Key.Aero Network
Register Free

Page 3 of 5 FirstFirst 12345 LastLast
Results 61 to 90 of 124

Thread: Improved FREMM

  1. #61
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Paris and Turin
    Posts
    316
    All right guys.
    So. Is it possible to conclude wich radar (Empar or Herakles) is the better choice for the state-of-art AAW frigates Horizon class, not thinking to economics subjects, but only using the head of the soldiers or CVG that need the best protection by their AAW fregates?

  2. #62
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Posts
    49
    7Seas,

    thanks for your very informative posts. although not directly related to FREMM program, please comment on Elta's MF-STAR radar in comparison with Herakles, EMPAR, Arabel & SAMPSON.

    here is a pdf for MF-STAR:
    http://www.iai.co.il/sip_storage/files/3/27543.pdf

  3. #63
    Join Date
    Dec 1999
    Location
    pi::
    Posts
    63
    To Zajcev, (and others with an open mind)

    Yes the concept of the lens is rather old. I did not took the time to research the AN/SPG-59 but a quick scan learned me that it was a huge beast.
    The Lunenberg lens principle was ignored by most radar engineers but the Heracles is a reincarnated version of it with highly modern electronics.

    As promised, some more photo material.
    We have seen this CAD drawing, with in the front the lens, the red units are the solid state transmitters. Transmitting into open space (the green pyramid)



    Attached, from a magazine from Thales, a picture of a phase shifter and the lens.
    The lens is filled with 1761 of those phase shifters.
    If I understand it correctly, one side is the internal receicer, that gets in-phase energy via air from the transmitter. Then independant phase shifting per unit and re-transmission out of the lens to the outside world. Thats why you see left and right the arrow shaped antenna dipool. Reception from the outside world comes on the dipool and is collected in the lens and connected to a processing complex.

    Some interesting info that I found in JNI:
    Housed inside a trapezoidal structure, the lens array incorporates 1,761 phase shifters mounted on multifunction carriers. A 16-element 'retina' behind the lens creates up to four beams that can operate concurrently (a coherent, solid-state transmitter provides for a peak power of 50 kW).


    Those 4 beams are new to me! That means that you can split the energy and get 2 or 4 times the number of pencils!
    But there is no free lunch: this will cost range!
    If you have only a quarter of the power, you get less then half the range.
    That's why JNI writes: provide surveillance out to a range of 200 km and local air-defence coverage out to 80 km
    That makes full application of Aster 30 questionable. In a high density environment you have to switch back a lot of your pencil budget to local air-defence coverage to win capacity and as such loose a lot of long range coverage.

    Remember the swiss knife?

    Janes has also a picture of a testsite.
    Most people don't realize that this shape is turning with 60 rpm, while you can see that the motor centerline is not in the centerline of the antenna shape.
    That will give some comical and very strange rotation behavior.

    Now a little about stealth.
    I always smile when people on different boards can "see" which ship is more stealth than the other. Yes you can if you compare a ship from the 70's with one of today.
    Radar stealth of ships from today can only be compared with extreme complex radar reflection models and you will see that the big difference is only in the extreme details. On places where you didn't expect it.

    But stealth is also abouth InfraRed signature. If this antenna shape is kept at around 23 degrees (a nice temperature for electronics) and your environment is 7 degrees than you will see a "hot head" from long distance.

    Stealth is also abouth noise, not only under water but also from rotating objects that are not silent. At sea, during night you can hear over very large distance.

    And then stealth, I even can see: look at the antenna: sunlight glint.
    If this antenna rotates with it's comical pattern it wil glint to you from long distance on a sunny day. For that aspect a sphere would be much better.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Click image for larger version. 

Name:	one of 1761 phase shifters.png 
Views:	397 
Size:	149.4 KB 
ID:	149480   Click image for larger version. 

Name:	antenna lens.jpg 
Views:	550 
Size:	165.6 KB 
ID:	149481   Click image for larger version. 

Name:	Heracles test.jpg 
Views:	385 
Size:	63.1 KB 
ID:	149482  
    Last edited by 7seas; 7th January 2007 at 00:17.
    Have a nice trip
    7seas

  4. #64
    Join Date
    Dec 1999
    Location
    pi::
    Posts
    63

    To maxsona

    To maxsona
    And a radar dont cover 360° at the same time
    You are right. It's all about samples of the outside world.
    A 60 RPM radar with beamstearing can only take a sample per turn. Well you can play a little with the beam and look somewhat forward or backward in rotation, but you will pay the price! The bearing motor goes on!

    Sampson has potential a two times higher update rate thanks to the back-to-back antenna, but still the rithme is defined by a mechanical engine.

