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Thread: The PAK-FA Saga Episode IV

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    The PAK-FA Saga Episode IV

    ...we anticipate the Raptor's younger & better looking brother

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    PAK-FA weapons bay test-bed with stealth serrated doors on S-37, taken 21/03/08 (courtesy of UAZ):

    Name:  attachmentzw3.jpg
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    It is interesting to see the serated edges , i wonder if PAKFA would have these , becuse with advances LMA didnt need those on the F-35 to have same effect.
    Banking establishments are more dangerous than standing armies

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    hmmm... where are you seeing serrated edges?
    Last edited by sferrin; 19th January 2009 at 15:21.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bring_it_on View Post
    It is interesting to see the serated edges , i wonder if PAKFA would have these , becuse with advances LMA didnt need those on the F-35 to have same effect.
    I think F-35's bay doors do have serated edges, they just differ due to level of bay-door/fuselage moulding http://www.lockheedmartin.com/data/assets/12316.jpg
    I wonder to what extent the bay(s) arrangement follows that of the Raptor, or two large bays in tandem.

    Looks like they're taking LO seriously, though.

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    I had confused Saw tooth openings with serated edges . The RAM on the F-35 is much thicker then on the F-22 and supposedly costs 1/10th of that of the F-22 (in addition to being better and built to tighter tolerances).
    Banking establishments are more dangerous than standing armies

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    Thumbs up

    I didn't know they were using the Su-47 as a testbed until recently. I'm pleasantly surprised. Hopefully they'll test the PAK FA's thrust vectoring on it as well and then my dream airplane will be complete.

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    for your convenience i will post it again all material at one place. since connection between Su-47, PAK-FA and composite materials.
    AVIATION

    Russian fifth-generation combat aircraft to be built of materials tested on Berkut

    MOSCOW. May 5 (Interfax-AVN) - The first fifth-generation fighters will be made of composites tested on the SU-47 experimental aircraft (formerly S-37 Berkut), a competent source in the Russian defense industry told Interfax-Military News Agency Monday.

    "The first fifth-generation fighters are to be built of further developed and upgraded composite materials of the type used in the SU-47 experimental aircraft," he said.

    The source said that, for example, the composites that the wing panels of the SU-47 are made of have been tested thoroughly, and the designer of the future fighter knows they will work well.

    However, he went on, the technology of the production of the SU-47's wing panels has been poorly automated and still requires much manual labor.

    "The production technology should be upgraded. The serial production of the fighter has to involve new materials, and the automation level of the production technology should be much higher for lower labor intensity and production cost," the source said.

    He also said that the Russian Aircraft Materials Institute (VIAM) was working on new materials for the fifth-generation aircraft engine.

    "VIAM does this in close cooperation with the Central Aircraft Engine Production Institute that has inspired the creation of the engine. For example, it is necessary to make a high-curvature wide-chord working blade. The problem is not only to produce the blade, but also to tailor the material it is made of. The whole production process is to be automated," the source said
    AVIATION

    Russian R&D institute starts working out new composite materials for 5th generation fighter

    MOSCOW. April 30,2003 (Interfax-AVN) - The All-Russian R&D Institute of Aircraft Materials (VIAM) has started designing composite materials for the fifth-generation fighter, a competent source in the Russian defense industry told Interfax-Military News Agency on Wednesday.

    "The future composite materials most have advanced strength and rigidity specifications, as well as advanced heat stability. These parameters must be better by about 30 to 40 percent," the source said.

    According to experts, composite materials will amount to about 30 percent of the total weight of fifth-generation planes and aircraft engines. Specific weight of new composite materials is four to six times as low as that of steels and 1.5 times as low as that of alumunium alloys, the source said.

    "The composite materials being designed for the fifth- generation aircraft engine withstand the temperature of 400 degrees for a long time. The blades and entire screw as well as first blades of the compressor can be made of these materials," he said.

    VIAM has received the largest order for designing new composite materials from the Sukhoi military aircraft corporation that is responsible for designing the fifth-generation fighter, the source noted.

    In addition, one of the major agreements that have been concluded deals with certification of the TU-334 passenger plane.

    VIAM is also working with the Aviadvigatel JSO based in Perm to improve the PS-90A aircraft engine and create its PS-90A2 variety with advanced noise specifications.

    "New materials must provide for the aircraft engines' compliance with noise requirements of Chapter Four of ICAO Annex 16 and for creating the research and technical backlog to ensure compliance with Chapter Five of this annex that is yet to take effect," the source stressed.
    http://www.nmsu.edu/~ucomm/Releases/.../composi5.html

    The composites Sarychev and Shalaev are investigating are similar in structure to films that were being developed for use on stealth aircraft by the Soviet Union when Sarychev was a researcher at the Russian Academy of Science. The difference is mainly a matter of scale.

