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Thread: The PAK-FA Saga Episode VIII

  1. #421
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    I have come with bad message. Hearings about August, 16th have not proved to be true. PAK FA will show in the end of the year

  2. #422
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    Quote Originally Posted by QuadroFX View Post
    I have come with bad message. Hearings about August, 16th have not proved to be true. PAK FA will show in the end of the year
    Biggest reason of the delay can be funding!

    I couldn't understand, if it wouldn't fly at August 16, how would they demonstrate it to the world media? Static display on a runway, or a demonstration ceremony under the flying aircrafts? I think if they want to demonstrate this aircraft to the world media at the national airforce day it must be flying! If it's not ready to fly, its impossible to see it at August 16!

  3. #423
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    Quote Originally Posted by ink View Post
    I hope you're right but I would bet money you're not. And, yes, you can quote this post on the 19th.
    Hate to quote my own post... But when I'm right, I'm right.
    Regards, Ivan

  4. #424
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sens View Post
    Some are childish again. The PAK-FA is a paper plane till we will see the roll-out of the hardware.
    Again another quite correct statement. I can't for the life of me figure out why anyone would say it's not a paper plane.

  5. #425
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    Quote Originally Posted by pigeonracer View Post
    Again another quite correct statement. I can't for the life of me figure out why anyone would say it's not a paper plane.
    Because, numbnuts, it'll be Russia's 2nd all-digital aircraft (after SSJ-100) and the manufacture & final assembly of prototype(s) was viewed in person by PM Putin @ YG KnAAPO several months ago. Savvy?

    http://www.plm.automation.siemens.co...sourceId=13145

  6. #426
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    Quote Originally Posted by Otaku View Post
    Because, numbnuts, it'll be Russia's 2nd all-digital aircraft (after SSJ-100) and the manufacture & final assembly of prototype(s) was viewed in person by PM Putin @ YG KnAAPO several months ago. Savvy?

    http://www.plm.automation.siemens.co...sourceId=13145
    We do not know, what was shown to him.

    http://airbase.ru/hangar/planes/russ...x/mig-1.42.jpg

    At least there is no prototype at hand for an official roll-out right now.
    No double standards please. :diablo:

  7. #427
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    By August 12, 2009 - Russian Air Force Day - Russia will be flying a model airplane and the fifth generation in the same year, raise it in the air. It was reported on Friday, chief of Russia Air Force Colonel General Alexander Zelina.

    "I have confidence in this event, and I am pleased to report to the leadership of the military-industrial complex - highlighted head. - By August 12, 2009 we get a model airplane flying the fifth generation. He rises into the air in the same year."

    According to ITAR-TASS, Zelina said, "Work on the plane has gone according to plan, all tasks are performed. "Next year we should get the first three cars", - emphasized the general, noting that "all of them are able to build in a degree of readiness.

    http://www.vesti.ru/doc.html?id=237026

    It was reported last year.Lets wait and see!!!
    Last edited by medal64; 1st August 2009 at 21:27.

  8. #428
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    Quote Originally Posted by Otaku View Post
    Because, numbnuts, it'll be Russia's 2nd all-digital aircraft (after SSJ-100) and the manufacture & final assembly of prototype(s) was viewed in person by PM Putin @ YG KnAAPO several months ago. Savvy?

    http://www.plm.automation.siemens.co...sourceId=13145
    The fact that Putin was suppossedly shown the PAK-FA means nothing if you factor in how extremely dishonest (Polonium incident) and how extremely paranoid (Kursk rescue fiasco) Putin is, his word is next to worthless and Baghdad Bob strikes me as a more trustworthy person. If you are going by Putins word and trust the man well thats fine but given the mans appalling track record it only makes the whole saga of the PAK-FA extra suspicious to me.

  9. #429
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    Quote Originally Posted by medal64 View Post

    According to ITAR-TASS, Zelina said, "Work on the plane has gone according to plan, all tasks are performed. "Next year we should get the first three cars", - emphasized the general, noting that "all of them are able to build in a degree of readiness.

    http://www.vesti.ru/doc.html?id=237026

    It was reported last year.Lets wait and see!!!
    If I remember rightly stories of the same nature were banded about the year before that story and probably a year before that. Don't get your hopes up as a let down would seem inevitable.
    Last edited by pigeonracer; 2nd August 2009 at 15:30.