    Fixed phased array radars are completely free in how they spend their 4 fold budget. Slow update on big airliners, high&long update at stealth tracks (pump a lot of power to it!). Some medium range patterns, some long range patterns without the need for changing your rotation speed.
    Attention to the threat axis instead of looking backward to your taskgroup, because the bearing drive does not know where the treath is!

    and there are some reasons if Empar is more expensive and "state of the art" Horizont destroyer use Empar.
    Not a strong argument! Your computer today cost a lot less and can a do more than 20 years ago (that's where the origin of EMPAR lies).

    So modern electronics and rationalized production could make Heracles cheaper and do more than Empar.

    Maxona, do you have any price information ?
    Last edited by 7seas; 7th January 2007 at 00:20.
    Have a nice trip
    7seas

  5. #65
    Join Date
    Dec 1999
    Location
    pi::
    Posts
    63

    To sumeet1981

    To sumeet1981
    (you are still young!)

    Thanks for your link to the Elta's MF-STAR radar. I have a brochure from that system somewhere, but I believe it's like the PDF.
    Need to do some more research on this active phased array radar, but in short: That looks good.
    Is there any chance that you have a link to the EL/M-2238 3-D STAR Surveillance radar ? I had a chat with an Elta guy at Euronaval 2006 and he told me about their multibeam principle. It sounded like the story of the Thales guys around their SMART-L and SMART-S.
    That could be potential a real good radar.
    The only other multibeam volume search radar is the SeaGiraffe AMB, but they didn't fully implement the concept. They splitted the volume in a low and high area and do a kind of time slicing: two turns low volume, one time high volume, or something like that.
    That gives half frequency update for higher elevation, not so nice for incoming missile with a pop up manouvre. Just program the missile to jump at radar horizon to high elevation.

    I will come back on Elta's MF-STAR, but furst have to do some research.
    Normaly I would charge for that, but in this case ...
    Last edited by 7seas; 7th January 2007 at 00:23.
    Have a nice trip
    7seas

  6. #66
    Join Date
    Dec 1999
    Location
    pi::
    Posts
    63

    To European:

    To European:
    Is it possible to conclude wich radar (Empar or Herakles) is the better choice for the state-of-art AAW frigates Horizon class
    For the Horizon, that decision is far behind. Or do you mean upgrade ?
    Or do you mean FREMM ?
    In case of FREMM, I'm not ready with my conclusion.
    Heracles cost you a lot of horizon distance (low mounted) for some additional long range. But you get additional self-defence pencils compared to Empar.

    But that means, extra pencils to detect seaskimmers late!
    Late detection is less choices!
    Jamming, evasive manouvring (show your stealth side!), a salvo, an additional salvo, force engagement, al those choices are more limited.
    If you only have Aster 15 this is less important (it does not have more range). It becomes more important if you have Aster 30 also.

    But it can be, that the French Navy discoverd that the number of pencils of Empar alone (without the help of S1850M) is not enough.
    This opinion could be supported by the Sampson selection instead of Empar by the RN.
    Have a nice trip
    7seas

  7. #67
    Join Date
    Dec 1999
    Posts
    875

    Herakles

    Herakles is an active array rotating at 60 rpm in the S-band (range) - the beam can search against the direction of rotation for longer dwell times.

    The radar can form 4 beams, which can operate in long range search and 3D area defense at the same time. It also has a NCTR mode using imaging. It can start tracking targets on one or two scans as it back scans (keeps the spurious contacts that don't qualify as tracks until they reach a threshold).

    The manufacturer claims the radar is ideal for small ships with small crews due to the design.

    Ranges are 200 km vs fighter/helicopter, 60 km on low RCS missile. It can hold 400 tracks. Max 3D area defense range is 80 km (for guiding Aster 15 SAM - too low for Aster 30).

    It also has a surface search capability and can direct gunfire.

    Source: World Naval Weapon Systems 5 edition, pg 220-230
    Last edited by Peter G; 7th January 2007 at 01:18.

  8. #68
    Join Date
    Dec 1999
    Posts
    875

    EMPAR

    European Multi-Purpose Array Radar ranges are 50 km vs 0.1 m2 (LO missile such as head-on Harpoon, etc), 100 km vs 2 m2 (head on fighter), 180 km vs 10 m2 (bomber, MPA, etc).

    It can provide guidance for 24 Aster SAM, and is phased array (not active).
    Last edited by Peter G; 7th January 2007 at 01:22.

  9. #69
    Join Date
    Dec 1999
    Posts
    875

    SMART-L & SAMPSON

    SMART is an L-band 3D radar - ranges are given as 0.001 m2 at 65 km (stealthy target), fighter at 220 km, MPA at 400 km. The radar can detect TBM and even satellites in low orbit!

