The PAK-FA Saga Episode VIII

[medal64]

I wonder if PAK-FA will be shown on August 16 to the media, why they won't display even a model at Maks?

In my opinion if they won't display anything about the PAK-FA at Maks-2009,waiting to see it on August 16 is a dream!

[talltower]

Seriously, do the Western lefthand fighter pilots get to choose witch side the control and trottle are placed??

I believe the throttle stick are always placed on the left side, i doesn't really matter if a pilot is left or right handed(center-stick vs right-stick).




Thanks

Maybe the PAK FA would have the side control stick like the two Gen 5 fighters in operational service today, the F-22 and F-35, or just retain the center stick as it does with the Su-35BM.

Personally, I'd prefer the side stick, because it's more comfy and ergonomic for my right arm anyway.

[haavarla]

Maybe the PAK FA would have the side control stick like the two Gen 5 fighters in operational service today, the F-22 and F-35, or just retain the center stick as it does with the Su-35BM.

Personally, I'd prefer the side stick, because it's more comfy and ergonomic for my right arm anyway.

Well, isn't it easier to reach/operate the multi displays if you have a senter stick rather than a right hand stick?


And i think you are able to rest your right hand in your lap when operating a senter control stick?




Thanks

[milmascaras]

Sukhoi/HAL FGFA a Indian Stealth Fighter

The Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft (FGFA) being jointly developed by India and Russia will look substantially different for the two countries. While the Russian version will be a single-pilot fighter, the Indian variant will have a twin-seat configuration based on its operational doctrine which calls for greater radius of combat operations. The program is initiated to develop a fifth generation fighter aircraft to fill a role similar to that of Lockheed Martin’s F-22 Raptor and the F-35 Lightning II, the world’s first fifth-generation fighter jets.

“The Indian FGFA is significantly different from the Russian aircraft because a second pilot means the addition of another dimension, development of wings and control surfaces,” said Ashok Baweja, chairman of the Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL), which is developing the aircraft along with Russia’s Sukhoi design bureau.

Speaking to media persons at the eighth Indo-Russian Inter-Governmental Commission on Military-Technical Cooperation (IRIGC), Baweja said that both sides had moved closer towards identifying the key areas of participation in the Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft Programme (FGFA) for which both countries had signed a joint agreement in 2007. India would bring into play its expertise in composites, lightweight high-strength materials that significantly bring down the weight of an aeronautical platform.

The Russian aircraft is thus called because it is a successor to virtually every fourth and 4.5 generation fighter aircraft like the MiG-29 and Su-30 MKI in the inventories of both countries. It has been dubbed the ‘Raptorski’ for its similarity to the US F-22 Raptor that entered squadron service on December 2005

The first prototype of the Sukhoi Design Bureau’s PAK-FA ‘T-50′ fighter aircraft is set to fly in Russia next year. “We are in the process of defining what part of the contract to give to the Indian production agencies,” said Alexey Fedorov, president of the United Aircraft Corporation, the umbrella organization of Russian fixed-wing aircraft manufacturers. Fedorov said that the process of identifying the participation of Indian partners in the FGFA would be completed by the year-end or in the shortest possible time.

According to Baweja, it features stealth, or a drastic reduction in the aircraft’s radar cross-section or ’signature’, and the ability to ’super cruise’ or jet engines that fly stealthily without engaging noisy afterburners even at supersonic speeds, embedded weapons with the capability to engage multiple ground, sea and air targets and seamless communication between the fighter, other aircraft and ground stations. Baweja said that the first prototype of the FGFA was to fly next year with the AL-37FU engine. He said he would want an engine that had 15 to 20 per cent more growth than this engine in the final aircraft configuration. The FGFA is to enter squadron service by 2015 and will replace at least three classes of aircraft in the IAF

The joint-venture borrows heavily from the success of the Brahmos project but seems fated to repeat its story. By the 1990s, Russia, the world’s only operator of supersonic surface-to-surface missiles, had already perfected the Yakhont missile but lacked the funds to pursue its development. Indian stepped in with the finance in 1998 and the missile was re-launched as the Brahmos.

Designs for the PAK-FA have already been frozen by the Sukhoi design bureau, which means that Indian aircraft engineers have already missed out on the critical knowledge curve of aircraft design. Also, the unequal status of the Indian and Russian aviation industries means India will be the junior partner contributing very little except finance. “So if we have missed out on the design phase, we have to analyze the cost-benefits of acquiring only super cruise and stealth technology for $ 10 billion,” asks Air Vice Marshal Kak.

Decks were cleared for India to jointly develop and produce the fifth generation fighter aircraft with Russia, with New Delhi making the “final choice” on the matter and Moscow saying the work on signing contracts on the deal could begin soon. Observing that Russia had started developing the warplane about three years ago, visiting Deputy Premier and Defence Minister Sergei B Ivanov said “some time back, India showed interest in joining this project. It took them (India) some time to scrutinize the various options. “Now, India has informed us that a final choice has been made. We can (now) open up contractual work for Indian accession to the project,” Ivanov told reporters at a joint press conference with his Indian counterpart A K Antony, after signing four documents. Although interaction has begun on the joint development and production of fifth generation fighter jet, the actual signing of agreements could take some more time.The two sides inked an inter-governmental agreement and a general contract for licensed production of the AL-37FU engines.The fifth generation fighter is based on the Sukhoi fighter and is expected to take its maiden flight in 2012 and inducted by 2015.

