Originally Posted by datafuser View Post
    Out of 204 Gripens ordered by FMV, how many are not yet manufactured/delivered?

    Also note that what Saab said in their 2011 Year End Report.

    Swedish Air Force:
    120 aircraft: 106 JAS 39A and 14 JAS 39B 84 aircraft : 70 JAS 39C and 14 JAS 39D

    And the numbers add up nicely like this: 134 in SwAF + 67 export/lease + 3 test aircraft = 204 originally ordered by FMV for SwAF

    Yes South Africa, Czech, Hungary and Thailand all received new builds, but those new builds were originally ordered by FMV for the Swedish air force. That means Sweden sold unwanted "delivery slots" to other countries.
    That is true, if u are unaware of the difference between A/B and C/D versions. But i think they retain the first productionnumber. The rebuild is massive tough.

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    Czech Air Force Gripens Refuel In Flight for First Time



    On Tuesday 28 February 2012 for the first time in the history of the Czech Air Force carried out an airplane in-flight refueling in Ronneby, Sweden. JAS 39 Gripen to the Czech pilot on board several times successfully merged with the Swedish Air Force tanker C-130 Hercules.

    This training of two pilots were selected from 21 Tactical Air Force Major Jaroslav Čáslav Toman and Captain Peter Dřevecký. During the Monday to the late evening hours passed both demanding theory. Today the long awaited follow a practical part, which consisted of Czech driver training instructor in the Swedish two-seat version of the supersonic aircraft JAS 39 Gripen.

  20. #680
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    Quote Originally Posted by datafuser View Post
    Out of 204 Gripens ordered by FMV, how many are not yet manufactured/delivered?
    1. None. According to the FMV, all 204 Gripen A/B/C/D ordered by Sweden had been delivered by 2008.

    From contract to final delivery
    After the parliamentary decision in 1982 FMV signed agreements for the development of the JAS 39 Gripen. The contract included five test aircraft and a first batch of 30 aircraft and associated support systems. There was also an option for a further 110 aircraft. Supplier was Industrial Group JAS (IG JAS), a single contractor of five industrial companies.

    Ten years later FMV agree with the IG JAS on the conditions for continued development and manufacturing. The agreement included:

    Development of two-seat version JAS 39B
    acquisition of batch 2 of 110 aircraft including 14 two-seater aircraft
    acquisition of additional support.
    The government decided in 1997 on the acquisition of a third batch comprising 64 aircraft and a further development and adaptation programs. FMV commenced delivery to the Armed Forces in 2003 and in December 2008, FMV has delivered the final aircraft in the three part series.
    Elsewhere on the FMV site, it says it took delivery of the last aircraft from SAAB in November 2008, which agrees with the above. The 100th was delivered in March 2001.

    Quote Originally Posted by datafuser View Post
    Also note that what Saab said in their 2011 Year End Report.

    Swedish Air Force:
    120 aircraft: 106 JAS 39A and 14 JAS 39B 84 aircraft : 70 JAS 39C and 14 JAS 39D

    And the numbers add up nicely like this: 134 in SwAF + 67 export/lease + 3 test aircraft = 204 originally ordered by FMV for SwAF

    Yes South Africa, Czech, Hungary and Thailand all received new builds, but those new builds were originally ordered by FMV for the Swedish air force. That means Sweden sold unwanted "delivery slots" to other countries.
    As well as what the FMV says on its website, the numbers don't match Swedish orders once one looks beyond the totals.

    The Hungarian C/Ds were rebuilt from existing As. The total number of Hungarian C/Ds produced was 14, but it's reported that more than 14 As were cannibalised. That produces a shortfall in numbers.

    A total of six have been lost:
    1 prototype 1989
    1 A 1993 (in FMV hands)
    1 A 1999
    1 A 2005
    1 C 2007
    1 destroyed in a ground accident 2010

    It therefore cannot be true that only 204 aircraft have been built, of which 67 have been delivered to foreign customers, 134 are in the Swedish air force, & 3 are or were test aircraft.

    The breakdown of A/B/C/D doesn't match, either, even allowing for the conversion of 31 A/B to C/D for Sweden announced in 2007 & still ongoing.

    Thai aircraft have all been built new since the end of Swedish deliveries. Czech C/D bought by Sweden & leased on. Hungarian are C/D rebuilt from A/B bought by Sweden. South Africa has C/D - but they can't be unwanted delivery slots because of the timing, & nor can they be ex-Swedish C/D because of both timing & numbers breakdown. The South African Gripens (17 C, 9 D) started delivery in 2008 & the last is expected this year according to the South African air force website.