  10. #430
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    Quote Originally Posted by pigeonracer View Post
    The fact that Putin was suppossedly shown the PAK-FA means nothing if you factor in how extremely dishonest (Polonium incident) and how extremely paranoid (Kursk rescue fiasco) Putin is, his word is next to worthless and Baghdad Bob strikes me as a more trustworthy person. If you are going by Putins word and trust the man well thats fine but given the mans appalling track record it only makes the whole saga of the PAK-FA extra suspicious to me.
    Putin wasn't the source regarding his being shown the PAK-FA being assembled (see page 2 of this thread), so I fail to see what your opinion of the man has to do with anything regarding this thread.
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  11. #431
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    Quote Originally Posted by pigeonracer View Post
    If I remeber rightly stories of the same nature were banded about the year before that story and probably a year before that. Don't get your hopes up as a let down would seem inevitable.
    Im hopeless about to see this bird in August and also not sure about the december! Because as you know everything is about the money and now Russian economy is not so promising. Russia's military spending is fifth in the world after USA,China,France,Britain. As you know just USA and China has such a fifth gen. aircraft project! In my opinion if Russia didn't support this project specially its imposible to see it near future!

  12. #432
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    Quote Originally Posted by medal64 View Post
    Im hopeless about to see this bird in August and also not sure about the december! Because as you know everything is about the money and now Russian economy is not so promising. Russia's military spending is fifth in the world after USA,China,France,Britain. As you know just USA and China has such a fifth gen. aircraft project! In my opinion if Russia didn't support this project specially its imposible to see it near future!
    To built a prototype and do the roll-out is not the most demanding part, when it does come to the program cost of the PAK-FA.
    As long as nothing real is around to endanger the sales prospects of the Flanker-series the Russian behavior does make some sense.

  13. #433
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    Quote Originally Posted by pigeonracer View Post
    The fact that Putin was suppossedly shown the PAK-FA means nothing if you factor in how extremely dishonest (Polonium incident) and how extremely paranoid (Kursk rescue fiasco) Putin is, his word is next to worthless and Baghdad Bob strikes me as a more trustworthy person. If you are going by Putins word and trust the man well thats fine but given the mans appalling track record it only makes the whole saga of the PAK-FA extra suspicious to me.

    "However, at the plant believe that large-scale reductions KnAAPO rescued May visit Prime Minister Vladimir Putin, who showed the most secret development of Russia in recent years - the fifth generation multipurpose fighter PAK FA - to create it in the shops KnAAPO. It can be assumed that seen but not yet the finished product impressed the Premier, and he promised the company new orders.

    "After the visit of Vladimir Putin, we were told that he and Mikhail Pogosyan (Chapter aviaholdinga" Dry ", approx.) signed some agreement guaranteeing boot KnAAPO new products. However, this document has still not been seen. But there is a shift to increased rates tariff level, for which we fought all the time. Zavodskaya administration has decided to meet the team and from September will be made to recalculate it, "- said Paul Arslanov.

    But as the case with construction of the PAC FA - are still unknown. At KnAAPO flatly refused to discuss this topic - it had a subscription to withhold information containing state secrets. As the correspondent of "New Region" secret PAK FA is indeed strictly protected - for several years in the media do not trickled no one photo of this development, and its layout has never publicly demonstrated. Now the special variety of countries and simple avialyubiteli burned with curiosity, and the last cheat the interpretation of the look of the car. Judging by the majority of images, almost all artists compare with the Russian aircraft F-22 Raptor - features "American" guessed almost all the outline.

    Meanwhile, based on statements by government officials who promise to fly PAK FA in 2009, it can be assumed that the center's secret airplane is almost ready. This gives hope that the statement by Prime Minister Sergei Ivanov term sailplane PAK FA will be able to really try. However, whether there are working engines and avionics - the big question. At the same time aware that the draft budget-2009 funding for the development of the PAC FA were going to cut to 938.1 million rubles.


    Source: Information Agency «New Region»
    Published: 05.06.2009, 17:09"



    I think Putins visit was more on a general issue with the KNAAPO products and projects like SSJ-100, Su-35, upgrades on Su-27SM etc etc.
    Not just the PAK-FA..


    Oh, great move to draw in the Kursk acident in this discussion..



    Thanks

  14. #434
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sens View Post
    To built a prototype and do the roll-out is not the most demanding part, when it does come to the program cost of the PAK-FA.
    As long as nothing real is around to endanger the sales prospects of the Flanker-series the Russian behavior does make some sense.