Source: http://www.defenceaviation.com/2008/...h-fighter.html

your pakfa is great see my MiG-29

[talltower]

your pakfa is great see my MiG-29

There is one inaccuracy I have spotted: The engine bays are too closely spaced together. MiG-29s have a gap in between the engines for providing central lift.

BTW, here's more news on the FGFA, but you should really question this one, as the source, Rupee News is pro-Pakistan.

Indo Russian bickering & Disputes delay FGFA to 2017 stretch target!

While the company line says that everything is just hunky dory and fine. The fact remains that all is not well on the Western front; the price of the Russian aircraft carriers keep on rising exponentially even after signed contracts define the delivery dates; there are huge disappointments on the transfer of technology and Russia is developing “joint-plane” by itself; there are humongous differences on what the FGFA should look like; should the plane be singe or double seater.

The Soviet Union launched fifth-generation fighter programs in the 1980s. By the mid-1990s, the Mikoyan Design Bureau developed the Project 1.44 warplane, also known as the Mikoyan-Gurevich MiG MFI. The Sukhoi Design Bureau came up with the S-37 Berkut experimental supersonic forward swept-wing jet fighter. The S-37 aircraft was an advanced technology demonstration prototype not intended to be mass-produced as a fighter. However, due to the lack of funding, the Project 1.44 aircraft was not streamlined and never entered production either.

By the late 1990s, it became apparent that existing fifth-generation fighter projects were becoming obsolete, that their production versions would be inferior to the brand new American F-22 Raptor air superiority fighter, and that even if finalized the air force would receive such warplanes a decade too late. (U.S. secret weapon: F-22-A Raptor in action. RIA Novosti video)

The project was eventually entrusted to Sukhoi, which refers to it internally as the T-50.

Various maiden flight and supply deadlines were discussed from the very beginning. The T-50 was eventually scheduled to perform its first flight somewhere between 2008 and 2010. In late 2008, the commander of the Russian air force announced that the plane would first take off in August 2009. RIA Novosti, where this article was first published. Russia begins designs for new fighter jet

Mikhail Pogosyan, head of the Sukhoi Design Bureau, confirmed the information. “The progress that has been made by now suggests that we can begin the flight tests within one year,” Mr Pogosyan said. Several versions of the aircraft are being discussed, including a two-seater model, and a carrier-based aircraft.

In the summer of 2008, officials said the T-50 design had been approved and prototype aircraft blueprints sent to the Komsomolsk-on-Amur aircraft-building plant (KNAAPO) in Russia’s Far East, where jet fighters will be produced. The plant is currently building three prototype T-50 fighters for future tests, due to last five to six years, while mass production will not get underway before 2015.

Although T-50 specifications have not been disclosed, it is known that prototypes and the first production aircraft will be fitted with 117S (upgraded AL-31) turbofan engines from Russian aircraft engine manufacturer Saturn. As a result, the T-50 will be a heavy fighter with a takeoff weight of over 30 metric tons and will have the same dimensions as the well-known Sukhoi Su-27 Flanker. The Tikhomirov Institute of Instrument Design, which had developed the Irbis radar for the Su-35BM Flanker, is now working on the T-50 radar. The new fighter’s radar and fire-control system will be designs on the basis of the Su-35BM’s systems. By Ilya Kramnik, RIA Novosti,

The declining Indo-Russian relationship. Delhi scrambles for new arms sources but they come with strings. India and Russia signed an agreement in October 2007 for the so called joint development of the FGFA. The first flight is scheduled for 2009. The Russians have already decided on the design of the plane and are moving full speed ahead with its development. The tag-along Hindustan Avionics will probably be handed over a kit in 2009 to claim that it has actually participated in the development of the aircraft. Technically the joint development is accurate. HAL has funded part of the $4 billion in development cost. A spokesman derisively joked about it saying “actually the Indian “innovation” is pretty much limited to designing new tri colored Indian flag designs on Russian planes and placing the decals on the right spots.”

BANGALORE: … the defence establishments of both the countries are willing to bury their differences over the fifth generation fighter aircraft (FGFA) and get the project kickstarted by the middle of this year.

The FGFA study programme which was initiated between India and Russia in 2007, has been a slow-starter as the Air Forces of the two countries have had differences over the aircraft project.

While the Indian Air Force wants a two-seat version to meet the requirements of India’s air superiority policy, the Russian Air Force wants a single- seat version.

“There have been differences between the two Air Forces as both have specific requirements.

These issues will be sorted out soon and by the middle of the year we expect to start work so that the aircraft is inducted by 2017,” M Fakruddin, Director-Corporate Planning and Marketing, Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) told to The New Indian Express. Indo-Russian FGFA project set to take off. Indian Express. Hemanth C S, Last Updated : 03 Feb 2009 11:40:56 AM IST

The project is way behind schedule and the Russians are proposing test flights this year–without any input from HAL or Delhi. When Moscow needed hard currency it bent over backwards to appease Hindustan Aeronautics. Now flush with Petro-Dollars the Russian Aviation industry is treating the Indians like poor cousins.The March 2009 test flights will display a single seater plane which was the Russian preference. By using that excuse that the HAL facilities are not ready, they will ram the Russian design down the throat of Delhi and then try to ship the stripped down export version of the plane by 2017.

