Rafale News V

[Snow Monkey]

Those intermediate range missiles like Mica and Derby, that give infrared (in this case Python) and active radar options are a lot more interesting, especially for lighter aircraft. A pitty that ASRAAM has not got a radar seeker - ASRAAM would be a very interesting missile for the export version of the F-35.

Mica IR & EM seekers already exist/ are in service, and would simply need certification (as would be the case for a new radar seeker for ASRAAM) - Since it's MBDA doing it all, reinventing their own wheel multiple times over seems pretty absurd, as well as cost-ineffective and slowing the soonest economically viable block upgrade to the radar seeker - more users of Mica EM should mean sooner upgrading of it's radar, vs. pretending MICA EM doesn't exist so you can call a MBDA missile British instead of French.

Note I also feel Dassault should arrange to have Iris-T certified for Rafale if they care about exports at all. Being signifigantly cheaper than Mica, having a mix of Iris-T and Mica and Meteor/BVR would seem to be a much more cost-effective option. Brazil now being involved in Denel's BVRAAM Darter probably means they'll want to integrate that solution for whatever fighter they purchase... Just because France was able to get MICA to cover a broad role within their development budget doesn't mean it's the best solution for everyone.

[Scooter]

Taiwan (ROC) ordered 60 Mirage 2000-5 and 960 MICA AAMs in 1990s, and after around 10 years of service, more than 90% of MICA AAMs have reached their own life-span.

And when Taiwan asked France for the necessary refurbishment and upgrading for Mirage 2000-5 and MICA AAMs this year, French government simply refused and set a military ban to Taiwan without any explanation.

What a great missile, and what a great post-sale service........

Yet, many would claim France is a more reliable arms supplier than the US? Further, that the French (among others) have less strings................Funny, on how the facts don't back up such claims.

[arthuro]

To sell the Rafale to Emirates, Paris forced to finance a new version

By Jean Guisnel

http://www.lepoint.fr/actualites-mon...1648/0/324199; jsessionid = 41DD524F06EDA7BE409D84238D5FFDB4

In June 2008, the United Arab Emirates announced their intention to purchase 63 French fighter aircraft Rafale F3, for six billion. Immediately, a communiqué from the Elysée welcomed this announcement very political, and negotiations began with tough Emirates. Who want to put the price for these aircraft, but provided they are delivered with unaffordable options that do not exist yet.

As a first step, it was learned that the Emirates demanded a resumption of French aircraft in which they have already past ten years, a sixty Mirage 2000-9, the most developed of the last fighter built by Dassault monoréacteur Aviation. But Nicolas Sarkozy himself rejected by defense counsel, an assumption that we talked about, namely the acquisition of these aircraft by the French Air Force. This event is no longer valid, the government has created a structure of "hive" that will purchase the aircraft, and then resell to foreign customers. Who? It's a little problem. In any case, the manufacturer Dassault Aviation said he was not concerned by this operation, which involves the State alone. Which does moderate the refusal of the manufacturer to participate in the resale of these devices, and has not yet finalized the agreement with the UAE on their recovery. For what price? Between 1.5 and 2.3 billion euros, according to sources close to the negotiations. If we compare this amount to six billion euros raised for the sale of the sixty-three Rafale F3, the recovery will be at least a quarter of the selling price. This is only a small problem, along with other ...

Engine and radar to be upgraded

The difficulties posed by this sale in the UAE include two major components of the aircraft. Its engine, and its radar. The engine, first: the Rafale F3 is equipped with two M88-2 produced by the engine manufacturer SNECMA, whose main characteristic is their thrust of 7.5 tonnes. The Emirates in turn require a more powerful version of a surge of 9 tons, which then bring the performance of the M88 engine from the F/A-18 E / F Super Hornet Boeing, the F414-GE-400 General Electric, 10 tonnes of thrust. Long SNECMA wanted to be financed by the state a version of 9 tonnes of M88, the M88-3, designed to meet customers wishing to enhance the export capacity of anti-aircraft Rafale. But this project had been refused, and since Paris does not fund it for its own air force will have to put the Emirates hands in their pockets. Invoice: 800 million. This requirement has its reasons for Abu Dhabi, which defends a small territory, and preparing to face one day Iran, the Rafale should be primarily an air superiority aircraft. A source close to the GIE Rafale, which brings together Dassault (cell), Thales (radar and electronic board) and SNECMA (reactors), a little twisted nose and stresses that "the ideal", Paris should have taken charge this development, thus supporting the export of an aircraft that is difficult to sell. But well-informed source on this issue, it confirms the will of Nicolas Sarkozy "not to jeopardize the future law on military programming.