    Grouping SMART-L with APAR gives longer range, but at the cost of having to mount 2 separate radars.


    SAMPSON could supposedly operate without S-1850M (SMART-L with different software for longer range) - range given as 'several hundred km' and 105 km vs 0.008 m2 target (a pigeon if you ever need to detect one!).

  10. #70
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Paris and Turin
    Posts
    316
    So gentlemen.
    I try to pose my question again and in pragmatic way.

    'Today (gen, 7th 2007), if You were in the shoes of an admiral that has to choose between the 2 radars (Empar or Herakles) to provide the protection of the fleet, without thinking to technical, political, national interest or budget problems, which radar do you want to have in your best AAW frigates? '.

    Or better:
    ' If you were in the shoes of the sailormen of the fleet, that are risking their lifes in a high dangerous area of world with a lot of modern enemy aircrafts, which radar do you like to think is protecting your heads? '

    Choose only between the italian Empar or French Herakles.


  11. #71
    Join Date
    Dec 1999
    Location
    pi::
    Posts
    63
    European, that's an impossible question.
    You can not build an AAW frigate with Heracles or Empar (alone!).
    An AAW frigate is suppose to give aircoverage to a group of ships or area.

    What you can build with them is a GP frigate with a reasonable self-defence capability.
    Have a nice trip
    7seas

  12. #72
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Posts
    64
    On my HDD found this stuff saved one earlier discussion on this forum. Its not directly related to this topic, but there some interesting ideas about capabilities of EMPAR and other MFR radars.

    Author: Alfonso Figueroa.

    "I want to add some comments to your interesting and helpful message about the current capabilities of the several European AAW frigate projects, specially taking into account their sensor suites. It's very common on
    Usenet and other boards to read how such and such new-generation phased array is superior to AN/SPY-1x, "because it's active", even if some times the reasons are obscure or directly unknown to some of the readers of such boards. In my opinion, I don't really believe that using GaAs (Gallium Arsenide) modules or MMIC (Monolithic Microwave Integrated Circuits) on GaAs substrates to build a new generation active array instantly makes a better solution than the very mature passive electronically scanned fixed phased array of AN/SPY-1x. "Newer" is not always equivalent to "better". Let's see what are the supposed advantages of an active array with respect to the conventional passive one on the F-100s:

    a) Adaptive beamforming to counter heavy electronic jamming. This was shown in the Sierra-band MESAR (Multifunction Electronically Scanned Adaptive Radar) prototype, from which TRISAR/SAMPSON and other
    Siemens-Plessey radars evolved. Through a complex schema of sidelobe blanking beams and multiple subarray receivers a number of jammers can be cancelled (15 per array with 16 receivers). Great, but ECCM is not exclusive to active array technology, and is well known that starting from the first SPY-1B prototype the antenna design emphasized lower sidelobes and improves dramatically jamming resistance against self-screening and standoff jammers/repeaters, together with ECM analysis and burn-through processing (and SPY-1x uses very brute-force burn-through capability). So, in ECCM terms, an active array is doing what a passive array does, with a different technology. But before we ponder too much on this question, we have to ask ourselves who exactly is going to have the technical know-how and the tactical ability to get close enough to jam an AEGIS system out of service and survive the experience, because such hypothetical all-powerful threat will also jam an active array or any other radar out of the water too.

    b) Progressive degradation of system functionality instead of total failure. This is the single most important characteristic of an active array. Since the array is composed by a large number of elementary radiators (almost 85-90% are T/R modules, the rest being simple phase shifters like in passive arrays), a number of them can fail or be battle-damaged, but the system could still function. On the other hand, the AN/SPY-1A/B have only two very powerful radiators, and AN/SPY-1D only one, belowdecks, so its failure is a mission kill for the ship. Great, but how can be that considered a negative aspect of an AEGIS system is something that puzzles me. We shouldn't forget that if the ship service turbo or aux generator fails, because of the sustained battle-damage, the
    active array will remain as silent as a passive one. Doh! And... what if the technology on passive array like AN/SPY-1x, and specially the software of its fire control system, is more mature than the one on new-generation
    barely-tested almost prototype-alike active arrays? Would that offer additional, realistic, operational reliability?

    c) Performance on littoral/enclosed waters and low horizon scanning. This is due to the capability of forming narrower beams at low angles. Great, but let us not forget that this ability depends also on the frequency that
    the active/passive array is using. I would like to remind that AN/SPY-1D(V) is modified for the littoral environment and for dealing with fast, sea-skimming missiles. We have to remember that a fixed array has
    the capability of changing its beam scheduling/policy to hit low-elevation sectors at will, something that is not as easy in a rotator active array like the British SAMPSON, or passive one like ARABEL/EMPAR. The same can
    be said to higher-elevation sector scans for ballistic missile defence (TBMD).