The plane is supposedly stealth– as stealth as Russian planes can be.

A general contract had been signed in December last year between HAL and Rosoboron Export for the design and development of the aircraft by the Sukhoi design bureau and the Indian aviation major.

The fifth generation fighter is expected to feature high manoeuvrability and stealth in order to ensure air superiority and precision in destroying ground and sea targets.

Lockheed Martin’s F-22 Raptor and the F-35 Lightning II are among a few of the fifth generation fighter aircraft in the world.

MRO facility on hold

HAL’s plans to set up an aerospace MRO (maintenance, repair and overhauling) facility at the HAL airport has been put on hold due to the economic recession.

“The MRO facility at the HAL airport is on the backburner, as we do not see it feasible at this point of time to have one. The rise in fuel prices, the decrease in passenger traffic and the economic slowdown have all impacted the business. We have decided to wait for some time,” said Fakruddin.

HAL had been mulling over the idea of starting a MRO facility at the HAL airport after the commercial flight operations shifted to Bengaluru International Airport last year.Indo-Russian FGFA project set to take off. Indian Express. Hemanth C S, Last Updated : 03 Feb 2009 11:40:56 AM IST

Why doesn’t Russia transfer Flanker Su-30 development technology to India?

India has history of failed aircraft design and production. the LCA was a colossal failure and the Tejas engine is a fiasco unparalleled in world avionics history. “Then, of course, there is the indigenous ‘Tejas’ Light Combat Aircraft programme, which was launched in 1983 to replace the ageing MiGs. But it’s running years behind schedule, with the first squadron likely to be inducted only by 2011-2012 now” (Hindustan Times). Some are averse to calling it a failure, but 25 years for developing a plane is a development cycle that most analysts consider a bit too long–especially when there is nothing to show for it. Indian missile production was also something that has a huge “F” written on it. Trail of tears and failure: Indian missiles.

India is reportedly more interested in the two-seater version, while Russia, with its developed ground and air fight control system, plans to concentrate on the one-seater fighter. There is a possibility that the Indian version of the Russian fighter will be lighter and smaller, and thus cheaper.

There have been reports in the past few months about the new fighter’s exterior design. Judging by photographs of the prototype available online, the T-50 will resemble the American F-22, a fact easily explained by similar parameters on their technical specifications. However, it is yet undecided whether the model will eventually be used as a prototype.

As of now, one can only make general conclusions on what kind of a machine it will be, based on the known parameters of their technical specifications. The new fighter should be:

- multifunctional – capable of successfully hitting air, ground and water targets alike, including small and moving ones, in any weather or time of the day, against an enemy equipped with high-precision weapons;

- super-maneuverable – capable of performing controlled flight at low velocity and large angle of attack;

- largely undetectable by optical, infrared or radio radars; and

- capable of taking off and landing on short runways.

However, the term “fifth-generation” covers more than just the fighters. It also embodies a whole range of equipment to ensure advanced combat capabilities, including weapons, radio-electronic equipment, ground- and air-based supply and control systems.

These elements are also under development, although not all projects are proceeding with equal speed and success. Nevertheless, they are all crucial to the program as a whole. Without them, the new fighter will remain a very expensive toy incapable of boosting the combat capabilities of the air force. By Ilya Kramnik, RIA Novosti, where this article was first published. Russia begins designs for new fighter jet Judging by photographs of the prototype available online, the T-50 will resemble the American F-22.

Source:http://rupeenews.com/2009/02/11/indo...tretch-target/

[Otaku]

Well, isn't it easier to reach/operate the multi displays if you have a senter stick rather than a right hand stick?

Not necessarily

[medal64]

Nice post OtakuThanks...

[medal64]

PAK-FA weapons formation!


Attachment 175196


http://forum.sukhoi.ru/showthread.php?t=47703&page=142

[milmascaras]

There is one inaccuracy I have spotted: The engine bays are too closely spaced together. MiG-29s have a gap in between the engines for providing central lift.

BTW, here's more news on the FGFA, but you should really question this one, as the source, Rupee News is pro-Pakistan.

Indo Russian bickering & Disputes delay FGFA to 2017 stretch target!

While the company line says that everything is just hunky dory and fine. The fact remains that all is not well on the Western front; the price of the Russian aircraft carriers keep on rising exponentially even after signed contracts define the delivery dates; there are huge disappointments on the transfer of technology and Russia is developing “joint-plane” by itself; there are humongous differences on what the FGFA should look like; should the plane be singe or double seater.

The Soviet Union launched fifth-generation fighter programs in the 1980s. By the mid-1990s, the Mikoyan Design Bureau developed the Project 1.44 warplane, also known as the Mikoyan-Gurevich MiG MFI. The Sukhoi Design Bureau came up with the S-37 Berkut experimental supersonic forward swept-wing jet fighter. The S-37 aircraft was an advanced technology demonstration prototype not intended to be mass-produced as a fighter. However, due to the lack of funding, the Project 1.44 aircraft was not streamlined and never entered production either.