    “The work began in the 1980s and rapidly progressed until the crash of the Soviet Union,” Sarychev said. “The material was almost ready for aircraft when the Cold War ended and interest faded. It would have required building a new airplane, and there was no money.”

    The goal of that research was to develop an aircraft skin that would absorb microwave radiation. After Sarychev came to the United States and began collaborating with Shalaev, the two became interested in the optical applications of percolation composites.

    “It is quite different in the microwave range, but the main idea is the same,” Sarychev said. “Before, we worked on material that would absorb microwave radiation from far away. Then we started to look inside the material.”

    Sarychev has been a visiting professor of physics at NMSU twice and is now a college professor of physics. He has a Ph.D. from the Moscow Physical-Technical Institute and a Doctor of Science -- a degree that is higher than the Ph.D. and goes only to the country’s top researchers -- from the Institute of High Temperatures of the Russian Academy of Sciences.

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    Are they going to have a dedicated avionics test bed with all the equipment etc such as the modified aircrafts used by LMA ??


    Also why is this thread tagged for jon james??
    Banking establishments are more dangerous than standing armies

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    Quote Originally Posted by bring_it_on View Post
    Also why is this thread tagged for jon james??

    Do you have to ask, dam, ur one of the smartest guys on here

    squeaky wheel gets the oil...

    no offense intended but its the truth
    People sleep peacefully in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf....

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    Question

    Important Hyper Note: I am NOT an Aeronautical Engineer NOR an Aerospace Expert, etc, etc nor do I claim to be one.
    Regards,
    Hyper McStupid

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    Just thought I'd point out that the reason that the underside shots taken early on do not show serrated or sawtooth doors is because if you look closely, there has been an additional fairing added to the underside of the Berkut.
    Sean O'Connor

    Sean's Blog, now with forum
    ACIG.org Team
    Airliners.net

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    Just thought I'd point out that the reason that the underside shots taken early on do not show serrated or sawtooth doors is because if you look closely, there has been an additional fairing added to the underside of the Berkut.
    Why was that?
    Banking establishments are more dangerous than standing armies

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    Quote Originally Posted by SOC View Post
    Just thought I'd point out that the reason that the underside shots taken early on do not show serrated or sawtooth doors is because if you look closely, there has been an additional fairing added to the underside of the Berkut.
    Aha, I see it now. Hard to see against the black paint job. Looks like they just built the fairing into a completely separate unit and attached the whole thing to the underside of the Berkut. Before I though they modified the Berkut's bomb bay itself.

    Whatever works, I guess. Reminds me of the EE Lightning's belly tank.

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    Yep, the shot sferrin posted was scanned from a magazine around 2001 and shows the original configuration of the bays. The new fairing is a very recent addition.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hyperwarp View Post
    So are there in fact serrations or are we all participating in a rorschach test?

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    Quote Originally Posted by sferrin View Post
    So are there in fact serrations or are we all participating in a rorschach test?
    Well, if you read my explanation in post #28 as a follow-up to UAZ's initial posting of that pic on 'What's the Su-47 up to nowadays?' then much of this tail-chasing could have been avoided...or was it deliberate, just like your post#29 'debating' F-15 engines.....on the Su-47 thread.

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    Am I right in thinking the S-47 has 6 weapons bays?

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    looks like single missile bays? whats the point of having six bays with opening shutting mechanisms ? i think one big one for BVR weapons and 2 or 3 small ones for WVR should have been a better option. Maybe they have tried various other configs on the aircraft.
    Banking establishments are more dangerous than standing armies

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    Quote Originally Posted by Otaku View Post
    Well, if you read my explanation in post #28 as a follow-up to UAZ's initial posting of that pic on 'What's the Su-47 up to nowadays?' then much of this tail-chasing could have been avoided...or was it deliberate, just like your post#29 'debating' F-15 engines.....on the Su-47 thread.
    You'll have to talk to Garry about the F-15 engines as he's the one that introduced them to the thread. No doubt your eagle eye missed that little detail. As for your "post #28" you were on my ignore list until I saw bring_it_on mention serrations on the Berkut. Don't bother replying because you're going back on it.
    Last edited by sferrin; 26th May 2008 at 19:05.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sferrin View Post
    You'll have to talk to Garry about the F-15 engines as he's the one that introduced them to the thread. No doubt your eagle eye missed that little detail. As for your "post #28" you were on my ignore list until I saw bring_it_on mention serrations on the Berkut. Don't bother replying because you're going back on it.
    I'm sorry, I should be more considerate. When one aligns oneself with a certifiable degenerate from 'Planet Stupid' then a significant tumble in the intelligence league is to be expected, not to mention commiting a form of on-line harikiri.