    So, as you can see there are a number of theoretical advantages on the active arrays, but none of them is prone to revolutionize anti-air warfare any time soon. Upon a close examination, the most interesting ability is the one I mentioned in point b), and that surely is not one that can substantiate the very frequent British claim that SAMPSON is "better" than anything on earth. There are plenty of naval/ground late generations passive arrays being fielded/designed (SPY-1, TRS-22XX, RAT-31SL, EMPAR, ARABEL, Sky Watch, J/FPS-2, Type320 etc), a fact that confirms their capability is absolutely granted in their lifetime. On the other hand, a few additional comments:

    - German/Ducth F-124/LCF Side. We are not sure that APAR-STIR/SMART-L is inferior to AN/SPY-1D, but it doesn't look superior either. For a start, one of the most important functions of the ship (long range volume search) is assigned to the Delta-band rotator SMART-L. A rotator is prone to mechanical failure and it's sensible to special kinds of countermeasures (more of its sidelobes are exposed on every rotation). So two of the advantages of the active APAR system (reliability through progressive degradation and ECCM) could be moot points if balanced with the disadvantage of SMART-L. Second, a rotator will never be as efficient in littoral areas or in TBMD (where long range volume search is vital) as a fixed array with beam scheduling. Third, SMART-L is forcing you to have a bigger radar cross section (RCS) than with a single fixed array that combine search and mid-course guidance. Fourth, APAR is very nice, but is working in a higher frequency (India-band) than SPY-1D, since it's basically a fire control radar. That means shorter range, worse weather penetration and clutter rejection, which implies that your backup volume-search in case of SMART-L mechanical failure is compromised. Having APAR/SMART-L could look like a nice redundancy feature, until close examination: if you loose APAR you are mission-kill due to FCS loss, but if you loose SMART-L, you have your early warning detection and volume search on an India-band fire control radar! Uh-oh, looks like a mission kill to me. Fifth, if your want to integrate SM-2IVA and CEC you have to pay for its development. None of that applies to the F-100's AN/SPY-1D. (It could be argued that the AN/SPG-62 of the Mk.99 AEGIS FCS can also suffer mechanical failures, but remember that such end-game India-band CW illuminator is not subject to same mechanical stress as a constant long-range search rotator).

    - French/Italian ARABEL/EMPAR side. With due respect, though nice and modern radars, their overall capability is not even in the same league as AN/SPY-1D (though it must be said that EMPAR looks better than ARABEL, at least on paper). For a start both ARABEL/EMPAR are passive phased array mechanical rotators. That implies bigger RCS, bigger still due to the use of a second rotator S1850M (SMART-L/MARTELLO coctel), for long-range volume search. It also implies worser data rate than a fixed array like APAR or AN/SPY-1x. The same problems described in the previous paragraph regarding the rotator SMART-L can be applied to these systems, with increased manning costs to maintain two mechanical radar systems instead of a single reliable fixed one like SPY-1x. In addition, both of them are higher frequency (specially ARABEL, since EMPAR is Golf-band, but still a mere 80Km range or 150Km with dedicated surveillance and decreased data
    rate), and that implies shorter range, worser clutter rejection etc. ARABEL/EMPAR are not even a multibeam radar like SPY-1x, though they can change the beam from pulse to pulse. (No mention goes to the use of Sylver and the need to get rid of the 5" gun to make space for the missiles!)

    - British SAMPSON side. Again, a much vaunted active array evolved from MESAR/TRISAR/TRIXAR, with all its theoretical advantages, which are a lot bigger on paper than on practice. But... an active phased array on a
    rotator? Again, in order to reduce cost your get worse data-rate, even if you use a back-to-back configuration and sophisticated beam steering. Again, it needs a second radar for PAAMS volume search, with all the implications previously described. Additional maintenance. Bigger RCS, etc. But the most important thing is, we have AN/SPY-1x today. We know it works. Where is SAMPSON and its associated FCS? How can be the advantages
    of something that doesn't exist be analyzed?