By the late 1990s, it became apparent that existing fifth-generation fighter projects were becoming obsolete, that their production versions would be inferior to the brand new American F-22 Raptor air superiority fighter, and that even if finalized the air force would receive such warplanes a decade too late. (U.S. secret weapon: F-22-A Raptor in action. RIA Novosti video)

The project was eventually entrusted to Sukhoi, which refers to it internally as the T-50.

Various maiden flight and supply deadlines were discussed from the very beginning. The T-50 was eventually scheduled to perform its first flight somewhere between 2008 and 2010. In late 2008, the commander of the Russian air force announced that the plane would first take off in August 2009. RIA Novosti, where this article was first published. Russia begins designs for new fighter jet

Mikhail Pogosyan, head of the Sukhoi Design Bureau, confirmed the information. “The progress that has been made by now suggests that we can begin the flight tests within one year,” Mr Pogosyan said. Several versions of the aircraft are being discussed, including a two-seater model, and a carrier-based aircraft.

In the summer of 2008, officials said the T-50 design had been approved and prototype aircraft blueprints sent to the Komsomolsk-on-Amur aircraft-building plant (KNAAPO) in Russia’s Far East, where jet fighters will be produced. The plant is currently building three prototype T-50 fighters for future tests, due to last five to six years, while mass production will not get underway before 2015.

Although T-50 specifications have not been disclosed, it is known that prototypes and the first production aircraft will be fitted with 117S (upgraded AL-31) turbofan engines from Russian aircraft engine manufacturer Saturn. As a result, the T-50 will be a heavy fighter with a takeoff weight of over 30 metric tons and will have the same dimensions as the well-known Sukhoi Su-27 Flanker. The Tikhomirov Institute of Instrument Design, which had developed the Irbis radar for the Su-35BM Flanker, is now working on the T-50 radar. The new fighter’s radar and fire-control system will be designs on the basis of the Su-35BM’s systems. By Ilya Kramnik, RIA Novosti,

The declining Indo-Russian relationship. Delhi scrambles for new arms sources but they come with strings. India and Russia signed an agreement in October 2007 for the so called joint development of the FGFA. The first flight is scheduled for 2009. The Russians have already decided on the design of the plane and are moving full speed ahead with its development. The tag-along Hindustan Avionics will probably be handed over a kit in 2009 to claim that it has actually participated in the development of the aircraft. Technically the joint development is accurate. HAL has funded part of the $4 billion in development cost. A spokesman derisively joked about it saying “actually the Indian “innovation” is pretty much limited to designing new tri colored Indian flag designs on Russian planes and placing the decals on the right spots.”

BANGALORE: … the defence establishments of both the countries are willing to bury their differences over the fifth generation fighter aircraft (FGFA) and get the project kickstarted by the middle of this year.

The FGFA study programme which was initiated between India and Russia in 2007, has been a slow-starter as the Air Forces of the two countries have had differences over the aircraft project.

While the Indian Air Force wants a two-seat version to meet the requirements of India’s air superiority policy, the Russian Air Force wants a single- seat version.

“There have been differences between the two Air Forces as both have specific requirements.

These issues will be sorted out soon and by the middle of the year we expect to start work so that the aircraft is inducted by 2017,” M Fakruddin, Director-Corporate Planning and Marketing, Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) told to The New Indian Express. Indo-Russian FGFA project set to take off. Indian Express. Hemanth C S, Last Updated : 03 Feb 2009 11:40:56 AM IST

The project is way behind schedule and the Russians are proposing test flights this year–without any input from HAL or Delhi. When Moscow needed hard currency it bent over backwards to appease Hindustan Aeronautics. Now flush with Petro-Dollars the Russian Aviation industry is treating the Indians like poor cousins.The March 2009 test flights will display a single seater plane which was the Russian preference. By using that excuse that the HAL facilities are not ready, they will ram the Russian design down the throat of Delhi and then try to ship the stripped down export version of the plane by 2017.

The plane is supposedly stealth– as stealth as Russian planes can be.

A general contract had been signed in December last year between HAL and Rosoboron Export for the design and development of the aircraft by the Sukhoi design bureau and the Indian aviation major.

The fifth generation fighter is expected to feature high manoeuvrability and stealth in order to ensure air superiority and precision in destroying ground and sea targets.

Lockheed Martin’s F-22 Raptor and the F-35 Lightning II are among a few of the fifth generation fighter aircraft in the world.

MRO facility on hold

HAL’s plans to set up an aerospace MRO (maintenance, repair and overhauling) facility at the HAL airport has been put on hold due to the economic recession.

“The MRO facility at the HAL airport is on the backburner, as we do not see it feasible at this point of time to have one. The rise in fuel prices, the decrease in passenger traffic and the economic slowdown have all impacted the business. We have decided to wait for some time,” said Fakruddin.

