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Thread: WW2 Aircraft Wrecks in the English channel(2008)

  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oppama View Post
    Was it a two door, or a four door?

    Nah.....it was a Ford Corsair!
    http://andysaunders.tumblr.com/


    Trouble is, when the fat lady sings, it might signal a Da Capo moment...

  2. #32
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    During a trip to Cornwall last month, I, by chance, came across this little display close to Newquay airport (RAF St Mawgan).

    The engine in front of the Spitfire is from B 17 # 42 - 31559 AW J of the 96th BG , 337th Sq. Pilot - Robert J. Denissen. A short article is below.



    Quote Originally Posted by www.looecornwall.com
    On the 20th March 1944, the crew of a Fortress aeroplane baled out over the land and the aeroplane crashed in Looe Bay, South East Cornwall
    The following extract is from the “Supplement to Annual Reports of the RNLI 1939-1946”

    “About five in the evening of the 20th March 1944, the crew of a Fortress aeroplane baled out over the land and the pilot, an American officer, then took her out over the sea and himself baled out and came down in the sea about a mile south of Seaton beach. The aeroplane crashed in Looe Bay. The weather was fine and calm”

    That aeroplane was the B17 Flying Fortress 42-31559

    This succinct report records the bare bones of the incident, however, the little dramas which surrounded the crash and the remains of the plane, have continued to create interest to this day.

    The B17 had been part of the 96th BG at Snetterton Heath in Norfolk and had been on a bombing raid over Germany but, having sustained damage, had lost direction and ended up over Cornwall. A local man, a school boy at the time, tells how the plane came over in a horseshoe pattern from the direction of Morval and how he saw several of the crew parachute out over farmland near Bray. The plane went on over the sea, out of view and several Looe boys, now in their 70s, have shared their memories of seeing the plane crash into the sea.

    The pilot, R.G. Dennison was rescued by George Love and Mrs Pearce who rowed out in a leaking boat with the latter baling out en route.

    The subsequent interest in the accident mainly centred on the remains of the plane. People locally, remember the wheels being on the quay shortly after the crash. In the 1970s, some local divers rescued some parts of the plane but could not find anywhere to place them so they were put back.

    Now with the rediscovery of some of the engines and propellers, after the recent storms, by Dick Berrie and his sons Thomas & Sam, from Northants, there has been a wonderful response from local people re telling the story. Details are emerging, such as the fact that the crew had to be persuaded to jump, at gun point! Undeniably, the pilot took a very brave decision in ditching into the sea and thereby avoiding the plane crashing on the land which would have probably resulted in loss of civilian lives.

    The pilot died about 2 years ago, but his widow has been informed of the interest being shown in the event of which there has been a great deal.

    The engine is being prepared for display in the museum in Looe and it will be accompanied by notes and pictures illustrating the whole story, both of the crash and the subsequent recovery of the artefacts and many details of the story. The 2 propellers have gone to St Mawgan to a small aircraft museum where they will no doubt be appreciated by the US forces based nearby.

    Hopefully, after all the memories which are being recounted, there will be a chance to create a record of life in and around Looe during the dark days of World War 2.
    Remains of another engine, not sure what it's from maybe an Anson ?
    Last edited by Peter; 15th February 2010 at 23:45. Reason: images no longer working
    Ian

    MAKING A LIVING IN PHOTOGRAPHY BUT ONLY ON MY WIFE'S TALENTS

  3. #33
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    Sore Subject This

    I visited the beach where the engines remained covered by the sand since the 60's, they were recovered and left on the shore line but the council said they had to be put back in the sea as the were ,'an eye sore', I enquired time and time again but I was always told that they could not be recovered!

    Funny how, 'they discovered by Dick Berrie and his sons Thomas & Sam, from Northants, after the recent storms whilst on Holiday!

    I hate the owner of the beach where these engines come from, just because a newspaper told a highly innacurrate story they were allowed to go to Barry Wallend, and are displayed outside along with his tupperware Spitfire!
    Last edited by Peter; 15th February 2010 at 23:46. Reason: why do you feel it is necessary to quote the post directly above yours???