    Cutting long stories short, I agree that APAR looks very nice, and we only got out of it because there were some initial problems and doubts. Also, SAMPSON looks good on paper, but it will take many years to reach full operational reliability. The most important thing that Iñigo wants to say is that the AEGIS combat system is very mature and proven technology, with a minimum technological risk and development cost for Spain and with
    a very promising future through CEC and TBMD. Software is an extremely complex beast, and I wouln't change the stability of an AEGIS tried and tested WCS for a newer generation bells-and-whistle one if the decision was in my hands. The Armada has chosen the best possible solution for Spain. Taking aside national, political, industrial and darker interests, the F-100 and its technology could have been the best solution for Italy,
    France and the UK. They won't admit it, but they know it, and they suffer in silence....."
    While this discussion moves more towards capabilities of frigate sized MFR radars, dont forget also:
    - australian CEA solution proposed for ANZAC class ASMD upgrade. ASMD should include CEA-FAR MFR radar with 6 faces and 4 CEA-MOUNT ICWI illuminators, both with AESA antennas.
    - SPY-1F/K, (while made some basic googling I wasnt able to find any info about their capabilities)

  13. #73
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Posts
    216
    from my point of view Alfonso Figueroa's posting is very subjective with the goal to show of aegis/spy1 as the superior system.
    e.g. he critizie apar/smart-l only because smart-l as a rotator may mechanically fail. what will happen if a mk-99 fails during an interception?

    @7seas: do you have some more information on the SeaGiraffe AMB like rpm's, weight and range?

  14. #74
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Posts
    64
    Quote Originally Posted by radar View Post
    from my point of view Alfonso Figueroa's posting is very subjective with the goal to show of aegis/spy1 as the superior system.
    e.g. he critizie apar/smart-l only because smart-l as a rotator may mechanically fail. what will happen if a mk-99 fails during an interception?
    While completely agree with first part of your post, not sure about the argument with SPG-62 illuminators.
    IMHO there is low probability that all illuminators will mechanically fail at the same moment. Note that there are at least 2 of them (F100) or more (3 on DDG51/its clones and 4 on CG-47).
    My point is that family SPY-1D/F/K is vulnerable becouse of its single power radiator for all 4 antenas. If it fails (or is damaged), ship is almost blind, only sensors left are short range nav and surface search radars and illuminators.....
    Here is solution used on EU AW frigates/destroyers better, becouse if one of two main radars fails, the other one could to some degree overtake its search/track role (not fire control!!!).

    Only one remark, I dont know much about real capabilities of CEC on Aegis ships. Mayby this could solve the problem with malfunction SPY-1 on one ship in the battle group.

    7seas, many thanks for posting the pics of lens . Have digged out that Lunenberg lens was besides SPG-59 was used also on land based radar for Nike Zeus missile defense system.
    Last edited by zajcev; 7th January 2007 at 20:02.

  15. #75
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Posts
    49
    7Seas,

    yeah i am young. anyways thanks for your effort.

    here is the link you requested:
    http://www.iai.co.il/sip_storage/files/4/27554.pdf

    after reading alfonso's article posted by Zajcvec i can already see some of the benefits of Elta MF-STAR.

  16. #76
    Join Date
    Dec 1999
    Location
    pi::
    Posts
    63

    Sea Giraffe AMB

    To Radar,
    the brochure was on my left pile.
    I have scanned it, see attachment.

    Can't find any info on the Saab website.
    It's removed from the Erisson website.



    Weight is not mentioned. Strange! If weight is such a selling feature of the AMB, you would expect it in the brochure!
    I have seen somewhere 2200Kg, will be including all electronic cabinets I asume.

    Selected by Sweden for Visby, Poland for upgrade Orkan and UAE for Baynunhah
    The Visby cone is (still?) empty.
    Upgrade Orkan could be the first with operational experience at sea.
    Baynunhah will take some additional time before it goes to sea.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Click image for larger version. 

Name:	SeaGiraffe-AMB_1k.JPG 
Views:	472 
Size:	178.9 KB 
ID:	149505   Click image for larger version. 

Name:	SeaGiraffe-AMB_2k.JPG 
Views:	380 
Size:	180.0 KB 
ID:	149506   Click image for larger version. 

Name:	SeaGiraffe-AMB_3k.JPG 
Views:	504 
Size:	151.0 KB 
ID:	149507  
    Have a nice trip
    7seas

  17. #77
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Posts
    216
    @7seas: thank you for scanning the brochure.

  18. #78
    Join Date
    Dec 1999
    Location
    pi::
    Posts
    63
    Thanks sumeet1981.
    Could not find that one on the iai site. I got white pages, maybe Firefox browser problem?

    Indeed, the Elta MF-STAR looks great.
    For FREMM and Aster this could be a real good solution !

    The only lack is the illumination of US missiles like APAR does with ICWI and that's also the way the US is heading towards with the SPY-3, the MFR component of the active phased array Dual Band Radar.
    The other DBR component is the Volume Search Radar SPY-2 in S-band.

    With the DBR you see that the US also has discoverd that you can not mix surveillance and fire control.
    Also that surveillance has a preference for another frequency band than fire control.
    Their first choice for surveillance was L-band but an active phased array in L-band will be a huge beast because of the wavelenght.
    Also for upgrade of the SPY-1D towards active phased array, it was a smart decision to move over to S-band.