HAL had been mulling over the idea of starting a MRO facility at the HAL airport after the commercial flight operations shifted to Bengaluru International Airport last year.Indo-Russian FGFA project set to take off. Indian Express. Hemanth C S, Last Updated : 03 Feb 2009 11:40:56 AM IST

Why doesn’t Russia transfer Flanker Su-30 development technology to India?

India has history of failed aircraft design and production. the LCA was a colossal failure and the Tejas engine is a fiasco unparalleled in world avionics history. “Then, of course, there is the indigenous ‘Tejas’ Light Combat Aircraft programme, which was launched in 1983 to replace the ageing MiGs. But it’s running years behind schedule, with the first squadron likely to be inducted only by 2011-2012 now” (Hindustan Times). Some are averse to calling it a failure, but 25 years for developing a plane is a development cycle that most analysts consider a bit too long–especially when there is nothing to show for it. Indian missile production was also something that has a huge “F” written on it. Trail of tears and failure: Indian missiles.

India is reportedly more interested in the two-seater version, while Russia, with its developed ground and air fight control system, plans to concentrate on the one-seater fighter. There is a possibility that the Indian version of the Russian fighter will be lighter and smaller, and thus cheaper.

There have been reports in the past few months about the new fighter’s exterior design. Judging by photographs of the prototype available online, the T-50 will resemble the American F-22, a fact easily explained by similar parameters on their technical specifications. However, it is yet undecided whether the model will eventually be used as a prototype.

As of now, one can only make general conclusions on what kind of a machine it will be, based on the known parameters of their technical specifications. The new fighter should be:

- multifunctional – capable of successfully hitting air, ground and water targets alike, including small and moving ones, in any weather or time of the day, against an enemy equipped with high-precision weapons;

- super-maneuverable – capable of performing controlled flight at low velocity and large angle of attack;

- largely undetectable by optical, infrared or radio radars; and

- capable of taking off and landing on short runways.

However, the term “fifth-generation” covers more than just the fighters. It also embodies a whole range of equipment to ensure advanced combat capabilities, including weapons, radio-electronic equipment, ground- and air-based supply and control systems.

These elements are also under development, although not all projects are proceeding with equal speed and success. Nevertheless, they are all crucial to the program as a whole. Without them, the new fighter will remain a very expensive toy incapable of boosting the combat capabilities of the air force. By Ilya Kramnik, RIA Novosti, where this article was first published. Russia begins designs for new fighter jet Judging by photographs of the prototype available online, the T-50 will resemble the American F-22.

Source:http://rupeenews.com/2009/02/11/indo...tretch-target/

here i leave you the early PAK FA granpa

[SpudmanWP]

My favorite two lines

Lockheed Martin’s F-22 Raptor and the F-35 Lightning II are among a few of the fifth generation fighter aircraft in the world.

um, and the others would be who?

- largely undetectable by optical, infrared or radio radars; and

Wow, the first invisible jet Wonder Woman called and wants her jet back.

[medal64]

Russia and India have identified the characteristics of fifth generation fighter


Russia and India have identified the tactical-technical characteristics of prospective fifth-generation fighter, which will be developed jointly by the two countries. Currently, the parties shall consult on the allocation of work. As reported by RIA Novosti, said Director of the "Rosoboronexport" Alexander Mikheyev in an interview with the publication of "arms" to be published next week.

Mikheyev said that the work comes within the framework of an intergovernmental protocol, which stipulates the basic principles of relationships, including sharing of work, mode of financing and delivery dates. He also commented on the possible competition in the market of arms from the U.S. fifth generation fighter F-35: "Considering that the world market for combat aircraft is limited, of course, we see F-35 as a competitor and a very serious competitor."

Nevertheless, according to Mikheeva, the United States, and Russia is the traditional market segments, and the rivalry between the two countries in the dramatic form is not expressed. Russian forward fighter, as the head of "Rosoboronexport", will not assign the F-35 on the tactical and technical characteristics, with substantially lower cost.

Recall that the development of forward-looking set of front-line aviation aircraft (PAK FA) is a number of domestic design bureau in the late 1980's. He must replace the MiG-29 and Su-27.The first flight of the machine, tentatively to be held in 2009.

Russia also signed an agreement with India that the two countries will jointly develop a fifth generation fighter aircraft.The Russian Air Force plans to adopt a single option, and the Indian Air Force looked at the double.

Source: news agency "Lenta.Ru"
Published: 30.07.2009, 15:33

[SOC]

um, and the others would be who?

You're actually asking that question in the PAK-FA thread? That'd be one of them, the other would potentially be China's XXJ, but there isn't any substantial information about that aircraft to know whether they are going for a full LO design like the other three are.

[SpudmanWP]

You're actually asking that question in the PAK-FA thread? That'd be one of them, the other would potentially be China's XXJ, but there isn't any substantial information about that aircraft to know whether they are going for a full LO design like the other three are.

Until it rolls out for the world to see, then it is just a paper airplane.

A 5th gen AC is first and foremost a VLO airframe combined with fully integrated avionics and an advanced AESA radar.

We have yet to see anything but paper airplanes from Russia, China, or anyone else for that matter with regards to these requirements.

[echonine]

Until it rolls out for the world to see, then it is just a paper airplane.

