Rafale News V

[Scooter]

Scooter, at that time there was a very strong israeli lobby in france just after the embargo (even among the highest ranks of the french army) and many military hardwares like military boats or aircrafts (the entire designs plans) were delivered to israel sometimes with the use of clandestine operations with support of high ranking french officers...For the military boat delivery for instance...

Israel had full technical support of dassault to design the israeli variants of tghe mirage.

Remember that Marcel Dassault was a jew and survived the Holocaust during WW2 and was part of the french resistance. Shimon Perez was well known of Marcel Dassault at that time. So Dassault had very good ties with israel.

Personally, I have no doubt that France aided Israel or at least certain faction with in France did.........Regardless, I was just looking for something more concrete (i.e. source)..........Trust me if I made a similar "American" claim. Several Members would be all over me in a "New York Minute"..........

[Scooter]

Neither are the U.S.: http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/sho...&postcount=443


"The U.S. Pacific Command said in July that U.S. policymakers saw no pressing need to sell advanced arms to Taiwan."


They don't decide by whether the recipient needs the capability, but whether it suits their own plans, combining their own political and financial interests. Same goes for the French government. And for any other government out there too. All of 'em just a bunch of gray cats, with nary a black or white one to be ever seen.

Hardly................The US by treaty is obligated to help defend Taiwan. Yet, the US does not want to Arm Taiwan to such a extent that China feels threatened by Taiwan. Which, could lead to a War that all parties don't want. So, the US (and France) always walk a tie rope as it pertains to suppling weapons to Taiwan. Enough to deter China yet not to many to threaten China. Really, Taiwan is a extreme case..........

[arthuro]

Scooter :

a Tv report of the clandestine exfiltation from cherbourg of the french built corvette under umbargo with the help of some french officers aclose to israel and the mossad :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jiP1gw3npfw

[J-20 Hotdog]

Personally, I have no doubt that France aided Israel or at least certain faction with in France did.........Regardless, I was just looking for something more concrete (i.e. source)..........Trust me if I made a similar "American" claim. Several Members would be all over me in a "New York Minute"..........

your source is given
http://www.acig.org/artman/publish/article_274.shtml

skip the pretty pictures and read the actual text, near the bottom.

[obligatory]

the US does not want to Arm Taiwan to such a extent that China feels threatened by Taiwan.

China fear Taiwan is gonna invade/attack/[insert threat] ?
gimme a friggin break...
rolleyesmilie

And

The US by treaty is obligated to help defend Taiwan.

According to the Hague Conventions of 1907, the date of October 25, 1945 can only be interpreted as the beginning of the military occupation of Taiwan. Military occupation is conducted under "military government," and the United States has delegated the military occupation of Taiwan to the ROC. United States Military Government (USMG) in Taiwan has begun as of October 25, 1945.

For this reason, the Taiwanese are entitled to hold US national (non-citizen) passports.

I believe selected Taiwanese along with US personnel will be evacuated prior to a Chinese takeover, just like in the retreat from Vietnam.
http://www.taiwanadvice.com/pressconference.htm

[swerve]

Are you saying you have a source. That states France provided Atar Engines to Israel. Against its own embargo..........

Only rumours, but they're quite convincing rumours, that Israel got parts, as well as Mirage V drawings, from France. One of the problems with building a jet engine is the metallurgy. Having the plans isn't enough.

[Satorian]

the US does not want to Arm Taiwan to such a extent that China feels threatened by Taiwan

To the extent that China would feel threatened by Taiwan? That's rich. And by "rich" I mean "denial".

[Jackonicko]

There's a post on PPRuNe: It reads:

"When it comes to anti-French, anti-UK, anti-USA "popular antics" I wish that people would educate theirselves.
xxx
About France, and white flags...?
(1) Remember World War I (1914-1918) - The French fought valiantly.
(2) World War II (1939-1945) - yes, they surrendered in June 1940... but their "Resistance" against Nazis was the most effective of Western Europe. They bought havoc to their railroads tracks and bridges used for Nazi logistics. They helped thousands of downed aircrews to escape/return to UK.
(3) Their armed forces took active part to 1944 D Day for the liberation of France.
(4) They received very little help in Indochina (1954). Was it an excuse for US to make their Vietnam War ten years later...?
(5) Yet they took part as NATO member, to the Korean War (1950-1953). France was to the side of UK, for the Suez Canal (1958).
(6) Asking help again (1958) for Algeria (then a French Metropole Province) they received NO help, paving the way for DeGaulle's anti-US attitude.
(7) If DeGaulle policies had continued, UK would never been part of EU.
(8) The French always liked Americans, at worst they question US politics. I think UK does it too.
(9) Sarkozy is strongly pro-US, pro-UK and pro-NATO politician. Their forces are in Afghanistan NOW.
xxx
So criticize France... Shows you to be poorly informed about that nation.
They still put flowers to the military cemeteries in Flanders, and Normandy.
And yes, I like French cheeses and French wines...
xxx"

The French are a funny lot, sometimes, and many of them don't much like the English (massive rivalry, just a hint of an inferiority complex), and they aren't much good at Rugby. But it's a grand country, and they're a great people, and they deserve a good deal more respect and thanks than some of the witless posters here give them credit for.

