The PAK-FA Saga Episode VIII

[uss novice]

So how would you rate/compare the EW suites on the flankers (newer ones such as the Khbiny) Vs western counterparts esp. against threats such as S-300 variants?

USS.

[Teer]

YOu may have a point. RMS55 had mentioned how the massive zaslon couldn't burn through and detect the Su-34 (which employs the Khbiny EW suite) until it was ridiculously close

USS.

Depends on which Zaslon too - the early variants apparently had issues with jamming. And frankly, the original Zaslons are yesterdays tech - todays systems, including the Bars (which actually updates the tech) & Irbis-E will be far more resistant to jamming & have several anti jamming measures incorporated.

The other issue is what RSM pointed out - power based noise jamming @ such a level, is practically impossible for a small fighter sized platform to replicate, since there is only so much space and power. Nowadays, its a combination of high ERP and techniques generation.

Elettronica is pitching some very interesting gear to the IAF, perhaps thats best in the IAF thread.

[Trident]

The translation is posted above by medal, and that is the first picture released of NIIP's AESA (congratulations USS!!) click to enlarge- the T/R modules are clearly visible:

Attachment 175565

Interesting! Hard to tell whether it features tapered slot antenna elements, the lack of which represents one of the crucial shortcomings of Phazotron's Zhuk-A compared to Western AESAs, as far as I've been able to understand.

Definitely NOT a Bars/Irbis antenna, they would be gimballed rather than fixed in a slanted position and also much larger!

[Teer]

^^ Do you have any Irbis antennas pics which we can compare size wise.

Seems pretty much the same to me, plus it seems to have the usual hybrid phase shifter "sticks" visible from the sides which are a NIIP Bars/Irbis characteristic..

This isnt the entire radar, just the antenna so hence no gimbals etc.

Could be wrong though.

Also, note the two guys who are standing to on the left - they are the IRBIS-E designers.

[hexpop]

These guys are the chief director of NIIP and two chief engineers

[Teer]

Chief designers yes, but also the leads on the Irbis-E program. The Bars lead is Tamerlan Bekirbayev - he is not in this pic.

[uss novice]

OK gents, I think it is the NIIP AESA for certain. Admittedly it does have a resemblance to the irbis. But here is a comparison of the two images, what do you think?

IRBIS:




NIIP AESA for Pakfa, Su-30, MiG-31/35. Due credits to Igorr at his blog
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_mDvQ8xYRdS...h/P8261849.jpg




BTW, another v.interesting thing about this radar is that they are using mech scanning ala irbis
and bars to ensure a better fov.
Regards,
USS.

[haavarla]

Those transmitter/receivers are HUGE


If they comes with the improved noze reduction and anti radar jamming capabilities/software, they will rock!




Thanks

[Marcelosg]

If it's true, then the PAK-FA's nose section will probably be circular!?

[uss novice]

If it's true, then the PAK-FA's nose section will probably be circular!?

Not necessarily, they could v.well mean it for the flanker and fulcrum or fox hound.

USS.

[SOC]

OK gents, I think it is the NIIP AESA for certain. Admittedly it does have a resemblance to the irbis. But here is a comparison of the two images, what do you think?

OK, the AESA radar in the image above is not the one with the greenish border, it's the one partially seen in the background. The other one is Irbis, look at the name on the mounting.

[CayceG]

The sign in the background says that radar is an Irbis as well, though.

And it looks like the one in the background is for the Su-35... going by the sign.


I'm rather confused...

[Teer]

Look, I dont mean to rain on the parade here, but I still think we should wait for a better pic to see what NIIPs AESA design actually is.

USS,

Are you going by color?

If so, dont. Thats a yellow-gold clingfilm on the radar antenna which gives it the color.

Also, the size appears the same, contrast to the people standing beside it, including a lady.

The green band is just to protect the delicate innards of the antenna. The Bars has a 960 mm antenna iirc, the Irbis has 900 mm - which allows for mechanical slew movement in both elevation and azimuth (space constraint within radome).

Also, just remembered, the Irbis antenna, is based on the OSA (WASP) design which was a cheaper (less gain, less performance) than the Bars antenna, but which was significantly lighter (allowing for the Irbis-E gimbal movement).

Its supposed to be similar to the PESA antenna on the RBE-2, the RADANT design, if we go for comparisons. But actual specs may vary..