    Per-Olofs source says 56 C in Swedish service, for example. From 69 ordered, deduct 12 leased to the Czechs = 57. Less one lost = 56. No room for diversion to South Africa there. 14 D ordered - 2 Czech = 12 in the Swedish air force - which agrees with Per-Olofs source. And so on.

    Sweden now has stored Gripen A/B available for sale or lease, & some A/B out of service while they are rebuilt to C/D. You have to factor them into the numbers.
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    The Swiss officers support the Gripen

    Army-At their meeting of delegates, which took place yesterday in Lucerne, the Swiss officers have supported the Gripen. What matters most to them is to acquire new combat aircraft quickly.

    At 52, Brigadier Denis Vaud Froidevaux yesterday acceded to the presidency of the Swiss officers. This is the first time in 20 years that Romand was elected to this function. He succeeds Colonel Hans Schatzmann.

    Ueli Maurer, the Patriotic
    "You're one of the best army in the world," rejoiced Ueli Maurer, Federal Councillor in charge of the defense yesterday to the Swiss Society of officers, meeting in an assembly of delegates in Lucerne. In his argument for the beauty of the Swiss army, he explained that the militia system guaranteed exceptional skills in human resources. "You could say that Switzerland is an army." In the process, he made a comparison with Spain and the United States. "In Spain, they must recruit mercenaries in South America. And the United States, there are ex-convicts who join the military! "In short, for him, the Swiss army, this is really the best in the world.

    The Swiss officers (SSO) adopted a resolution requesting the Federal Council and Parliament "the rapid acquisition of new fighter aircraft." And according to testimony that "Sunday Morning" has gathered yesterday in Lucerne, where they attended the annual meeting of delegates of the SSO, the Gripen does not pose any problem for them. The important thing is best to acquire a new aircraft.

    "Planning for the future development of the army, which provides an effective 100 000 troops and an annual budget of 5 billion francs in 2014, and the purchase of new fighter planes, must be guaranteed," said Hammered Colonel Hans Schatzmann, President of the SSO.

    The Federal Council attacked

    His speech about the annual report of the company has also taken on the appearance of repeated attacks against the latest twists political security of the country. He particularly wants the Federal Council, which he accused turncoat. "The Federal Council has proposed to Parliament to return to the solution of a maximum strength of 80,000 military personnel and an annual budget capped at 4.4 billion francs. The SSO application to the Federal Council to respect the decision of Parliament (note: a workforce of 100,000 soldiers and an annual budget of 5 billion francs in 2014) and implement it without any other condition. "

    Hans Schatzmann and regretting the competition between the tasks of the state: "More army seems to mean the Federal Council for less education, less research, less public transport, fewer and fewer environmental resources our farmers. This populist argument, if not demagogic Federal Council, completely covering the financial-political reality. Past twenty years, no department, except that of defense, has had to make savings. "He is joined in this argument by his successor, elected yesterday as president, Brigadier Denis Froidevaux Vaud. This is the first Romand to access this function for 20 years: "In three years, the army has donated 900 million francs that she had not used. But these savings are not reallocated to new fighter aircraft! In addition the Federal Council requires a reduction of defense costs. So where did the money go? This is outrageous and dishonest. Because if you buy another plane that the Gripen, more expensive, we put the army to its knees financially. "

    This reasoning is shared by several officers. Just like the captain: "If this plane is good for Sweden, why would it not Lake Geneva to Lake Constance, especially as this is the cheapest?" Denis Froidevaux sees another advantage "We are defending a military trainer that uses and develops skills. It's perfect: a part of the maintenance of Gripen can be done in Switzerland with companies instead. "This poses a problem for officers rather, it is communication that has surrounded the advent of sulfur Gripen. "It was ambiguous and incomplete by the Federal Council and especially the Department of Defense. And here I speak not of the assessment process but the motivations of the choice of the aircraft, "Major Benoît Dumas analysis, committee member of the League of Fribourg officers. A vision that adheres Denis Froidevaux: "It was not very professional. We started by saying that this airplane was ideal because of its price. While he was primarily talking about our needs in terms of safety. "

    Maurer replica

    Approached by "Sunday Morning" on the issue of communication, Federal Councillor Ueli Maurer, head of Department of Defense, who was also present in Lucerne, emerges as key: "There will be a new fighter aircraft, it agrees on that. As for communication, I do not think there was a problem. But there is a militia army, then there are so many opinions on the matter. "

    Regarding the criticism of the SSO with respect to the Federal Council in terms of security policy, Maurer has set the record straight in plenum: "The Federal Council is only the tip of the iceberg. It's too easy to pick on him because there is a whole process downstream. "

    The army chief, Andre Blattman, summarized in an aside that the Gripen was clearly "the optimal aircraft. In financial and operational."