[Satorian]

But it's a grand country, and they're a great people, and they deserve a good deal more respect and thanks than some of the witless posters here give them credit for.

Absolutely agreed!

[Nicolas10]

(massive rivalry, just a hint of an inferiority complex)

Haha you wish

You're just jealouse because we get all the girls :diablo:

[Satorian]

many of them don't much like the English (massive rivalry, just a hint of an inferiority complex)

Well, the French also have a massive rivalry with the Germans, and the Germans with the English, and the Germans with other Germans, and French with other French, and English with other English.

Or, as it was said in a Simpsons episode:

Groundskeeper Willie:	It won't last. Brothers and sisters
			are natural enemies! Like Englishmen
			and Scots! Or Welshmen and Scots! Or
			Japanese and Scots! Or Scots and other
			Scots! Damn Scots! They ruined Scotland!

Principal Skinner: 	You Scots sure are a contentious people.

Groundskeeper Willie:	You just made an enemy for life!

You know, I think "Brothers and sisters are natural enemies!" contains two truths regarding Europe. We are brothers and sisters, and because we want to feel just a bit different, we are in constant competition and struggle to make ourselves appear a bit different from everyone else with nationalist idiosyncracies. Doesn't change the fact that we are still brothers and sisters.

[swerve]

There's a post on PPRuNe: It reads:

"...
They still put flowers to the military cemeteries in Flanders, and Normandy.... xxx"

Seen that. Once stopped for lunch beside a little country church while cycling around Normandy, & there was a plaque on the wall, placed there by the municipality, commemorating several British soldiers who had died at that spot, liberating that village - and expressing thanks for their courage & sacrifice. Meticulously cared for: polished, vegetation kept well clear of it, etc. And just over the wall, in the churchyard, were the graves of the soldiers, all in a row. Maybe the Commonwealth War Graves Commission was responsible for them being so well tended, but given the state of the French memorial, I wouldn't have been surprised if it was the locals.

I've generally been treated with courtesy, & more often than not great friendliness, in France. The only real exceptions have been in some of the most overloaded tourist traps of Paris.

[djcross]

At long last, Rafale will fly for NATO.

Welcome back France!

http://www.europeanvoice.com/article...ato/64252.aspx

[Satorian]

At long last, Rafale will fly for NATO.

Welcome back France!

http://www.europeanvoice.com/article...ato/64252.aspx

Does this have some immediate consequences for the Rafale? Will anything about the plane be adapted to NATO standards? Will more US weapons be integrated?

It'd be awesome if so!

[MisterQ]

Hopefully this should end talk of an EU military

[Satorian]

Hopefully this should end talk of an EU military

Short term: Perhaps.
Mid term: Perhaps.
Long term: No.


CFSP is one of the three funding columns of the Maastricht contract and ESDP has been getting stronger. Considering that we have a European Defense Agency since 2004, I would expect the European Armed Forces at some point. Just a matter of time. Wait five or ten years.

And it's very good thing in my opinion.

[Scooter]

Vive La France...........


About time.......

[TMor]

Will anything about the plane be adapted to NATO standards?

What, on the plane, isn't adapted to NATO standards ?

Will more US weapons be integrated?

The priority is to fund the 90kN engine.
Do you realize that the Meteor integration has been accepted (if UAE order the plane) ?

Rafale F3 will have, by 2011 :
-Mica EM and IR with all modes (LOAL/LOBL, inertial + datalink) ;
-Exocet ;
-AASM with IIR ;
-Reco NG ;
-ASMP-A ;
-faster integration of US weapons ;
-Damocles ;
-all the modes for RBE-2 (PESA) ;
(F2 :
-AASM GPS (unique "small" stand-off missile) ;
-Scalp EG ;
-full OSF ;
-full DDM ;
-GBU-12/22 ;
-full sensor fusion (spectra, osf, rbe-2, Mica IR, link16) ;

Rafale has secured (for 2012) :
-Improved OSF ;
-AESA ;
-Improved missile warner ;
-M88-2 upgraded (CGP pack) ;

If the deal with UAE is signed :
-Meteor ;
-90kN engine ;



Works are ongoing for :
-68mm rockets ;
-GBU-24 ;
-laser guided AASM (and maybe anti-radiation) ;


It still lacks a 90kN though it's clearly feasible, within 3 years, and a helmet mounted sight.

[Satorian]

What, on the plane, isn't adapted to NATO standards ?