  4. #34
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    Slightly off topic but why does the serial XH132 ring a bell?
    Proper planning and preparation prevents p*** poor performance

  5. #35
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    XH132 Canberra PR9

    XH132 Canberra SC9

    OK, what is an SC9? Is it that unique canberra with a pointy nose?
    Last edited by Creaking Door; 6th June 2008 at 15:27. Reason: Not PR9
    WA$.

  6. #36
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    ah thats jogged the memory

    SC.9 is a PR.9 with the Lightning's AI.23B radar mounted in the nose for RedTop and other radar guided air-to-air missile tests.

    AFAIK XH132 was the one and only SC.9, its full title was Shorts SC.9

    also XH132 never officially served as an RAF machine, it was scrapped some years ago but i believe her nose was saved
    Last edited by Peter; 15th February 2010 at 23:48.
    Proper planning and preparation prevents p*** poor performance

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peter View Post
    I wouldn't imagine there would be much left of a salt water located ww2 aircraft ,not after all this time?
    Never say never Peter,

    The report makes it clear that some sizeable and noteworthy wrecks remain

    (There is the odd Ju88 gem in 20 metre depth within the Channel).

    Enjoy
    Ross
    Attached Images Attached Images
    Restorer of Canberra PR.9 XH175 and anon (but looking more like 8249) Anson Mk.II

  8. #38
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    Amazing pics of the JU88 Ross! Must be due to the silt helping to preserve it?
    Cheers,Peter
    "Merlins always drip oil, when they don't....worry!"
    http://lancasterfm159.freeservers.com/

  9. #39
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    Not silt but fine/coarse sand.

    The bottom conditions are a barren area for all but starfish hence no bottom trawl fishing activity for crabs or shellfish.

    Still air in the tyres.

    Regards
    Ross
    Attached Images Attached Images
    Restorer of Canberra PR.9 XH175 and anon (but looking more like 8249) Anson Mk.II

  10. #40
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    Amazing! And recovery is slated for when??
    Cheers,Peter
    "Merlins always drip oil, when they don't....worry!"
    http://lancasterfm159.freeservers.com/

  11. #41
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    Hate to say it Cees, but if you think LW170 is in the Irish Sea you'll never find it. It was a 518 Squadron Halifax, and they never flew over the Irish Sea. It's last position was 56.20N 11.20W, which places it in the Rockall Deep.



    Brian

  12. #42
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    It was no longer on ops and it was on a met flight that it had a fuel leak and had to ditch, see the 57rescue canada website for more info

    Cheers

    Cees
    Ultravox at Lokeren 08.08.09, I was there!

  13. #43
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    can we please change the title of this and the balloon thread to indicate these are old losses?

  14. #44
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    Rocketeer, I changed the title a little bit so there was no confusion

  15. #45
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    If you want to find them and they're there, this is what you want:

    http://www.sideimaging.com/

    I've used it and have fitted it to the works boat this week. It's good.
    Last edited by Snapper; 7th June 2008 at 21:17.

  16. #46
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    Here's a swimming pool we looked at on Lake Eufaula, Alabama a fortnight ago, pic taken by me. It's the same one in the brochure. I could count the steps in the pool and even see a fish in it.

  17. #47
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    Hi, Ross. I would be interested in filming the Junkers under water. Anything you can share with me regarding location? Confidentiality is key with me.

    Blessings to you,

    Seaman Jones

  18. #48
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    Missed this thread 1st time round, as I was offshore - thought I might add something to it. Of course, some of you guys actually preserving aircraft might know more, but I've a lot of experience of salt water and metals...

    Quote Originally Posted by dsinnett View Post
    Slightly related to this I was reading a report on a mission to locate the Ark Royal in the Mediterranean. Given that the ship has been underwater for something like 60 years it was surprising to see an aircraft alongside the ship, and looking fairly complete. Is the Med not as corrosive as the channel?
    David
    Different areas of sea have different amounts of salinity, but apart from the Dead Sea, it isn't vastly different. I work in the ROV industry using heavy workclass equipment, and occasionally if we change location (ie - a different sea) we often have to recalibrate our sonar equipment due to the change of salinity affecting the speed of sound in water, the difference between the upper and lower levels being about 200mtr/sec. Temperature also has a big difference in the speed of corrosion of metals. We carry Temperature / Salinity probes so the surveyors can calibrate their doodahs attached to our vehicle. Seabed temperature in the North Sea is typically 2-5 C, but in shallower Med waters can be a lot higher. Temps down to about 500ft have been recorded at about 20C.