    Google translated from: http://www.lematin.ch/suisse/officie...story/18897673

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    Nothing wrong with that, I understand that they would prefer a new aircraft no matter what than no aircraft at all... However the polemic isn't about that. It's why they haven't made it clear from the beginning that only the cheaper package would be selected no matter what you put inside ? It is was so then ET would not have be pre selected (i.e Brazil), Rafale would have bid on a different number of airframe, and Gripen would have cost way more...

    Anyway I hope they solve that issue soon before the US can find a way to sell them some F-35... somehow !
    “Nothing is impossible, the word itself says 'I'm possible'!”

  23. #683
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    Glarus/ Switzerland
    Posts
    236
    Swedish Air Force Will Need 60 to 80 New Next-Generation JAS Gripen Fighters



    The Swedish Air Force will require at least 60 to 80 next-generation JAS Gripen fighters to replace its present Gripen fleet. The replacement process should begin no later than 2020, according to a report presented by the Armed Forces Command (AFC) to the Ministry of Defense.

    The report was given to the Parliamentary Defense Committee (PDC) on March 15.

    JAS Gripen will meet the Armed Forces' operational needs at least to 2040, and the system should be the core of the Swedish air defense. Sweden needs at least 60-80 aircraft.

  24. #684
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    Jun 2008
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    2,048
    Quote Originally Posted by Mildave View Post
    Nothing wrong with that, I understand that they would prefer a new aircraft no matter what than no aircraft at all... However the polemic isn't about that. It's why they haven't made it clear from the beginning that only the cheaper package would be selected no matter what you put inside ? It is was so then ET would not have be pre selected (i.e Brazil), Rafale would have bid on a different number of airframe, and Gripen would have cost way more...

    Anyway I hope they solve that issue soon before the US can find a way to sell them some F-35... somehow !
    Dassault (not Rafale) could not have "bid on a different number of airframe", since the minimum of 22 was already reached.

    The cheaper package is not to be chosen "no matter what your put inside", had that been the case they would have bought Gripen A/B not Gripen E/F...

    The polemic has in part been about false rumors spread (in part by Rafale fanboys) that the Swiss airforce prefers the Rafale not Gripen, the above posting shows however that this is false, the Swiss military does indeed prefer Gripen because it meets the requirements both technical and financial. Whereas Rafale met only the technical.

    It's not about choosing the "best" a/c but the one that gets the job done within a certain budget.

  25. #685
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    Dec 2009
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    1,814
    the "false rumors" have been spread by Swiss military and swiss medias... now, unless they are all rafale fanboys, you have a problem with your statement

    what's more, the entire process has been questioned at the swiss parliament.... rafale fanboys as well?

    as for the "fitting requirements"

    the gripen has been considered inadequate. then, the swiss minister declared it fit the requirements, then they announced they'll make an "evaluation" to validate it (weird way to proceed if you ask me: first you say "it's ok" and then you make the evaluation to "see if it's ok" )


    sorry, but one thing is clear: Maurer obviously decided he'd go for SAAB (cheapest option available) regardless of evaluation results... claiming a "new evaluation" after was just plain politicians BS to give it a looks of a valid claim

    Can the gripen replace the F-5s? yes

    was the whole process made as it was claimed to be (fair, by the rules, and so on)? no.

  26. #686
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    Feb 2011
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    796
    Some facts need to be put straight as some wants to self convince themselves with false argument and turn a blind eye at several aspect of the evaluation.

    The test pilots who tested the 3 aircrafts in competition in switzerland clearly preferred the rafale and were pretty disappointed that other factors lead toward opting for the least performant aircrafts. As a consequence they leaked part of the evaluation to the press.

    The gripen indeed latter met the minimum requirements which led to a controversy and an inquiry but it was still the worst performer on a purely technical standpoint as Mauer stated himself that you "can't always afford the best".

