Miles Satyr - exactly how did it meet its end?

[Wokka Bob]

[QUOTE=Planemike;1886708]£ 34:95 if you are member of Air Britain. Price includes delivery.

Ahh, now I understand. Are you our next Chancellor. So I re-join for £20+ and get the book £17.55 cheaper. Cunning plan:diablo:

[Graham Boak]

Two such books a year pays for your membership; plus whichever of the magazines you choose to obtain. OK, maybe three depending upon your choice of extras. It's a pretty good deal, particularly if you need to catch up on their booklist.

[avion ancien]

Thank you, Graham, for the supplementary information. Does the book elaborate upon what is referred to as "this latter story"?

Come, come, no bickering, gentlemen! But if you'll forgive me for repeating what I've said already (see above), can you assist here, please, Graham?

[Dave Wilson]

Just as light relief from the flame war, reading about the landing of the Satyr in the telephone wires reminds me of my gliding days when a guy at my club span in from low level and nosed into a large number of telephone wires (does anyone remember the masses of wires that you used to see on telegraph poles?) He got out without a scratch. The glider was rebuilt but always flew left wing low thereafter.

Does anyone think that Satyr was a bit of a weird name for an a/c given it's origins?

[Phillip Rhodes]

Does anyone think that Satyr was a bit of a weird name for an a/c given it's origins?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satyr


Satyr

satyr [sáttər]
(plural satyrs)
n
1. half-man, half-goat: in Greek mythology, a wood-dwelling creature with the head and body of a man and the ears, horns, and legs of a goat.
Satyrs were characterized as being fond of lechery and drunken merriment.
Roman equivalent faun
2. man displaying inappropriate sexual behaviour: a man who displays inappropriate or excessively sexual behaviour
3. zoology butterfly: a brown or grey butterfly with spotted wings.
Family: Satyridae


[14th century. Via French < Latin satyrus < Greek saturos ]


-satyric [sə tírrik], , adj
-satyrical, , adj
Encarta ® World English Dictionary © & (P) 1998-2005 Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved.

[Graham Boak]

The book has a full account of the crash on the 24th May 1933, taken from Mrs Bruce's book Nine Lives Plus. It then states the machine was repaired, put up for sale without success, and continued to be flown at displays, the final CoA being 2nd October 1935.

It then repeats the story told to Richard Riding about the part-sale to an oriental gentleman, who crashed it in Belgium, but states this "has no foundation in fact". It then describes the previously accepted account of an almost identical crash in 1936 as "seems to be an assumption and is unlikely to be correct".

I would suggest that the name Satyr followed on from Miles' work on the Parnall Imp and Elf. Purely my own suggestion, but it appears a fairly obvious link.

[avion ancien]

Thank you, Graham. If Peter Amos' statement is to be accepted, it would seem that we have enjoyed an interesting diversion over the past two and a half years! Thus it's not hard to imagine the doughty dame looking down and chuckling.

However if Peter Amos' account is accepted, it leaves an interesting conundrum. The Hon. Mrs Victor Bruce's autobiography, 'Nine Lives Plus', was published in 1977 (although I know not when it was written). In that she refers to the Satyr being repaired after the Stafford accident (having returned the copy I read, I cannot now say if she mentions a date for this accident - although from the fact that I make no mention of this in my first post, I am inclined to think not) but says nothing about its subsequent career and fate. However in the same year (1977) Richard Riding's article appears in Aeroplane Monthly, which relates the subsequent career and fate of the Satyr based on a "recent conversation" with the Hon. Mrs Victor Bruce. So why, apparently in the course of the same year, would she make, in her autobiography, no mention of the subsequent career and fate of the Satyr and then give an account of this when interviewed by Richard Riding? Furthermore if her account of the subsequent career and fate of the Satyr "has no foundation in fact" (to quote Peter Amos), why would she invent the same? Yes, she was then 81 years old but my recollection of my one encounter with her, again in 1977, was of a lady who certainly was not suffering any mental impairment. Indeed, my recollection is that then she was sharp as a knife!