One of the requirements of the Emirates has been accepted by the French: it is an adaptation of the Rafale in the future air-air missile European Meteor being developed by MBDA. Funding of 250 million euros, devoted a large part in developing radar antenna AESA-active RBE2 Thales, is currently scheduled for the end of the military program law, circa 2012. Very good source, it was stated in point that this financing would likely be advanced. To facilitate the contract with the Emirates, the Rafale of French Air Force will be with earlier than expected the payload capacity of Meteor. Conclusion: with the Emirates who have forgotten to be bad business, a contract is not a foregone conclusion. Paris announced last year to be able to deliver the first Rafale in Abu Dhabi in 2012. This challenge will be very difficult. Reason for the players of the case, summoned to the Elysée in early April, prepare their files at your fingertips ...

Well, not every thing is over but imagine a rafale with AESA, 9t M88 engines, METEOR, OSF NG and many other goodies...It will be extremely competitive in the Air superiority role and it will widen the gap with many other aircrafts... That is a config that some times ago everyone was dreaming about...At least this UAE deal will quicken the pace of the meteor integration which was originally schedulded post 2015!

I must say that am curious to see a rafale with 18t of installed trust...In terms of T/W ratio I don't think that anything would approach this thing...As an air enthiousiast I can't wait the demo solo of a rafale fitted with 9t engines.

[MM11]

If this deal materialises it's great news for the Rafale. I wonder about the M88-3 and 800 mln to develope such version of that M88 in that thrust class. Didn't people claim here that the M88-2ECO can already provide that thrust at current life cycle?

[Nicolas10]

Well, not every thing is over but imagine a rafale with AESA, 9t M88 engines, METEOR, OSF NG and many other goodies...It will be extremely competitive in the Air superiority role and it will widen the gap with many other aircrafts... That is a config that some times ago everyone was dreaming about...At least this UAE deal will quicken the pace of the meteor integration which was originally schedulded post 2015!

I must say that am curious to see a rafale with 18t of installed trust...In terms of T/W ratio I don't think that anything would approach this thing...As an air enthiousiast I can't wait the demo solo of a rafale fitted with 9t engines.

This can only be good for the AdlA if the UAE get their Rafales with AESA, Meteor and 9T engines. It could mean meteor earlier, and maybe retrofit to 9T engines? Now that would rock.

The only thing the AdlA would need then would be a HMS.

Nic

[Nicolas10]

If this deal materialises it's great news for the Rafale. I wonder about the M88-3 and 800 mln to develope such version of that M88 in that thrust class. Didn't people claim here that the M88-2ECO can already provide that thrust at current life cycle?

I thought it was either 9 tons OR better life cycle and sfc, and AdlA chose the better life cycle and sfc, so I don't understand the 800 million either.

Either way I hope SNECMA/Dassault make all those investments ASAP so they benefit from them for other markets. Maybe it would help the chances of the Rafale for India or Greece.

Nic

[arthuro]

Hasn't the UAE already financed a part of the F16's apg80 ? I hope they'll do the same for the M88...This deal is an important one because if concluded, it would boost the rafale capabilities in a short timeframe and will increase its chances in other markets.

I also hope that errors of the past (two negociators with the MOD and Dassault won't repeat...)

[MM11]

Hasn't the UAE already financed a part of the F16's apg80 ? I hope they'll do the same for the M88...This deal is an important one because if concluded, it would boost the rafale capabilities in a short timeframe and will increase its chances in other markets.

I also hope that errors of the past (two negociators with the MOD and Dassault won't repeat...)

Wasn't it said that this is a government deal, with Dassault not being involved in the negotiations? Let's just hope that the politicians won't make false promises.