    Quote Originally Posted by steven_wh View Post
    Off the Norfolk coast, fishermen from time to time trawl up old aircraft parts.
    The Norfolk and Suffolk Aviation Museum has some bits on display. Mostly beat up, corroded and holed engines.
    Aluminium fuselages will have long gone for WW2 aircraft.

    Steven
    Indeed. Depending on the quality of aluminium, it will corrode quite quickly in salt water. Most of our equipment we put underwater is made of aluminium, and needs sacrificial anodes to protect it, usually zinc. Our stuff is quite thick, but I'd imagine lightweight stuff would rot pretty quickly without protection.

    Quote Originally Posted by DaveF68 View Post
    I do recall seeing a picture of a B-17 that appeared when they drained one of the areas. IIRC it was scrapped.

    Deep sea wrecks will survive longer as there is less oxygen (and I think less salinity) in the water, so corrosion is inhibited.
    Lack of oxygen does slow it down, but metals at depth corrode just as well. Depending on how tight an oil company has been in paying for anodes for their subsea equipment, we can see corrosion starting on equipment in 2000m deep equipment within months. Again, depends on several factors like salinity, quality of metal, directly exposed surface area, different alloys, or metals / minerals in contact with structures which may act as cathodic protectors. Another thing to take into account at depth is bacteria. One company I used to work for had big problems in deep, warm water off of West Africa when anerobic bacteria was found to be eating our main lift umbilical cable strands (basically wire rope cable with electrical and fibre optic cable conductors running down the middle internally). Over 3000m down, you do not want to be dropping $2m of equipment on the seabed!

    Deep water wrecks like Titanic point the way for this. The rusticles hanging off the structure is the result of bacteria eating the ferrous metals out of the ships hull. She's getting fragile and is a matter of time before she collapses in on her self. She's only lasted this long, as it is heavy gauge metal, unlike a lighter aircraft. Titanic also does not have ferocious ocean currents or wave action affecting her, since she sits in about 13,000ft of water.

    For channel sunk aircraft, the tide and shifting seabed is also going to be as bad as being in salt water. Sediment propelled by tide and wave action in the relatively shallow waters of the channel are going to sandblast any airframe. I've worked in bits of the channel with subsea currents running to 5kts+. Being buried under tons of sand as the seabed moves, or getting dragged by a moving seabed or fishing nets is all going to add to the destruction of any WWII era airframe. Perhaps there is a reason for the fact the biggest bits that seem to get salvaged are engine blocks....

    Again, other people might have different experiences to me, but what I've written is after a long history of looking at aluminium and other metal structures under the sea..... Pity the only aircraft wreck I've had to recover was an F-16 in the med - very little left of that!

    Hope I've been a little bit informative.
    Kind Regards,
    Scotty
    Last edited by WL747; 25th September 2008 at 22:52.
    "I've never killed a man, but I've read many obituaries with a great deal of satisfaction" - Mark Twain

  19. #49
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    Thanks for the insights Scotty.

    I remember a navy Lynx (Danish navy) which was dunked in the sea back in the 80's. They recovered it pretty quick, but it had already serious gearbox and rotorhead corrosion. Despite the navy Lynx being desinged for operation in a salty environment (although normally above water).

  20. #50
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    Lightbulb WW2 Aircraft wrecks in the English Channel

    The Cornwall at War museum at Davidstow, has several items including propellors and a WW1 u-boat gun that have been dredged up by Stephensons trawlers at various times. Surprisingly the u-boat gun, which is huge, is in very good condition but the propellors excrete a soapy blue wormlike substance when 'drying out' and are usually badly corroded. Thanks WL747 interesting to know some of the reasons why.

  21. #51
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    There's supposed to be a Lanc and a B17 in Pegwell Bay, Thanet.

    The Spitfire and Hurricane memorial building had one of the Lanc's Propeller tips on display which someone had sawn off from a boat at low tide.
    10. Go in quickly - Punch hard - Get out!