    To zajec
    The Alfonso article is known to me.
    Be sure that as soon as the US pushes radar stuff on the export market, it's not up-to-date anymore.
    The NFR90 study resulted in a dual band radar solution in L and X band.
    The F124 and LCF are results from that.
    Spain quitted that program because industry could get more bennefit from cooperation with LM. The Norwegian frigates proved even additional benefit.
    I'm not sure if it was the best solution for the Spannish Navy, but there are more such examples that politics rule instead of navy requirments.
    The US development of the DBR goes along the same lines of the NFR90 study.
    Sampson is active phased array
    CEA develops active phased array
    Eltar develops active phased array
    I saw in JNI an article that Thales-NL proposes already a next generation of active phased array for the RNLN patrol ship (will come back on that later).

    Alfons article sounds like:

    This is better than that

    Sorry, size difference not intended. I would point to technology difference.
    Last edited by 7seas; 7th January 2007 at 21:45.
    Have a nice trip
    7seas

  19. #79
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Posts
    49
    7Seas,

    drop me an e-mail: sumeet1981@yahoo.com, i will send it as an attachment to you.

    MF-STAR is indeed a great radar. But what do you say about combining surveillance features with fire control ones into the same radar ? I have read that thats not the best way and hence you have SMART-L + APAR and a DBR from US.

    Israelis did study SM-2 Block3 as another option against Barak NG but finally decided to pursue Barak - NG in a joint venture with India's DRDO. This missile will be compatible with LM MK41 launchers.

    In modern day threat environment you need to deal with saturation attacks or multiple attacks. To support multiple engagement via ESSM which is a semi active missile one requires the ability to provide multiple, simultaneous illuminations. This necessitates the use of an interrupted continuous wave (ICW) illumination waveform for terminal homing, rather than the more conventional continuous wave. It also allows the SPY-3 radar to continue to simultaneously search for, detect, and track other threats.

    MF-STAR will support two types of missiles: Barak-1 which works on CLOS principle and Barak-NG which will use INS cum mid course updates till it reaches terminal stage when it opens up its active radar seeker. Since this radar uses multiple beam principle, many Barak-1 can ride on those beams towards multiple incoming threats simultaneously . We don't need ICWI. Correct me if i am wrong.

    In your previous posts you have elaborated on drawbacks of using pencil shaped beam, but can you elaborate on drawbacks of this multiple beam tech. if there are any.

    Still I feel american solution is better. Fusion of X-Band FCR with S-Band SR radar is great. Also S-Band offers better performance under ECM than L-Band.

    but then doesn't the L-Band offers better detection against low RCS targets than both S-Band and X-Band ? And L-Band has many other benefits over S-Band. Its a frequency of choice for long range surveillance. But still we will see products like Master-T radar from Thales Raytheon which is an S-Band Surveillance AESA radar. Sometimes choices of different bands for same type of equipment leaves me totally confused. I mean Lockheed and Northrop promotes L Band for Surveillance radar, Thales-Raytheon is promoting S Band and all this while its generally acknowledged that L-Band is best for long range surveiilance.

    you are right AESA technology by itself has benefits over PESA and alfonso's post cannot change it. But i think he wants to emphasize the fact that mature PESA technology isn't that bad after all. The point being that difference between AESA and PESA isn't like F-22 raptor and F-86/F-104. With world quickly changing over to radars using AESA technology many uninformed people want to dismiss PESA tech as if its dust. And thats not true. Ask awesome PESA designers like NIIP Thikimorov or designers of systems like SPY-1. Another point he raised about reliable, well tested and mature software can give you the best utilization of modes associated with Passive EScan and Active EScan should definately be taken into account.

    And lastly for each technology there are way(s) to best design your product. Simply just because one is using AESA tech won't make one's product great if one messes up or miss some design feature associated with that technology which are critical to obtain desired performance levels from that equipment.

  20. #80
    Join Date
    Dec 1999
    Posts
    519

    Arrow

    I interrupt your radar conversation to bring you this FREMM news article.

    MBDA Receives Notification of Scalp Naval Contract

    (Source: MBDA; issued Jan. 4, 2007)

    MBDA has received notification from the French defence procurement agency, DGA (Délégation Générale pour l’Armement), of the development and production contract for 250 SCALP Naval missiles, the naval cruise missiles destined to equip the French Navy’s FREMM multi-mission frigates and Barracuda submarines.

    200 missiles will be for the FREMM and 50 for the Barracuda.

    The contract, dated 29th December 2006, is made up of four tranches with the first tranche coming into force with this notification and covering the delivery of 50 missiles for the FREMM frigates in 2013.

    The value of the contract is 910 million euros.

    Production of the SCALP Naval missiles will be carried out in Selles Saint Denis, MBDA’s central region site in France.