    It's just I thought you'd shed your burden of living in denial- guess I was wrong.

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    Well, regarding the doors, I know in the game Ace Combat (there goes my credibility out the window ) it has the Su-47 with the same bay arrangement as planeman6000's picture. In the game, it's depicted as two bays (with two doors that fold open like the raptor), the large one in the back with the big missiles/bombs and the small one in the front that holds two small missiles. (AA-8 in this case)

    ...okay, so it's just a video game, but its the closet thing that I can think of seeing the Berkut's bay doors in action.
    Last edited by LoofahBoy; 26th May 2008 at 19:41.

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    The big bay in the old pictures almost looks like it could have an accordion type door, with small folding sections which all squeeze up to the sides. A benefit would be that when the bay is open there aren't large "barn doors" swung down and affecting side RCS. The drawback would be complexity, and inability to hang rail launching weapons from open doors (R-73, in the JSF AMRAAM style).

    The new fairing looks like it has a simpler door system, maybe testing something for the PAK-FA.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sferrin View Post
    So are there in fact serrations or are we all participating in a rorschach test?
    eh?
    Important Hyper Note: I am NOT an Aeronautical Engineer NOR an Aerospace Expert, etc, etc nor do I claim to be one.
    Regards,
    Hyper McStupid

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hyperwarp View Post
    eh?
    The reference is to a psych ink-blot test. Basically I'm asking are we seeing what we expect to see/want to see or are there in fact serrations? I'm not seeing anything resembling them at all (due to lighting quality on the photo) so I'm assuming someone has seen or heard of their being serrations from other sources.

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    Quote Originally Posted by planeman6000 View Post
    Am I right in thinking the S-47 has 6 weapons bays?
    http://img504.imageshack.us/img504/8356/s47sn4.jpg
    As bring_it_on pointed out, Don't think they are 6 weapons bays. But possibly 2. The main weapons bay and the one immediately after the nose landing gear.
    Last edited by Hyperwarp; 27th May 2008 at 00:28.
    Important Hyper Note: I am NOT an Aeronautical Engineer NOR an Aerospace Expert, etc, etc nor do I claim to be one.
    Regards,
    Hyper McStupid

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    [QUOTE=Arkali106;1252510]The big bay in the old pictures almost looks like it could have an accordion type door, with small folding sections which all squeeze up to the sides. A benefit would be that when the bay is open there aren't large "barn doors" swung down and affecting side RCS. The drawback would be complexity, and inability to hang rail launching weapons from open doors (R-73, in the JSF AMRAAM style).
    QUOTE]

    Less side RCS, but a notable increase in fore/aft RCS. I think they are, in fact 6 seperate bays. Not ideal, in my mind, but I suspect the large number of small doors has a smaller effect on RCS than the big US style doors. It does limit the overall size of the weapons that can be deployed, however.


    Matt

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    [QUOTE=mobryan;1252578]
    Quote Originally Posted by Arkali106 View Post
    The big bay in the old pictures almost looks like it could have an accordion type door, with small folding sections which all squeeze up to the sides. A benefit would be that when the bay is open there aren't large "barn doors" swung down and affecting side RCS. The drawback would be complexity, and inability to hang rail launching weapons from open doors (R-73, in the JSF AMRAAM style).
    QUOTE]

    Less side RCS, but a notable increase in fore/aft RCS. I think they are, in fact 6 seperate bays. Not ideal, in my mind, but I suspect the large number of small doors has a smaller effect on RCS than the big US style doors. It does limit the overall size of the weapons that can be deployed, however.


    Matt
    On the other hand more doors means more seams you have to maintain electrical continuity across.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mobryan View Post
    Less side RCS, but a notable increase in fore/aft RCS. I think they are, in fact 6 seperate bays. Not ideal, in my mind, but I suspect the large number of small doors has a smaller effect on RCS than the big US style doors. It does limit the overall size of the weapons that can be deployed, however.
    Matt
    I see no advantage in more doors. Just more things to go wrong.

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    More things to go wrong, yes. OTOH, a door failure only affects 1/6th the weaponry, not 50% or more, like the Rapter.

    You pays your money, and makes your choices.

    Matt

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