A 5th gen AC is first and foremost a VLO airframe combined with fully integrated avionics and an advanced AESA radar.

We have yet to see anything but paper airplanes from Russia, China, or anyone else for that matter with regards to these requirements.

Take your avatar's advice. . .

The Russians don't owe you jack sh1t - they are fine if you think they have a "paper airplane" - they will reveal one of its THREE prototypes when the time is right.

[SpudmanWP]

When it enters production, then it can be counted. Otherwise, I'd count the YF-23 and X32.

[pigeonracer]

When it enters production, then it can be counted. Otherwise, I'd count the YF-23 and X32.

Spudman has it correct as this is how it works. Like it or not the PAK-FA IS ONLY a paper plane at this moment in time (especially so when there is no proof it exists beyond drawings!)

[medal64]

Rosoboronexport" razletaetsya World

"Rosoboronexport" will expand the market for sales of military aircraft from Latin America, Libya and Croatia, even with Vietnam. Compete, especially in the segment of heavy aircraft, which will soon be Su-35, "Rosoboronexport" is quite capable.But it would be easier to negotiate when the hands will be the main trump card - the exact timing of the development and production of fifth generation aircraft.

"Rosoboronexport" announced their plans to increase exports of military aircraft. In the near future, the Group intends to significantly expand the geography of its sales, said zamgendirektora "Rosoboronexport" Alexander Mikheyev in an interview with the publication of "arms", which will be released next week.

Exports of Russian military aviation engineering third year remain at about the same level. This year, the export of military aircraft of $ 2.6 billion experts believe that this is quite a good result. Major markets have long been divided, with many contracts in force until now, concluded a few years ago. "Recently, we have consistently sell for 40 aircraft per year. The Americans about the same size, even smaller ones," - explained the expert Center for Analysis of Strategies and Technologies (ACT) Konstantin Makienko. In doing so, the sale of each new combat aircraft will generate approximately $ 100 million aircraft itself is worth about $ 40 million, the rest gives Aerodromnaya logistics, expensive aircraft destruction (missiles and bombs), spare parts, training of pilots.

Now the list of consumers of domestic military aircraft includes India, China, Algeria, Malaysia and Venezuela. But the supply of fighter jets Su-30MKM Malaysia to the same end in this year. Ends the contract and the Algerian Air Force. Основной потребитель Китай уже неплохо укомплектован. The main consumer China is already well staffed.

Air Fleet Celestial has a 300 aircraft Su-27 and Su-30 Russian-made. "The Chinese are now occupied the fence, they need a more modern aircraft," - said Makienko.

This is a heavy aircraft Su-35.So far, only the aircraft is being tested and will be released in the series, and therefore the export, not before 2012.But now "Rosoboronexport" pillar location."Today, as a result of technical advice to the Chinese side had proposed collaboration on the Su-35 in the form of purchases of aircraft ready to follow the organization of licensed production in China", - says plans Mikheyev. Consultations on this issue will likely continue at the upcoming air show in August at Zhukovsky.

But the absolute guarantee for the Chinese order no. Apparently, this uncertainty was once the chief of his partner, forced "Rosoboronexport" to seek new markets.

In the Middle East can supply MiG-29SMT in Egypt, a new batch of these machines can be purchased Yemen, said Mikheyev.

Also, "Rosoboronexport" hopes to increase the presence of Russian military fighter aircraft to Latin America, which considers as promising the Venezuelan and Ecuadorian markets. Venezuela will sooner or later, the regiment of Su-35 (24 aircraft)," - said Makienko. In his view, is not taken into account Brazil: the country could "shoot" and buy from 12 to 24 aircraft.

In addition, the "Rosoboronexport" hoping for a breakthrough on the Libyan market. In fact, the aviation component of country's air force is based on Russian and Soviet technology. "The pilots and engineers and technicians were trained in Russian and Soviet universities. The tactics of warfare based on the use of our aircraft. Libya today - this is one of the leading North African countries with good financial opportunities that allow it to plan the acquisition of a major technology," - says Mikheev.Another point is that the Libyans - a very demanding and selective purchases of IWT.Despite the fact that Libya, as the Mikheev, showing keen interest in the MiG-35, Su-35, the latest shock attack helicopters, air defense systems, experts believe that global procurement, as in the past, Libya exercise will not be . According to Makienko, it can be ordered from the "Rosoboronexport" new planes for about $ 2 billion

In the "Rosoboronexport" perfectly aware that the current range, in fact, has already exhausted itself.For full competition with the same Americans need new advantages. It is no coincidence, says Mikheev, "in 2020 and further focus will shift to the promotion of emerging today aircraft Su-35, MiG-35, MiG-29M/M2 in the future - the fifth-generation aircraft."

"If the Su-35 will be fast, but it is an interim aircraft between the present and future models of the fifth generation fighter aircraft, the heavy air, we really will be all good - explains Makienko. - In this market we now have everything that can and will be even growth potential. " Successful implementation of the project Su-35 will enable the "Rosoboronexport" to offer the market a product whose performance surpasses all created so far. As soon as the "dry" will complete the work on Su-35, a company with a head plunge into the most ambitious project to create the fifth-generation aircraft. Creating a fifth generation fighter aircraft valued at U.S. $ 12-14 billion of its main Unlike predecessors - all available information is analyzed and a computer issued to a pilot in the form of tips.