    Marwan Lahoud, MBDA’s Chief Executive Officer, said: "With this notification of the SCALP Naval contract, France will as of 2013 be equipped with an independent strategic capability that is both new and unique in Europe. SCALP Naval, Europe’s first naval cruise missile, comprises the most advanced of technologies. This contract therefore, also ensures that MBDA will be able to maintain a high level of technology and a strong industrial base in France”.

    Didier Evrard, Managing Director of MBDA France and Group Director of Product Lines, stated: "This contract, bringing the innovative and highly effective SCALP Naval into being, is the result of years of preparation work carried out by MBDA personnel in close collaboration with the French DGA. Congratulations are due to all those who have contributed to this successful launch”.


    With an annual turnover exceeding EUR 3,5 billion, a forward order book of over EUR 14 billion and over 70 customers worldwide, MBDA is a world leading, global missile systems company. MBDA currently has 45 missile system and countermeasure programmes in operational service and has proven its ability as prime contractor to head major multi-national projects.

    MBDA is jointly owned by BAE Systems (37.5%), EADS (37.5%) and Finmeccanica (25%).

    -ends-
    http://www.defense-aerospace.com
    Superior tactics can always defeat superior numbers.

  21. #81
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Posts
    49
    About the ICWI Mode for the X-Band APAR radar, thales had to develop:

    1) Solution for acquiring ones own missile.
    2) Generating a uplink datalink
    3) Most importantly scheduling scheme for guidance signals to support multi target engagement by ESSM.

    APAR uses all of its antenna on time sharing basis to complete various jobs the radar is tasked with [Every 1 second there are 1000 milliseconds to be distributed over various jobs]. The optimized solution from thales ensure that all antennas have their time budget 100 % utilized. Infact, thales have built APAR for environment where more than the tasks require more than 100% time budget of the antenna. Because of this no fixed time sharing scheme can be applied. Hence APAR needs to continually optimize its overall performance by best compromising task’s priority, performance and the
    available time resources. Therefore a very robust scheduling fucntion has been developed for radar usage under many different kinds of operational scenario.

    Therefore guidance signals to ESSM are confined to a severe timing protocol.

    4) And finally manufacturer has come up with solutions for handing over engagements that are in-progress to neighbouring antennas (for example as a result of ship movements).


    Thanks to multi beam principle of MF STAR and CLOS guidance principle of Barak-1 we don't have to deal with a lot of this. It was one of the major challenges for Thales to accomplish and this kind of stuff requires extensive testing and debugging and consequently pushes the cost higher.


    If you look at high resolution PDF of MF STAR, [i gave you the low resolution one, here is the high one: http://www.iai.co.il/sip_storage/files/0/30310.pdf]
    you will see according to task you see different transmission pattern. You have narrow/concentrated beam for missile guidance while stacked multiple beam while the radar performs volume search. In different sectors all this can happen simultaneously and it gives me an impression that here also antenna is being shared on time basis like APAR.

    S-Band offers narrow beamwidth making it difficult for ESM and ARM to detect it. Difficulty for ESM such as RWR and recievers that are inbuilt into jammers mean, low likelihood of main beam getting jammed.

    Also this facilitates improved detection of targets placed in between multiple stand off jammers at regular spacings or even close to a jammer. S-Band radar will experience jamming if jammer is placed near or inside its main beam but due to wide beamwidth of L-Band it can experience EM blinding over a wide angular sector in multiple SOJ scenario. Antenna sidelobe level for S Band is 5 dB less than L Band for equal sized antennas.

    If L-Band has been used for long range surveillance, C-Band is commonly used for fire control and S-Band which lies in between is a comprise between long range volume search and fire control. If you consider this in addition to S-Band's performance in ECM enviroment its seems to be a good choice to put both function into a single band radar.

    Moreover,

    1) At low elevation angles L-Band suffers from propagation effects making it unsuitable for horizon surveillance.

    2) Comparitively X-band has very favorable low-altitude propagation characteristics that make it very attractive for use in horizon search against low-flying ASCMs. In terms of low altitude propagation effect factor X-Band has 35 dB advantage over L-Band and 17 dB advantage over S-Band at a radar horizon of 21 kms when all these different band radars are positioned at a height of 26 m. [TEMPER propagation Model from Applied Physics Lab at John Hopkins University.]



    So if you have surveillance feature built into a S-Band radar chances of detecting low flying CM are better. Therefore you also see missile horizon search mentioned as one of the operational capabilities in the PDF to MF STAR. L-Band radar can't do it just as well, it isn't L-Band cannot do it.