  22. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cees Broere View Post
    That's probably "Dinah Might", a B17 that was found intact among high grass after the war IIRC. From memory it was stated that the olive drab paint had weathered back to a sort of brick red/pink. There are a number of hotographs of her, but I doubt that it was found after the land was dry. Correct me if I'm wrong but it's probable that it bellylanded at the end of the war and simply left (happened at that time a lot to have it ripped apart by the locals).
    I found some more info and pics on this B-17.

    The crash site of this B-17 was in the Noordoostpolder, The Netherlands. This polder was reclaimed from the IJsselmeer, the former Zuiderzee, in 1942. In doing so 48000 acres of fertile farmland were added to The Netherlands.

    Serial of Dinah Might was 42-37950, it belly-landed on February 10, 1944 near the Zuiderringweg in the Noordoostpolder while it was on its way back to England from a raid on Brunswick, Germany. The aircraft was damaged by attacks of German fighters.

    After the war the Zuiderringweg was renamed Vliegtuigweg, which translates as Aircraft Road, after the B-17 which had been lying there from 1944 to 1947.

    The wreck of the aircraft was only removed after 1947. Dinah Might can be seen on an aerial photograph taken in 1947:
    http://historische-luchtfoto.flevoland.nl/
    Search for 'Ens, Vliegtuigweg' and put the slider all the way back to the year 1947. I have taken a screenshot and marked the location of the aircraft, to give you a reference where to look. Look at the western end of the road.

    Three pictures of the crashed aircraft and information about the crew can be found here:
    http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaver...ward-gibbs.htm It's a very big page, but a simple way to get to the info is a text search for Dinah Might.

    Screenshot:



    Tillerman.
    They locked up a man
    who wanted to rule the world
    The fools
    They locked up the wrong man

    -Leonard Cohen, Songs Of Love And Hate

  23. #53
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    A man's passion under attack.

    Quote Originally Posted by Me-109E View Post
    I visited the beach where the engines remained covered by the sand since the 60's, they were recovered and left on the shore line but the council said they had to be put back in the sea as the were ,'an eye sore', I enquired time and time again but I was always told that they could not be recovered!

    Funny how, 'they discovered by Dick Berrie and his sons Thomas & Sam, from Northants, after the recent storms whilst on Holiday!

    I hate the owner of the beach where these engines come from, just because a newspaper told a highly innacurrate story they were allowed to go to Barry Wallend, and are displayed outside along with his tupperware Spitfire!

    You need to calm down son; you’re making the women nervous.

    I’ve been trying to work out what ‘sore point’ you are trying to make and to what end?

    1. I never read the ‘alleged’ newspaper report, so have no idea what you are on about there.

    2. I was approached by the owner of Looe Museum as he did not know what to do with the engine and propellers of the B17 that was dragged off the beach and then secured locally on a farm. When I was called, I went and had a look and quickly realised that if they were not treated immediately, very soon there would be no propellers left to treat. The blades were flaking and powdering to bits ( oxidising?) I was told that the farmer wanted his trailer that they were sitting on and that other people had been asked and shown no interest. At that time it was me or the scrap man. At that particular moment in time I could have done without the hassle and expense of another project. There are people on this forum who will appreciate the cost of moving 2 ton of wide awkward load 40 miles and lifting it with a crane, over a wall, at short notice, on a Saturday! Its taken two years of painting with inhibitor to stop the corrosion.

    3. During the summer, Spitfire Corner has attracted up to 1,000 visitors a day due to coach tours, holiday visitors, local people, etc. It is a free, non-profit tiny museum with a replica Spitfire and a Canberra cockpit. There are 200 other aviation related items, mainly WWII bits and pieces. (some even bought off Tangmere!) All has been bought out of my own pocket.
    The engine/propellers that you indicate that should not be in my custody by innuendo, have been seen by over 120,000 people in four years. I’m keen to know what you would have done with them if you had been given them. Ebay?

    4. My (‘tupperware’) Spitfire raised £28,000 for charities when placed over Truro four years ago, with Truro Trade & Commerce. She also assisted with £4,500 donated to RAF St Eval memorial book six years ago. A further £1,600 has been raised and donated to various other charities around the local area. My Spitfire will assist next year in raising money for our wounded soldiers coming back from the Middle East.