SOC,

The L Band AESA mentioned in the second picture, is actually the box shaped unit behind the sign. Its not clearly visible though.

The antenna behind the Irbis E is of NIIPs Zaslon.

http://aeroweb.lucia.it/~junap95/fig...es/mig31rd.jpg

This is how Zaslon looks without the clingfilm.

http://www.airshow.ru/expo/111/images/prod_777_250.jpg

As we can see, it looks remarkably similar to the photo we are all debating about, which is why I've been stating that its too early to tell what NIIPs AESA looks like.

Hope they show it at MAKS though!!!

[Trident]

The AESA referred to by the placard is infact the grey object showing in the bottom right corner, with the screwhead visible on top. Read the description about how it is meant to be installed in the wing leading edge...

[CayceG]

I'm not proficient in Russian. Does the placard say anything about it being USED in any current or future application? Will PAK FA have leading edge AESA radars?

[uss novice]

OK folks I admit it, its all my fault! Those images are from Maks 07 So ya, its the Irbis. The AESA is the little gray box looking thing meant to be installed in the wing (i think).

USS.

[hexpop]

AFAIK - PAK-FA will have a X-band AESA, a leading edge mounted L-band AESAs ....and some kind of Ku, or Ka band radar(s).

[SpudmanWP]

3 radars?

source?

[Teer]

3 radars?

source?

There is at least one news report referring to this with an interview featuring NIIP designers. I too recall reading it but cant seem to remember where the heck it was..

But would wait for more detailed information to emerge about the overall architecture.

[Teer]

The AESA referred to by the placard is infact the grey object showing in the bottom right corner, with the screwhead visible on top. Read the description about how it is meant to be installed in the wing leading edge...

Correct! I remember the L Band AESA module resembled this X Band one. Both the L Band & X Band modules were displayed by NIIP at the last MAKS.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_mDvQ8xYRdS...h/P8261852.jpg

(Credits: Igorr Djadan)

I think it goes without saying that NIIP can create and productionize an AESA radar, thanks to their experience & the funding from the Govt. & the commercial success they have had in mass production of ESA radars for India, Malaysia and Algeria & selling N001 variants worldwide (PRC, Venezuala, Indonesia....)

Phazatron, with a smaller technology base was able to develop the Zhuk AE prototype and work towards refining it.

What we should be actually debating about is the nature of the NIIP X Band AESA, ie whether it will have LPI or not, and any other features planned.

[medal64]

Russian "Stealth": in the worst traditions of sovkovyh


Taxpayers and potential customers still are not even shown plohonkuyu picture of the super-airplane. And so our Russian "stealth", like others, did not have any analogues secret development of the Russian "T-95", has already been the subject of numerous jokes. In the "advanced" okoloaviatsionnoy environment, any mention of the PAK FA is almost not do without wipe. therefore comes to the point of absurdity when the special editions are using pictures of amateur authors, their fantasies on themes of the fifth generation.

It is conducive to "improve the image of Russian weapons and dignitaries who regularly give many promises. "Fly in 2007 .. in 2008 ... to the Max, sure to fall ... ... in December ..."

And so more and more suspicions that the project is not all right - we have something to hide. Add fuel to the fire of many rumors and alleged leak of information from all kinds of "well-wishers."

They sincerely believe that the Su-27 and MiG-29 easily deal with any "Reptorom" and the "Eurofighter". But those who have at least a little bit, so to speak, "in the subject, very disappointed.

They remember the past with our other "super-aircraft, multi-functional fighter Mikoyanovsky size. About him say that this aircraft, superior to all the characteristics of the notorious S-22. Carefully protected from curious eyes, long hidden in the hangar. But when shown a disappointment to many was not the limit.

It turned out that the fifth-generation aircraft are issued a car, which has some characteristics consistent with aircraft of previous generations.So after only show the aircraft was again hidden, and no one else saw.

Do not want to believe that with the PAC is that something like this - certainly Suhovsky T-50 is the fifth generation ... or the fifth generation of minus.

In general, anything that relates to the history of Russian "stealth" occurs at the worst sovkovyh traditions. It was then that the photo of our newest machines first appeared in Western publications, and then we saw in the sky or on the pavement of Red Square.