I don't know. That is why I'm asking.

The priority is to fund the 90kN engine.
Do you realize that the Meteor integration has been accepted (if UAE order the plane) ?

Rafale F3 will have, by 2011 :
-Mica EM and IR with all modes (LOAL/LOBL, inertial + datalink) ;
-Exocet ;
-AASM with IIR ;
-Reco NG ;
-ASMP-A ;
-faster integration of US weapons ;
-Damocles ;
-all the modes for RBE-2 (PESA) ;
(F2 :
-AASM GPS (unique "small" stand-off missile) ;
-Scalp EG ;
-full OSF ;
-full DDM ;
-GBU-12/22 ;
-full sensor fusion (spectra, osf, rbe-2, Mica IR, link16) ;

Rafale has secured (for 2012) :
-Improved OSF ;
-AESA ;
-Improved missile warner ;
-M88-2 upgraded (CGP pack) ;

If the deal with UAE is signed :
-Meteor ;
-90kN engine ;



Works are ongoing for :
-68mm rockets ;
-GBU-24 ;
-laser guided AASM (and maybe anti-radiation) ;

Most of the things you mentioned here aren't very interesting from the perspective of NATO interoperability though. Some don't relate to the question at all. I specifically mentioned US weapons because they are the de facto standard in employment and would be most prolific in a NATO-led theater. I wondered whether integration of some baseline weaponry (AMRAAM, JDAM, LGB GBUs) could be part of a NATO integration effort.

[TMor]

-faster integration of US weapons ;

Dassault is building US-weapons-ready-wiring Rafale.

The question is "will they allow us to integrate their weapons on Rafale ?" (In Korea, no).

[flex297]

The French are a funny lot, sometimes, and many of them don't much like the English (massive rivalry, just a hint of an inferiority complex), and they aren't much good at Rugby. But it's a grand country, and they're a great people, and they deserve a good deal more respect and thanks than some of the witless posters here give them credit for.

+1
French have my deepest sympathy.
I am pretty pleased with the recent direction of their politics (coming closer to USA is a good thing, too)

[c-seven]

There's a post on PPRuNe: It reads:

"When it comes to anti-French, anti-UK, anti-USA "popular antics" I wish that people would educate theirselves.
xxx
About France, and white flags...?
(1) Remember World War I (1914-1918) - The French fought valiantly.
(2) World War II (1939-1945) - yes, they surrendered in June 1940... but their "Resistance" against Nazis was the most effective of Western Europe. They bought havoc to their railroads tracks and bridges used for Nazi logistics. They helped thousands of downed aircrews to escape/return to UK.
(3) Their armed forces took active part to 1944 D Day for the liberation of France.
(4) They received very little help in Indochina (1954). Was it an excuse for US to make their Vietnam War ten years later...?
(5) Yet they took part as NATO member, to the Korean War (1950-1953). France was to the side of UK, for the Suez Canal (1958).
(6) Asking help again (1958) for Algeria (then a French Metropole Province) they received NO help, paving the way for DeGaulle's anti-US attitude.
(7) If DeGaulle policies had continued, UK would never been part of EU.
(8) The French always liked Americans, at worst they question US politics. I think UK does it too.
(9) Sarkozy is strongly pro-US, pro-UK and pro-NATO politician. Their forces are in Afghanistan NOW.
xxx
So criticize France... Shows you to be poorly informed about that nation.
They still put flowers to the military cemeteries in Flanders, and Normandy.
And yes, I like French cheeses and French wines...
xxx"

Mode off topic ON.

Not 100% correct.

(2) They completely f*cked-up their campaign in May 1940 actually. Everything went wrong (even luck...). After what should have they done? Lay on the road to stop the panzers?
However the fights of June are amazing in their extent, when the brits were already actually away that's it (that's probably the reason why those fights are massivally ignored by them). A link for those who want to know more about the huge fights of beginning of June...
http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums...ighlight=aisne

And the French haven't surrendered in June 1940. They've been forced to agree an armistice with very unfavourable conditions (like the Germans in november 1918). All right that doesn't make such a difference but for a military it does. Nevertheless a part of France and the Empire wasn't under german hand.

The resistance has actually been very active after the D-Day and relativally silent before. Because all our resistance have been designed, organized, driven from London (De Gaulle) to come out of the wood after the D-Day (and the famous poem of Baudelaire on the BBC). No wonder that everybody was resistant after the D-Day (that makes grin some idiots): it was designed to be that way.

(3) Their armed forces took active part to 1944 D Day for the liberation of France.