    5. My (‘tupperware’) Spitfire has inspired a new generation of enthusiasts, model makers, artists, historians, etc.

    6. My Spitfire has been available for viewing 24/7 with a raised area for photography. Right now she is undergoing a £15,000 total refit and repaint including the use of original parts. Nav lights and ident lamps (all original and all working) fitted.

    7. It’s the only Spitfire on show in Devon and Cornwall (and probably much further)

    8. It’s the only WWII aeroplane on show in Devon and Cornwall (and probably much further)

    9. Spitfire Corner is only one of three such attractions in Cornwall (unless Me109E has an attraction I don’t know about?)

    10. At least I,m making an effort.

    11. Lastly, up till now, I’ve kept myself to myself and kept my head below the parapet (check my posts) I really enjoy the banter you lot generate!! But I dislike being ‘slagged off’ by a fellow enthusiast. Is there such an aversion to replicas that all replica owners are going to be tarred by a brush? In my mind, if there were no replicas in the world the average guy may never see the real thing as they are usually locked away on an airfield in a hangar.



    Finally, if your going to rant about another mans passion for aviation on an aviation forum behind his back, it’s worth knowing that probably half the people on it are not members, so he might actually be watching.

    By the way, to keep the records straight ; the name is Barry Wallond, not Wallend.
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    Last edited by spitfireman; 26th August 2011 at 00:50. Reason: rubbish spelling!

  24. #54
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    For a plastic Spit looks bl00dy good to me..Nice work...
    "If the C.O. ask's you to be Tail End Charlie...just shoot him!!!....A Piece of Cake.
    http://spitfirea58-27.blogspot.com.au/

  25. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by spitfireman View Post
    A man's passion under attack.
    Excellent post…..and a good reminder that anybody can read what is written here!
    Last edited by Creaking Door; 9th October 2008 at 13:37.
    WA$.

  26. #56
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    I've only just seen this thread. Well said my friend, I can't believe me-109es' post which is completely misinformed and seems to be driven purely by sour grapes!

    Spitfires, replica or othewise, ain't particularly my thing, but I can personally vouch for the utter aviation drive and dedication (in every sense of the word) of Spitfireman / Baz - this is one person you could definately say has dedicated his life to aviation in general, and the Spitfire in particular.
    Anyone who has been around him, seen his fantastic artwork, or indeed his collection at St Mawgan will realise what I'm saying.

    As an aside XH132 was indeed the one off Shorts SC.9, built solely for missile trials for which it served with DH Propellors, Bristols and finally the RAE. After being retired from service it was flown to St Mawgan for BDR use and gaining a 'Nimrod' colour scheme. Unfortunatly this unique beast was scrapped (instead of being allowed to go to Spitfireman incidently) in the early '90s, but its nose section went to a collector in Italy.
    Last edited by pagen01; 6th October 2008 at 15:17.

  27. #57
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    To keep on topic,

    I know the Dutch fishermen used to find bits of aircraft in their nets and took them to their home ports (Texel being one, where we visited once a year to have a look) but the past few years they throw anything back overboard, how about French, Belgian or British trawlers? FlyPast used to cover these items in their early years with a complete Stirling undercarriage crate with leg and mainwheel tyre still in one piece. Has anything recently turned up?
    (not to mention EF311)
    Cheers

    Cees
    Ultravox at Lokeren 08.08.09, I was there!

  28. #58
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    Cees, I think they are too busy trying to work out where the fish have gone these days!

  29. #59
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    Well done and well said, Barry! Don't let any Messerschmitt types shoot you down!
    http://andysaunders.tumblr.com/


    Trouble is, when the fat lady sings, it might signal a Da Capo moment...

  30. #60
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    An excellent piece of work your Spitfire Barry, back on topic I went to the excellent cafe/museum at Manston two weeks ago. In the 'Spitfire' part is a dehavilland bracket prop from a Blenheim that crashed just off the Kent coast, I forget the serial but the pilot avoided crashing onto a coastal town. Interestingly after about forty years undersea the prop still had most of it's paint and the boss was still dripping oil out as a patch on the museum carpet and catch tray showed! It was trawled up and was going to be thrown away fortunately a local enthusiast saved it, great work that man. If anybody has any more information or a better memory than me on this could they put it up for us all?
    The R.A.F was glad to have the Spitfire, but HAD to have the Hurricane!

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