    Now if the gripen choice does not work chances is that switzerland will end up with nothing. So sure the military have to endorse this choice especially as other parts of the swiss army will have more money.

    But trying to dissimulate the fact that the test pilots did not prefer the rafale is simply wrong. Just that other factors like price and the fact that switzerland is not under immediate threat to say the least played in favor of the gripen.

  27. #687
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    Jun 2008
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    Quote Originally Posted by eagle1 View Post
    Some facts need to be put straight as some wants to self convince themselves with false argument and turn a blind eye at several aspect of the evaluation.

    The test pilots who tested the 3 aircrafts in competition in switzerland clearly preferred the rafale and were pretty disappointed that other factors lead toward opting for the least performant aircrafts. As a consequence they leaked part of the evaluation to the press.

    The gripen indeed latter met the minimum requirements which led to a controversy and an inquiry but it was still the worst performer on a purely technical standpoint as Mauer stated himself that you "can't always afford the best".

    Now if the gripen choice does not work chances is that switzerland will end up with nothing. So sure the military have to endorse this choice especially as other parts of the swiss army will have more money.

    But trying to dissimulate the fact that the test pilots did not prefer the rafale is simply wrong. Just that other factors like price and the fact that switzerland is not under immediate threat to say the least played in favor of the gripen.
    How do you know it was the test pilots that leaked the reports? There is an investigation ongoing and it seems you have some inside information into this, I take it you will share this with the Swiss authorities? I also find it curious that a person that seems to act as a Rafale PR person has such highly sensitive knowledge about the leaks...

    At least one test pilot has in public fully endorsed the choice of Gripen NG, as I am sure you know. So either he was lying or one of the other test pilots was the leak?

    Pilots always wants "the best" however one thing you fail to mention is that in my posting above the Swiss military did not suggest to go for e.g. 15 Rafale instead of 22 Gripen NG... so perhaps they are not so dissatisfied with the Gripen NG as you try to portray. And perhaps the Swiss military are telling the truth when they say the 2008/2009 reports are outdated. Or perhaps even just 15 Rafale are more expensive than 22 Gripen?

  28. #688
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Posts
    796
    It is the swiss media and swiss poitics themselves who stated that those leaks come within the swiss military. The latest controversy about the sudden change of weighting so that the gripen could meet the minimum requirements were considered serious and detailed enough to launch an inquiry. When those leaks occurred swiss politics themselves stated that such information can only come from the swiss military.

    Then when swiss media reports about the "feeling of disgust" of the pilots about such a choice and when Mauer tells that they can't always afford the best it is clear that the gripen was not the best technically. You can also mention Fernand Carrel former swiss air force chief just a couple days before the results who stated that the pilots preferred the rafale. He reported this in the press, radio and TV.

    In the end the gripen is certainly a reasonable choice for switzerland if you don't look at the selection process for a moment. I am just saying that there are certainly plenty of reasons to chose the gripen but at the same time it was not the favored option on a strictly technical standpoint.

  29. #689
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Posts
    15
    The evaluation was never either technical performance or economy. Its was clearly a balanced decision based on both. When one reads some of the comments its hard to respond on the most biased conclusions.

    When Gripen was first designed it had to meet strict economical standards, as well as the technical. We have clearly seen an development where airforces araound the world have to comply to fiscal budgets and finances overall. The market for fighters that have extreme pricetags and high maintenance costs are in less demand worldwide.

    Had the engineers on SAAB the same financial budget that Rafale got, u could rest asure the specs would be different, but they hadn't. Sure enough, thats why they now have the orders on a sell for Gripen NG to Schweiz. Just because everything in this world have a pricetag, and theres no guarantees that the best product always sell the most, its all about what u get for the buck. Most bang for the buck.

  30. #690
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Posts
    479
    Quote Originally Posted by swerve View Post
    1. None. According to the FMV, all 204 Gripen A/B/C/D ordered by Sweden had been delivered by 2008.
    Then do you agree that Sweden ordered 204 Gripens and received all of them by 2008?

    Quote Originally Posted by swerve View Post
    It therefore cannot be true that only 204 aircraft have been built, of which 67 have been delivered to foreign customers, 134 are in the Swedish air force, & 3 are or were test aircraft.
    If 204 built cannot be true, what is your number?

    How many Gripens have been delivered to all customers so far?

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