Source: site "INFO-RM"
Author: Anton Losev
Published: 17.08.2009, 17:07
http://www.aviaport.ru/digest/2009/08/17/179381.html


He is rather annoyed and I think he is right

[Snow Monkey]

I think lacking any public information at this point,
it's premature to tout either PAK-FA's "superiority" or "inferiority".
Though of course I'd love to know all the details,
there certainly seems to be some security rationale for not revealing all info prematurely:
Chalking this up to "soviet" lineage (I presume that's the phrase being repeated) is a pointless, cheap shot.

All in all, I wouldn't be surprised if PAK-FA measures up quite well to F-22, and the apparent pursuit of non-X-Band sensors is clearly a promising way to go to negate F-22 (X-Band) "stealth". Of course, by the time PAK-FA is fielded in numbers, I think it's reasonable to expect a signifigant upgrade to F-22:
IRST would be an obvious start, as well as HMD: the bar never stays still.

[Stan hyd]

nm

[Teer]

Snow, given recent reports of how expensive and limited upgrades are to the original F-22's, I wonder what the upgrade path charted out for the 180 odd silver bullets is.

Stan,

Those pics were posted on this board several times previously.

[Griffon39]

Nevermind...

[Rodolfo]

Russian "Stealth": in the worst traditions of sovkovyh


Taxpayers and potential customers...

Just words. Today these words are as valid as PAK-FA fan-boy draws. Let us wait and see.

[Stan hyd]

sorry chaps. didnt realise. seemed new news on livefist

[Marcelosg]

Snow, given recent reports of how expensive and limited upgrades are to the original F-22's, I wonder what the upgrade path charted out for the 180 odd silver bullets is.

Stan,

Those pics were posted on this board several times previously.

According to this Site, the F-22A Raptor's upgrade package will consist:

"Upgrades:

On 5 January 2001, Raptor 4005 flew with the Block 3.0 software, which was the first combat-capable avionics version.

In June 2009, Increment 3.1 was tested at Edwards Air Force Base. This provided the F-22 a basic ground attack capability through Synthetic Aperture Radar mapping, Electronic Attack and the GBU-39 Small Diameter Bomb. The F-22 Raptor Increment 3.1 Modification Team with the 412th Test Wing received the Chief of Staff Team Excellence Award for upgrading 149 Raptors.

The next step will be Increment 3.2 with an advanced SDB capability and the ability to use the AIM-9X Sidewinder and AIM-120D AMRAAM missiles. However, the F-22 will still lack a helmet mounted cueing system and associated sensors to allow the aircraft to take advantage of the AIM-9X's high off-boresight capability. Defense Daily reported that the Joint Helmet Mounted Cueing System was deferred on the F-22 because of maintenance overhead. If this system is later implemented it will use the AIM-9X's own seeker as the off-boresight sensor to find targets.

Upgrading the first 183 jets to the 3.2 upgrade is estimated to cost $8 billion. In May 2009, Gen. Norton A. Schwartz and Air Force Secretary Michael B. Donley gave testimony to Congress that this would be paid for through the early retirement of legacy fighters. The retirement of 254 fighters over the next year will reduce the Air Force below the 2,250 fighter minimum requirement for national strategy.

Increment 3.2 is expected to be fielded in FY15 and it will also include the Multifunction Advanced Data Link that will tie together future U.S. penetration forces of stealth aircraft and unmanned platforms.

In July 2009 the USAF announced that three business jets had been deployed with the interim Battlefield Airborne Communications Node (BACN) to allow communication between F-22s and other platforms, until MADL is installed.

"The current F-22A modernization plan will result in 34 Block 20 aircraft used for test and training, 63 combat-coded Block 30s fielded with Increment 3.1, 83 combat-coded Block 35s fielded with Increment 3.2, and 3 Edwards AFB-test coded aircraft. Consideration is also being given to upgrade the 63 Block 30s to the most capable Block 35 configuration."

On 29 July 2009 the director of the Air National Guard asked for "60 to 70" of the F-22s for air sovereignty missions, but that these fighters would not need the full capabilities of the upgraded F-22s."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F-22_Raptor#Upgrades

[DJ.]

60-70 for ANG.... now which force exactly is there to threaten USA mainland that required 3-4 Raptor Squadrons.. ???

[sferrin]

60-70 for ANG.... now which force exactly is there to threaten USA mainland that required 3-4 Raptor Squadrons.. ???

Who ever said that's all they'd be used for?