And if everything goes as promised in the "dry", the export option can be offered to the world market after 2015. "I think the real term supply fifth-generation aircraft - in 2020 - said Makienko. - The American experience shows - from the first flight of the prototype and delivery of the aircraft in the series, even with adequate financing usually requires 10 years.Much earlier on the world market will be an American fighter JSF, which will be the main competitor of the Russian fighter.

Here is a MiG-35 (a new modification of the MiG-29) "Mikheyev said that the chances for victory in the Indian tender MiG-35 is quite high. But the division of Indian contract with its aircraft could intervene French Rafale, Swedish Grippen, American F-16, Eurofighter, - said Makienko. Source Gazety.Ru "in" dry "adds:" Do not forget: the negotiations on the sale of military aviation in general arhislozhnaya thing.Here the role of a million things: traditional country, the Air Force preference previously concluded contracts, policies, oil and gas issues, and even color seller.

Source: Site «Gazeta.Ru»
Автор: Author: Andrey Kovalevsky
Published: 31.07.2009, 07:40

[flex297]

Spudman has it correct as this is how it works. Like it or not the PAK-FA IS ONLY a paper plane at this moment in time (especially so when there is no proof it exists beyond drawings!)

Your or Spudman's knowledge decides NOTHING about whether something is a paper project or isn't. Russians won't reveal PAK-FA until it flies and Chinese won't reveal J-XX until it is close to series and some spotter catches the thing flying over test track at 8000ft+. It has always been that way and it does not seem to change, so what's the big fuzz?

BTW, there are no known drawings of the PAK-FA, so technically, according to your criteria it isn't even a paper project yet.

[SpudmanWP]

I am sure that somewhere in Russia there is a Su engineer with a napkin and some crayons...

[wilhelm]

When it enters production, then it can be counted. Otherwise, I'd count the YF-23 and X32.

Is the F-35 in production yet?

[SpudmanWP]

Yes, LRIP

[wilhelm]

Spudman has it correct as this is how it works. Like it or not the PAK-FA IS ONLY a paper plane at this moment in time (especially so when there is no proof it exists beyond drawings!)

JonJames, the F-22 didn't exist before it flew either?

The JSF programme didn't exist either before the F-35 was chosen either?

Are you reiterating, as you've done in the past, that there is no such thing as the PAK-FA?

No drawings have been released yet either BTW.

[flex297]

I am sure that somewhere in Russia there is a Su engineer with a napkin and some crayons...

There surely was some Skunks Works engineer with a napkin back in early 80s, yet not a single drawing of the F-117 ever leaked out before it was revealed.. Or take Chinese WZ-10 attack helo, the first glimpse of the thing was after Chinese have already flown two/three prototypes...

My question again - what's the big fuzz around PAK-FA? Russians have decided to keep it secret, it's their way to do things, what do you or Jon James have to say in here?

[SpudmanWP]

My point was to the article's claim that there were more 5th gen AC besides the F-22 and F-35. A tech demonstrator/prototype does not a fighter make.

Considering that Russia has been working on 5th gen since the 1980's and has yet to have an operational fighter, I hope you can understand our skepticism.

While I do knowledge that PAK-FA may be a tech demonstrator, I doubt that it will be IOC within 5-10 years as some have claimed.

Question:

If Russia has already acknowledged PAK-FA's existence and set a FF schedule for this year (since move to next year), why not show it off to the public?

[Sens]

Some are childish again. The PAK-FA is a paper plane till we will see the roll-out of the hardware. The first example is a prototype like the YF-22 and will show the general layout at first. With that at hand we can start some guessing about the future capabilities of that.
At the moment we do not even have serious drawings like that below.
http://www.aircraftdesign.com/atf_ro...-11_raymer.jpg
Just claims of people, which are intrested to have money to develop the PAK-FA. As long as nothing has to be payed by the own money, the related claims are unlimited too. The present problems and cost rise of the F-22/F-35 do show, that the PAK-FA will have a similar share of that.

[wilhelm]

My point was to the article's claim that there were more 5th gen AC besides the F-22 and F-35.

Considering that Russia has been working on 5th gen since the 1980's and has yet to have an operational fighter, I hope you can understand our skepticism.

Spudman, you ruin your point when you make statements like this. Russia has not been working on a 5th generation fighter since the 1980's.

That was the Soviet Union.

A completely different political entity.

When the Soviet Union collapsed, it underwent an almost total financial collapse.

Over a protracted period of time.

Requirements changed from being part of an empire, of almost 300million souls, with the aim of projecting power, to a nation, of just under 150 million, with a more defensive posture. You should know all of this surely?

Granted though, I'm sure some elements of the previous Russian design houses 5th generation submissions no doubt have been taken on board.

[haavarla]

SpudmanWP;1441126]My point was to the article's claim that there were more 5th gen AC besides the F-22 and F-35. A tech demonstrator/prototype does not a fighter make.

Considering that Russia has been working on 5th gen since the 1980's and has yet to have an operational fighter, I hope you can understand our skepticism.