    I don't know if Sukhoi is struggeling to secure a Contract on two regiments Su-35..
    If they get this Contract, then things look a little brighter for KNAAPOs order books.

    Anyway, i still think the major issue are the lack of quallified workers and the digitalization of all systems witch require a lot of new software.

    Totaly new software are one of the Key elements in designing and construction of PAK-FA.
    Not merely building the Airframe and engines, radar etc etc..



    Thanks
    Last edited by haavarla; 2nd August 2009 at 10:04.

  15. #435
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    Quote Originally Posted by pigeonracer View Post
    The fact that Putin was suppossedly shown the PAK-FA means nothing if you factor in how extremely dishonest (Polonium incident) and how extremely paranoid (Kursk rescue fiasco) Putin is, his word is next to worthless and Baghdad Bob strikes me as a more trustworthy person. If you are going by Putins word and trust the man well thats fine but given the mans appalling track record it only makes the whole saga of the PAK-FA extra suspicious to me.
    yeah ,what a nonsence putin was there because of talk about strike in the factories his number one priority ,he does care about his people!.... meanwhile in amerika peoples are having strong thoughts about presidents choise of beer from the dutch

    http://www.cbsnews.com/blogs/2009/07...y5196417.shtml


  16. #436
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    Quote Originally Posted by RPG type 7v View Post
    yeah ,what a nonsence putin was there because of talk about strike in the factories his number one priority ,he does care about his people!.... meanwhile in amerika peoples are having strong thoughts about presidents choise of beer from the dutch
    Whats America got to do with the PAK-FA?

  17. #437
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    What did the Kursk have to do with it?
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  18. #438
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    Quote Originally Posted by RPG type 7v View Post
    Hahaha...that was hilarious, thanks for the picture.

  19. #439
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    Quote Originally Posted by SOC View Post
    What did the Kursk have to do with it?
    It (the Kursk incident, or more accurately the rescue denials) highlights perfectly the absolute paranoia that Putin and co feel for the west in regards to anything military. Sacrificing their own people, letting them die all because the rescue crew were 'westerners' couldn't be any more paranoid. Help was offered multiple times at the highest levels only to be knocked back because of Putins intense paranoia.
    Then I referenced Putin again in releation to his awful track record with the truth as was seen during the poisoning of Alexander Litvinenko with polonium-210 that left a trail of breadcrumbs all the way back to Putin, radioactive breadcrumbs at that. Yet he lied and denied all knowledge.
    Those two traits; absolute paranoia and pathological lieing lead me not to trust anything that comes from any source in the Russian government and that applies to the PAK-FA.

  20. #440
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    Quote Originally Posted by pigeonracer View Post
    It (the Kursk incident, or more accurately the rescue denials) highlights perfectly the absolute paranoia that Putin and co feel for the west in regards to anything military. Sacrificing their own people, letting them die all because the rescue crew were 'westerners' couldn't be any more paranoid. Help was offered multiple times at the highest levels only to be knocked back because of Putins intense paranoia.
    Then I referenced Putin again in releation to his awful track record with the truth as was seen during the poisoning of Alexander Litvinenko with polonium-210 that left a trail of breadcrumbs all the way back to Putin, radioactive breadcrumbs at that. Yet he lied and denied all knowledge.
    Those two traits; absolute paranoia and pathological lieing lead me not to trust anything that comes from any source in the Russian government and that applies to the PAK-FA.
    Hmm, let me sum it up> Kursk rescue was a failure ---> logically, PAK-FA does not exist... There is some geniality in this weird connection..

    But I absolutely agree with you, Russian govt is not to be trusted. I only hope you treat your own govt's lies the same way. If for nothing else then because they have had a far further reaching impact than on an ex-KGB agent, few reporters and submarine sailors.

  21. #441
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    Quote:
    Originally Posted by pigeonracer
    It (the Kursk incident, or more accurately the rescue denials) highlights perfectly the absolute paranoia that Putin and co feel for the west in regards to anything military. Sacrificing their own people, letting them die all because the rescue crew were 'westerners' couldn't be any more paranoid. Help was offered multiple times at the highest levels only to be knocked back because of Putins intense paranoia.
    Then I referenced Putin again in releation to his awful track record with the truth as was seen during the poisoning of Alexander Litvinenko with polonium-210 that left a trail of breadcrumbs all the way back to Putin, radioactive breadcrumbs at that. Yet he lied and denied all knowledge.
    Those two traits; absolute paranoia and pathological lieing lead me not to trust anything that comes from any source in the Russian government and that applies to the PAK-FA.