The most significant participation of Free France is in Italy which was the 2nd front on the west don't forget, and the most important one with 400,000 top notch Germans there (with those 400000 in France, the allies would have never landed). Free France it was 150000 troops there, incredibly tough troops who probably made the break in the Gustav line according to Marshall Kisserling as well as General Clark (forget Monte Cassino: everything was done and said when the Germans retreated)
They were 500000 in January 1945 and 1.5 million in May.
Before that the French probably saved the ass of the Brits in North Africa:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Bir_Hakeim

and they aren't much good at Rugby

We'll re-talk about it Sunday

Off topic OFF (sorry)

You can go back to your usual Rafale discussion and switch off the TV

Edit: to remind we are on a aviation forum and make a soft transition back to the subject:

NORMANDIE NIEMEN - Нормандия-Неман





This Free French squadron can clame 273 confirmed kills, 36 probable, the 2nd most victorious Russian fighters unit.

Some brave people definitally found every oportunity they could find to fight.

[snafu352]

The French are a funny lot, sometimes, and many of them don't much like the English (massive rivalry, just a hint of an inferiority complex), and they aren't much good at Rugby. But it's a grand country, and they're a great people, and they deserve a good deal more respect and thanks than some of the witless posters here give them credit for.

Well said.

[arthuro]

rafale for koweit article :

Deputy Prime Minister of Kuwait confirms interest in the Rafale

Friday 13 March 2009 / 18h14

PARIS (AFP) - Deputy Prime Minister and Minister of Defense of Kuwait, Sheikh Jaber Mubarak Al-Hamad Al-Sabah, confirmed Friday the interest of his country for the French fighter Rafale, after an interview with President Nicolas Sarkozy to the Elysée.
"The Rafale aircraft are excellent but the decision (to order) up to the Kuwaiti armed forces. We'd love to have in our armed forces," said Sheikh Jaber to the press.
"The facilities are excellent, the technicians returned Kuwaiti admiring" of their visit to a French base where French military equipment have been submitted, he added. During a tour of several Gulf states, including Kuwait, on 11 and 12 February, Nicolas Sarkozy said that France had initiated discussions for the possible purchase by Kuwait from 14 to 28 copies of the plane versatile fighter built by Dassault.
The Head of State had set the deadline of these discussions "at the end of the year" 2009. The Rafale, which equips the French Air Force has never been exported. Dassault has opened negotiations to try to sell it to several countries, including Libya and the United Arab Emirates. He also responded to a call in Switzerland, India and Brazil and has worked in Greece.

http://www.easybourse.com/bourse-act...0121725-633683

[GlobalPress]

The French are a funny lot, sometimes, and many of them don't much like the English (massive rivalry, just a hint of an inferiority complex), and they aren't much good at Rugby. But it's a grand country, and they're a great people, and they deserve a good deal more respect and thanks than some of the witless posters here give them credit for.

if i look at the amount of obsessed newspaper articles to bash on each country about the other, i would say that the british got a inferiority complex, and that the french for centuries doesn't look across the channel, its closer to the reality!

as about Rugby, uhmmm! lol

i don't know where these coments are doing on a rafale tread!

Jack is missing arguments to make him looklike smart, we are used to this tricks to gether somes pundits!

[GlobalPress]

+1
French have my deepest sympathy.
I am pretty pleased with the recent direction of their politics (coming closer to USA is a good thing, too)

France never went far away to the US, it seems that even the Yanks have been getting the rid of Bush and his clique, the brit as poodles got even not the choice accept saudies menaces putting the UK justice to zero, so the bush administration, though!

[TMor]

GlobalPress,

The nice message by Jack may have been intended to make him look smart, but your answers make you look like a troll.

Next time, be carefull, talk about the airplane instead of .... .

[Jackonicko]

It was a simple statement of the truth, as I see it, posted in exasperation at the dim-witted, xenophobic, anti-French nonsense posted by some of the more stupid forum members. (There are clearly folk who are as witlessly anti-French as GlobalPress is stupidly anti-English).

What it's doing on a Rafale thread is that it's an answer to the stupid, offensive, brainless remark from Larry that: "The French are indeed spineless (it is a national characteristic)."

I'm often (wrongly) accused of being anti-Rafale and anti-French. I'm neither of those things, in fact, but even a Rafale sceptic like me has no sympathy with that kind of nonsense.

There's a lot of bad blood between the English and the French, but a lot of common history too (much of it forged as allies in common struggles against tyranny). Fundamentally we're friends and neighbours, even though the French may be jealous of our aircraft and beer, and while we may envy French cheese and wine!

And I have to say that I rather enjoyed the Rugby........:diablo:

[Sintra]

And I have to say that I rather enjoyed the Rugby........:diablo:

Jack

I am quite sure that most of our French coleagues have a preference for football...
http://www.football.co.uk/england/ca...e_262291.shtml

[Nicolas10]

...even though the French may be jealous of our aircraft and beer, and while we may envy French cheese and wine!

Beers = Belgium
Aircrafts = France

I guess we can envy you the monty pythons and moustaches: http://www.thechap.net/content/section_news/raf.html