Eh, i was under the impression that the Russian PAK-FA started back in 2002?

There was some earlier project, but that i believe was made by the companies without any spesific DoD State order.
Like those demonstators Su-47, Mig1.44 ...

While I do knowledge that PAK-FA may be a tech demonstrator, I doubt that it will be IOC within 5-10 years as some have claimed.

Why excectly?

Question:

If Russia has already acknowledged PAK-FA's existence and set a FF schedule for this year (since move to next year), why not show it off to the public?

Are there not a MAKS 2009 in August?

http://www.aviasalon.com/en/static/p...ights_2009.htm

"Best pilots of Russian Design Office centers will demonstrate aerobatic flights and sky acrobatics on new modern fighters of 4th and 5th generations, which are equipped with turbine-powered engines with changeable thrust vector."


Perhaps they show a prototype, perhaps not..


Thanks

[SpudmanWP]

Yes, I understand that the Soviet Union is not the same as Russia. I did serve in West Germany, so I am well aware of the difference.

When the USSR fell, the programs and the data they contained still lived on at the design centers.

So it's first flights will be aerobatic maneuvers??? This just give more weight to the ridiculous press coverage the PAK-FA gets. Very vague info and sometimes blatantly wrong. How many times has the FF for PAK-FA been pushed back?

As to why I think at least 5-10 years to IOC, simple.
They have already stated that the PAK-FA, as it stands now, will not have the final radar, avionics, or engines.

The F-35 will take from 2006 to 2013 (a model) to complete it's flight testing schedule and produce enough units to achieve IOC. Since the PAK-FA does not even have it's final components, it will likely take longer.

btw, if the PAK-FA is to fly without it's final components, then why have they delayed the FF for so many years?

Don't get me wrong, I hope PAK-FA does fly this year and I hope it looks like a capable aircraft.

That will ensure increased F-35 sales across the globe.

[Sens]

Eh, i was under the impression that the Russian PAK-FA started back in 2002?

There was some earlier project, but that i believe was made by the companies without any spesific DoD State order.
Like those demonstators Su-47, Mig1.44 ...



Why excectly?




Are there not a MAKS 2009 in August?

http://www.aviasalon.com/en/static/p...ights_2009.htm

"Best pilots of Russian Design Office centers will demonstrate aerobatic flights and sky acrobatics on new modern fighters of 4th and 5th generations, which are equipped with turbine-powered engines with changeable thrust vector."


Perhaps they show a prototype, perhaps not..


Thanks

Which did not went behind some flight hours. Started in SU-times already to peter out as prototypes in present Russia. I am sure that many items of the PAK-FA to come were tested within other aircraft as it was done with the F-22 too. But the real thing is never the sum of all items. The related problems will show up with the real prototypes only. I am sure that the Russians will have drawn some lessons from the mistakes of LM, EADS or Dassault f.e.. But Russia will have its share of problems from its aviation industry. Just the MiG-29 design was close to the later production run over a decade of development. First flight in 1977 and accepted into service 1984.

[wilhelm]

Yes, I understand that the Soviet Union is not the same as Russia. I did serve in West Germany, so I am well aware of the difference.

When the USSR fell, the programs and the data they contained still lived on at the design centers.

So it's first flights will be aerobatic maneuvers??? This just give more weight to the ridiculous press coverage the PAK-FA gets. Very vague info and sometimes blatantly wrong. How many times has the FF for PAK-FA been pushed back?

As to why I think at least 5-10 years to IOC, simple.
They have already stated that the PAK-FA, as it stands now, will not have the final radar, avionics, or engines.

The F-35 will take from 2006 to 2013 (a model) to complete it's flight testing schedule and produce enough units to achieve IOC. Since the PAK-FA does not even have it's final components, it will likely take longer.

btw, if the PAK-FA is to fly without it's final components, then why have they delayed the FF for so many years?

Don't get me wrong, I hope PAK-FA does fly this year and I hope it looks like a capable aircraft.

That will ensure increased F-35 sales across the globe.

I agree that certainly the previous programme's data would have been kept alive, but the internal requirement, as issued by the Russian Air Force, most likely is quite different to any of the previous programmes. The original engine being a case in point. Also, the funds available to any such PAK-FA programme is going to be less than what was available to the design bureau's at the end of the Cold War. Requirements have changed from Soviet times, when Yakovlev, Mig, and Sukhoi all had funded programmes. The upper end of these programmes would be too expensive or specialised to effectively compete on the "open" () market today.

I'd tend to agree with you in regard to IOC. I'm not aware of the status of the various sub-systems and their progress, so I'll not comment on that.

The Soviet, and now Russian design bureau's do have a history of different types of prototypes for different functions, so the first PAK-FA will probably be an aerodynamic prototype first, ala the Mig 1.44. This may also be the cause of various "lost in translation" news articles, as you have pointed out above. Not everybody speaks English as a first language, therefor I've always tried to "read between the lines" of such articles or statements. I feel it would be beneficial to you too, perhaps. That is not to say the subsystems can't rapidly be integrated. I guess it's just different methodologies.

I also hope the beast flies this year, but for the simple reason of me being an aviation technology enthusiast and not anything to do with the F-35.