[glitter]

Yet, many would claim France is a more reliable arms supplier than the US? Further, that the French (among others) have less strings................Funny, on how the facts don't back up such claims.

After all these "problems" with China during the mirage deal (and the frigate incredible mess), it has been noticed to Taiwan that the won't be any future military agreement.

[toan]

After all these "problems" with China during the mirage deal (and the frigate incredible mess), it has been noticed to Taiwan that the won't be any future military agreement.

No future military agreement for new French weapon, that's fine. We've known that French government has no sincerity for doing any new military business with Taiwan since several years ago, when Taiwan Navy asked for ASTER-15 SAM to equip its six French frigates (16 missiles per ship), and the cost that France offered for this plan was more than the total cost of three squadrons of F-16C/D Block52.....

However, I think French government has really gone too far to cut off the entire logistical support business which is necessary for maintaining Taiwan airforce's Mirage and MICA today. Taiwan is the first and the biggest foreign customer for buying new-built Mirage 2000-5 and MICA AAMs, and now it is treated by French government like this without any explanation. What a wonderful demonstration for any potential French weapon's customers ~ Before buying French weapons, you have better to make sure that your country is economically rich and politically powerful enough, so that French government will never decide to betray you so completely and suddenly without any hint or explanation in order to please your country's enemy.

As for Taiwan, let's send some Mirage and MICA to USA......

[Nicolas10]

I agree that it's clumsy behaviour by the french gvt on that one. Support should indeed be provided for the 2000-5 and for the replacement of the Micas...

Then again the situation of Taiwan is very specific and I don't see what potential Rafale customer could suffer from a similar fate...

[swerve]

Then again the situation of Taiwan is very specific and I don't see what potential Rafale customer could suffer from a similar fate...

True. There is no other country in a comparable position. France shouldn't be so spineless, but this isn't primarily a French issue, but a Taiwan issue. At the moment, nobody - not even the USA - is willing to provide arms to Taiwan, even sales which have previously been approved.

Taiwan is not only claimed by China as part of China, but one of the two main political parties (the one currently governing Taiwan) is distinctly ambivalent about preserving Taiwans independence, & uncertain about buying new weapons.

The USA is also wavering on selling weapons. Taiwan has been negotiating over a package of US weapons since 2001, with stumbling blocks being put in its way from within both the USA & Taiwan. The current government managed to block it when in opposition, by blocking the money, & when it finally decided to let it go ahead, the USA (which had previously approved the sale) procrastinated. Then Obama was elected, & everything started being reviewed again.

[glitter]

However, I think French government has really gone too far to cut off the entire logistical support business which is necessary for maintaining Taiwan airforce's Mirage and MICA today.

Honnestly, I never thought that it could go that deep too.

What a wonderful demonstration for any potential French weapon's customers ~ Before buying French weapons, you have better to make sure that your country is economically rich and politically powerful enough, so that French government will never decide to betray you so completely and suddenly without any hint or explanation in order to please your country's enemy.

No country want to face Chine wrath, as simple as that, live with it.

As for Taiwan, let's send some Mirage and MICA to USA......

And what do you think that they can find on a 70's plane with 80's French avionics ? something to improve the F-22 ?

[obligatory]

In what way does it differ if China wants to rattle vs Taiwan or vs India ?
If things gets hot between China and India, will suppliers have no problem facing embargo from China by supplying India ?, but the very thought of that made them hesitant to supply Taiwan despite the business as usual atmosphere

[sealordlawrence]

True. There is no other country in a comparable position. France shouldn't be so spineless, but this isn't primarily a French issue, but a Taiwan issue. At the moment, nobody - not even the USA - is willing to provide arms to Taiwan, even sales which have previously been approved

I can not believe that I am actually typing this. EDITED and banned along the way in this case I think cold hard business sense is involved. The French have been pushing for the removal of the EU arms embargo for sometime and it has been pretty clear that French industry has been positioning itself to take advantage of this if and when it happens. Furthermore lets not forget that French arms sales to Taiwan involved some merky unpleasantness that French industry probably wants to see back of.