    Hmm, let me sum it up> Kursk rescue was a failure ---> logically, PAK-FA does not exist... There is some geniality in this weird connection..

    But I absolutely agree with you, Russian govt is not to be trusted. I only hope you treat your own govt's lies the same way. If for nothing else then because they have had a far further reaching impact than on an ex-KGB agent, few reporters and submarine sailors.
    There are no weird connections. There are just some guys (i.e. pigeonracer) that have hyperbolic levels of Russophobia. They just try to argue in order to satisfy the phobia. Simple.

  22. #442
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rodolfo View Post
    There are no weird connections. There are just some guys (i.e. pigeonracer) that have hyperbolic levels of Russophobia. They just try to argue in order to satisfy the phobia. Simple.
    Why not, the SU was never in the lead about credibility. After some Glasnost that bad behavior did surface again. We have to differ between "political" truth by all sides and the freedom of the press. I agree, that the present optimistic claims of Lockheed Martin or that of Sukhoi are advertisement claims at first driven by patriotism.

  23. #443
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sens View Post
    Why not, the SU was never in the lead about credibility. After some Glasnost that bad behavior did surface again. We have to differ between "political" truth by all sides and the freedom of the press. I agree, that the present optimistic claims of Lockheed Martin or that of Sukhoi are advertisement claims at first driven by patriotism.
    What does the SU have to do with it?

  24. #444
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    edit: Just noticed: http://www.aviasalon.com/en/static/p...ights_2009.htm

    Best pilots of Russian Design Office centers will demonstrate aerobatic flights and sky acrobatics on new modern fighters of 4th and 5th generations, which are equipped with turbine-powered engines with changeable thrust vector.

    Lets hope for a demonstaration!

  25. #445
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    Quote Originally Posted by UAZ View Post
    What does the SU have to do with it?
    A behavior demanded in over 70 years will not change in a few years. Russia is left from the former SU mainly. Sukhoi and MiG did start in the SU as it did the MFI program.

  26. #446
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sens View Post
    A behavior demanded in over 70 years will not change in a few years. Russia is left from the former SU mainly. Sukhoi and MiG did start in the SU as it did the MFI program.
    Does it mean that every govt that keeps certain things a secret can be automatically categorized as oppressive autocratic regime?

    BTW, what exactly did we know about Boeing's Bird of Prey until the programme was terminated? Those pesky US autocrats !!

  27. #447
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sens View Post
    A behavior demanded in over 70 years will not change in a few years. Russia is left from the former SU mainly. Sukhoi and MiG did start in the SU as it did the MFI program.
    If what you are saying is true, then you should generalize that and say that the ex-Soviet/Warsaw pact nations like Poland, Estonia, Czech republic and some of the Germans have the same behaviour

    Also noteworthy is the behaviour of some posters (right here on this thread), they still have the urge to write something negative in every sentence that contains the word Russia or SU...old habits die hard (at least with some people).

    Back to topic.

    I am one of the skeptics about the revealing of the PAK-FA. I hope I am wrong, but I very much doubt we will see anything about the PAK-FA at MAKS-09. The Russians might not even disclose photos whenever it makes its first flight. They simply don't have to (the US did the same with the F-117).

    In case I am correct and nothing is disclosed, do you guys think we will have decent photos taken from US spy satellites? or maybe sketches based on sat-photos?

  28. #448
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    Suprise

    Fifth-generation aircraft entered service in the Russian Air Force in 2015


    By 2015, Russia adopted the Air Force received the fifth-generation aircraft, reported to head the Air Force Colonel General Alexander Zelina.

    "In the short term (by 2015) weapons system tactical aircraft the Air Force will have a run at the present time, armed with a fourth-generation aviation systems, aviation systems modernized generation 4 + and 4 + +, as well as promising fifth-generation aircraft systems," - said head.

    Zelina also said that "in the second half of 2009, the aircraft went on test flights."

    Speaking about the main characteristics of new aircraft, Zelina stated that "it will become a reality sverhmanevrennost, intellectualization high side, the circular information field, low visibility, vserakursny firing purposes."