One must accept that what Richard Riding relates, as to the subsequent career and fate of the Satyr, is what the Hon. Mrs Victor Bruce told him. I know of no evidence whatsoever that might contradict that. So if her account "has no foundation in fact", why should she invent this? One possible explanation is that the account was not devoid of fact but that the factual content had become somewhat distorted by the passage of time. Essentially, that it contained elements of truth but was, more than forty years on, not necessarily the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

On the basis of what I understand to be in the public domain, I am unaware of the existence of any evidence that refutes the Hon. Mrs Victor Bruce's account of the subsequent career and fate of the Satyr. Thus whilst it is equally true to say that I am unaware of any evidence, in the public domain, that corroborates her account, perhaps it would have been fairer for Peter Amos to have said something to the effect that he was unaware of anything that supports the account of the Hon. Mrs Victor Bruce, as related to Richard Riding, concerning the 'part sale' of the Satyr to a 19 year old Japanese person and its fatal crash, in that person's hands, in Belgium, and that he doubts the veracity of that account.

To summarise, I maintain an open mind concerning the ultimate fate of the Satyr. I remain to be convinced that the Hon. Mrs Victor Bruce's account is devoid of factual content. Whilst I accept that it is mere speculation, one cannot discount the possibility that after the expiry of the Satyr's final UK CoA in 1935, the Satyr did find a new owner (even if a part owner) and that it was involved in a fatal crash in 1936. Maybe not in the hands of Mr Yamamoto? Maybe not in Belgium? Maybe not in 1936? Equally one can postulate that the cancellation of its UK registration may not have been in consequence of it being damaged beyond repair. Maybe it was re-registered in another jurisdiction? I believe that there is still a story to be told. But whether, nearly eighty years later, the facts will emerge to enable that story to be told is another matter completely. But stranger things have happened!

[Graham Boak]

I see no reason to suggest she invented the story. As for why it was not in her book, it may simply be that between writing it and speaking to Richard Riding that her memory had been jogged. We have all had beliefs, and indeed memories, that turned out to be untrue, even before reaching such a venerable age.

It is my belief, which may be false, that Peter would not have written that the matter had been proved unless he had been completely convinced by some evidence not mentioned in the book. To do otherwise would be totally against the grain of the rest of his work. The real fate of the Satyr may well have involved one or more features of the tale, but then again may not.

The date of the original crash is linked to the displays of the British Hospitals' Air Pageants, in which the aircraft was appearing. I presume these can be dated from other evidence - indeed Paul McMillan has already done so. It was repaired and flying again at the Jersey Aerial Pageant August 31st 1933.

[ericmunk]

Yamamoto and Satyr apparently still doing well in late July 1936:

http://www.la84foundation.org/6oic/O...1936spart6.pdf

[Wokka Bob]

Yamamoto and Satyr apparently still doing well in late July 1936:

Well there is confirmation that Mr Yamamoto was still with the Satyr on 30th July 1936. Olympic Games no less. (Pages 1157 – 1160). International Long Distance Flight. Only collected 28.5 points though!

Now there’s a thought. With the rumblings of war in Europe, did Mr Yamamoto decide to go back to Japan?

Avion. Sorry, nil stock copy of WingSpan 127 I’m afraid. Mine are various from 1988-92.

[avion ancien]

As others have demonstrated, there is a proven post 1933 connection between the Satyr and Mr Yamamoto. It may be that "the machine was repaired, put up for sale without success, and continued to be flown at displays, the final CoA being 2nd October 1935". Also it may be that Mr Yamamoto borrowed, leased or had some other arrangement to use the Satyr whilst the Hon. Mrs Victor Bruce had no personal use for it (she having ceased flying circus participation in 1933 and having become involved in commercial aviation, through Commercial Air Hire Ltd., in 1934). If so, the possibility of Mr Yamamoto suffering an accident, fatal or otherwise, whilst flying the Satyr, resulting in repairable or irrepairable damage to the aeroplane, does not require a huge or unreasonable mental leap from the available facts. Maybe it is the Yamamoto path that now should be followed?

[Graham Boak]

I've raised the question on j-aircraft.org. I don't have too high hopes but it is worth a try.

[avion ancien]

Thank you, Graham. Nothing ventured,nothing gained!

[paulmcmillan]

Just a left field thought

I wonder if the Satyr ended up in Spain as part of Spanish Civil War??

Its not as if Mrs Bruce didn't have a link to in this activity anyway

[avion ancien]

An interesting thought, Paul - assuming that the Satyr did not suffer a dbr accident. But even if your thought cannot be rejected out of hand, I find myself wondering what role in the Spanish Civil War such a small, single seat biplane might have played. But my knowledge of the aviation aspects of that conflict leaves much to be desired. Perhaps someone more knowledgeable in this sphere can contribute something here?