And before we bash the French again let us remember that the only country currently supplying defence material to Taiwan is the US and even that is coming with severe 'lets not upset the Chinese too much' restrictions.

[ante_climax]

Yet, many would claim France is a more reliable arms supplier than the US? Further, that the French (among others) have less strings................Funny, on how the facts don't back up such claims.

Mirages to Israel comes to mind. Stopping selling products in war time. French are not that 'no strings' when its interests are at stake.

[Nicolas10]

I can not believe that I am actually typing this. Whilst the French are indeed spineless...

The french actually had enough spine to confront the big ole USA when they wanted to invade a petrol rich nation for no other reason that bush jr wanted to fill the pockets of daddy's arm-maker friends, and halliburton and co who still had the vice pres on their payroll to mention just him. Oh that and securing a good supply of oil.

We're only spineless when it suits you aren't we?

[sealordlawrence]

The french actually had enough spine to confront the big ole USA when they wanted to invade a petrol rich nation for no other reason that bush jr wanted to fill the pockets of daddy's arm-maker friends, and halliburton and co who still had the vice pres on their payroll to mention just him. Oh that and securing a good supply of oil.

We're only spineless when it suits you aren't we?

Voting against somebody at the UN is not a demonstration of backbone..............quite telling that that is the best example you can come up with though.

[Nicolas10]

Voting against somebody at the UN is not a demonstration of backbone..............quite telling that that is the best example you can come up with though.

Well, like there weren't any sanctions nor retaliations for that stand at the UN

The US were more powerfull than China is last time I checked.

[sealordlawrence]

Well, like there weren't any sanctions nor retaliations for that stand at the UN

The repurcussions were minimal, its now like nothing happened.

[swerve]

Mirages to Israel comes to mind. Stopping selling products in war time. French are not that 'no strings' when its interests are at stake.

The French still sold Israel what it needed, but through the back door. Where do you think all those Neshers came from?

[Scooter]

The French still sold Israel what it needed, but through the back door. Where do you think all those Neshers came from?

The Neshers and Daggers were built in Israel............Unless, your claiming France sold parts under the table. If, so I would like to see the source???

[swerve]

The Neshers and Daggers were built in Israel............Unless, your claiming France sold parts under the table. If, so I would like to see the source???

Are you saying Israel built Atar engines?

[Jackonicko]

"Whilst the French are indeed spineless (it is a national characteristic)"

Utterly, utterly, offensive nonsense.

[Scooter]

Are you saying Israel built Atar engines?

Are you saying you have a source. That states France provided Atar Engines to Israel. Against its own embargo..........

[J-20 Hotdog]

Are you saying you have a source. That states France provided Atar Engines to Israel. Against its own embargo..........

Libby, check this out
http://www.acig.org/artman/publish/article_274.shtml

[arthuro]

Scooter, at that time there was a very strong israeli lobby in france just after the embargo (even among the highest ranks of the french army) and many military hardwares like military boats or aircrafts (the entire designs plans) were delivered to israel sometimes with the use of clandestine operations with support of high ranking french officers...For the military boat delivery for instance...

Israel had full technical support of dassault to design the israeli variants of tghe mirage.

Remember that Marcel Dassault was a jew and survived the Holocaust during WW2 and was part of the french resistance. Shimon Perez was well known of Marcel Dassault at that time. So Dassault had very good ties with israel.

[sealordlawrence]

"Whilst the French are indeed spineless (it is a national characteristic)"

Utterly, utterly, offensive nonsense.

Live with it John boy.

[Satorian]

Mirages to Israel comes to mind. Stopping selling products in war time. French are not that 'no strings' when its interests are at stake.

Neither are the U.S.: http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/sho...&postcount=443


"The U.S. Pacific Command said in July that U.S. policymakers saw no pressing need to sell advanced arms to Taiwan."


They don't decide by whether the recipient needs the capability, but whether it suits their own plans, combining their own political and financial interests. Same goes for the French government. And for any other government out there too. All of 'em just a bunch of gray cats, with nary a black or white one to be ever seen.

[Scooter]

Libby, check this out
http://www.acig.org/artman/publish/article_274.shtml

I especially liked the all grey one with 5 kill markings........