    "Among the qualities of military aircraft should be noted multichannel use of weapons, the possibility of a simultaneous attack of several air targets and ground precision weapons, a powerful set of on-board defense, high efficiency and safety", - said Russian military aircraft head.

    Distinctive features of prospective aviation complex of new generation will versatility (ability to meet the challenges of defeat both air and ground targets in all weather and time of day); sverhmanevrennost (possibility to make controlled flight at low speeds and high angles of attack), low visibility in the optical, infrared and radar wavelengths, the ability to take off, and sit down, using parts of runway length of 300-400 meters.

    Combat aircraft of the new generation will be able to make long flights at supersonic speeds with multiple refueling in the air, have a new electronics and maximum automation of the flight, Interfax reports.

    Source: Newspaper «View»
    Published: 05.08.2009, 11:31

    Second source;

    Fifth-generation aircraft entered service VVS Russia until 2015

    Moscow.August 5. INTERFAX.RU - fifth-generation aircraft by 2015 will be armed with the Air Force of Russia, told reporters on Wednesday, head Air Force Colonel General Alexander Zelina. He also said that "in the second half of 2009, the aircraft went on test flights."
    Last edited by medal64; 5th August 2009 at 09:54.

  29. #449
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    Satellites can be fooled by not flying or having the jet outside when they're overhead. But, given the amount of press and prestige the program is getting, I'd bet we see something when the jet is revealed and flown. They are going to market a version to India after all, so it isn't going to remain a secret for long (meaning people will see it and take pictures). Ergo, no reason for an obnoxious and expensive secrecy campaign, really.

    Actually, I'd assume that if we hear nothing by the end of the year, then there is a decent chance that it flew and crashed. That, I can see trying to keep out of view. But the plane will probably be shown before long, it's already somewhat famous and well known. If they're going to publicise blatant START violations like the RS-24 and every single Bulava SLBM test, and even reveal the last big secret, the R-33S, then there's no reason to expect that the jet is going to be hidden for a long period like the F-117A. That was kept secret for far different reasons, and the public had little real knowledge of it for a long time anyway.
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    09:08 05/08/2009

    MOSCOW, August 5 - RIA Novosti. Fifth Generation Fighter Air Forces will be on the test flights in the second half of 2009, told journalists on Wednesday, Chief of the Russian Air Force Colonel General Alexander Zelina.

    "In the next few years Russia will receive the Air Force by the aviation complex, fully embodied the most advanced science and technology" - said head.

    Fifth-generation fighter aircraft the Air Force has the full title of "forward-looking set of front-line aviation Aircraft (PAK FA).The development of this complex is paying great attention to the Russian government, directing the Ministry of Defense, Air Force Command and United Aircraft Corporation.

    For PAK FA will be a reality sverhmanevrennost, intellectualization high side, the circular information field, low visibility, vserakursny firing purposes, "- said head.

    "Among the qualities of military aviation complex it must be noted, such as multichannel use of weapons, the possibility of a simultaneous attack of several air targets and ground precision weapons, a powerful set of on-board defense, high efficiency and safety", - said Zelina.

    According to the general, until the adoption of a set of fifth-generation fighter aircraft will be the basis of the type of fighter Su-27 and MiG-29 fighter-interceptor MiG-31B, aircraft Su-25 attack plane and aircraft-reconnaissance MiG-25Р, Su -24R.

    "The creation of the Su-27 fighters and MiG-29 can be regarded as the highest achievement of Russian aircraft. Inherent in these solutions provide a unique aircraft modernization capabilities that are already being implemented in such aircraft as the Su-27cm, and the MiG-29SMT," - noted head.

    According to his data, to the exodus of 2009 to the fighter Su-27cm, and the MiG-29SMT be some re-combatant forces.

    At the same time in these samples the famous story of combat fighter does not end, added Zelina.

    "Decision-Chief of the Air Force, after careful study of joint specialists Air Force fighters and developers to further enhance their combat capabilities, a decision on adopting in the coming years profoundly modernized, but essentially a new transition to the fifth generation fighter aircraft Su-35s and MiG - 35s ", - said the general.

    At the beginning of the next decade the Russian military will begin en masse to buy these aircraft, "he said.


    How many meanings of a statement can be I dont know but in my opinion another sources are more logical. Because we are at the eight month of the year and he could say "it will start test flights in 2009" not "it will be on the test flights at the second half of the 2009"!
    Last edited by medal64; 5th August 2009 at 10:55.

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