    On the advantage L-Band side:

    Clutter increases with frequency so the spectral spread of clutter is more in S-Band in comparison with L-Band. For Sea clutter, when angle is < 1 degree
    and at VV polarization L-Band experience reflectivity 10-15 dB lesser than S-Band. At H polarization and high grazing angle the difference in clutter reflectivity values for the two bands is around 2dB.

    Weather and atmospheric attentnuation increases with freq. Generally at 0 deg elevation in a clear environment L-Band has 1dB less attenuation than S-Band at 200 nautical miles. Precipitation echoes for S-Band are stronger than L-Band eg -75 dB as against -90 db for 10 mm/hr precipitation rate.

    If chaff payload is held at constant then the RCS value is directly proportional to frequency. So for a constant chaff load, RCS is 3 to 5 dB higher in L-Band than in S-Band.

    RF transmission loses increases with freq.

    Volume Search performance directly varies with power aperture product, L-Band provides least expensive design for a given product value.

    RCS of stealthy targets is more in higher freq than in lower ones.

    Of course i haven't covered many other comparison topics like multipath, diffraction, Freq. Agility band, Antenna gain, Reciever Sensitivity, Velocity response, angular accuracy and resolution etc....... [due to shortage of time. Sorry!]

    now a little about S-Band v/s X-Band: the higher you go the better performance you get against low altitude stuff. A larger and heavier antenna will be needed for a S Band radar to give equivalent performance of a compariively small X-Band radar. And considering the fact that the lesser the weight, the higher you can go X Band has obvious advantage over S band.

    And various studies like NAAWS have shown that to attain optimal level of ship level resources volume search function etc.. should be performed by a dedicated surveillance radar and not just MFR.

    Consequently we have a multi sensor RF suite in modern day ships:


    References:

    Comparison between L Band and S Band for 3 D Surveillance Radar.
    AMS Systems.

    Design and Consideration in choice and defination of Phalcon AEW System.
    IAI Elta Division.

    AN/SPY-3: Navy's next generation force protection radar system.
    NAVSEA, Naval Surface Warfare Center, Dalghen Division, Technical Digest.

    Overview of APAR MFR.
    Thales Nederland.

  22. #82
    Join Date
    Dec 1999
    Location
    pi::
    Posts
    63
    Sumeet,
    your post
    drop me an e-mail
    I can follow.
    your post
    About the ICWI Mode
    it's in a jumble, that it takes more time to understand it.


    Back to
    drop me an e-mail
    Sorry, I was not clear. I could download your link, thanks for that.
    But I searched the site by myself and could not find it due to white pages, nevermind.


    But what do you say about combining surveillance features with fire control ones into the same radar ?
    I think I made my point clear, but if you insist on a one radar concept,
    then an active phased array S-band radar is the best solution, because it's middle of the road.


    The PDF shows an FC radar (or uplink capability?) for missiles on top of the MF-STAR, that looks like an ESSM or SM2 guidance. That does not fit in your story.


    Yes Barak is CLOS, that's more complicated than the Aster uplink.
    Since this radar uses multiple beam principle, many Barak-1 can ride on those beams towards multiple incoming threats simultaneously
    I assume you mean pencils to command the Barak. It's like multiple FC channels.
    The CLOS version you have to bring to the target, the missile assumes it has itit's own FC radar for that. If it can handle multiple targets than you need a kind of Intermitted CLOS. Sounds not impossible to me with an active phased array. But beware: Marketing BS could be" each phase can do one missile!
    (like the sentence in the PDF: Illuminator enslavement for semi-active missiles, that just means it can assign an illuminator)
    The PDF does not mention mutiple missiles.
    Barak-NG which will use INS cum mid course updates till it reaches terminal stage when it opens up its active radar seeker
    That's the same concept as Aster.
    In this concept you make the radar a "consumable". After the hit, it's gone.
    So there will always be a simple radar inside, also because it has to run on battery. There is just not much power! Jamming becomes real easy. A lot of space inside the missile becomes transmitter, battery or processing and there is no space left for "BANG".
    That's why Aster uses the pif-paf to get a head-on kill (instead of near-kill like a missile with a decent warhead).
    Plus you have to transport all the way to your target: the battery and transmitter and processing, while it does not contribute to you objective: to bring "BANG" to the target.

    From a missile supplier point of view, these are great missiles: expensive, margin, re-supply, it's like HP does with your printer. The printer is almost for free, cost of ownership is extreme high.
    That does not care if you are a peacefull country, but if you ever think to use your missile: buyers beware!

    drawbacks of this multiple beam tech
    Multibeam, Yes there are: You need extreme good radar engineers and a long radar history to start with. In the RNLN there was the first (rotating) multi-beam radar on the M-frigates, in the German navy on their F123, so that's developed more than 20 years ago. A radar with full doppler processing, a more expensive solution. You need a bunch of power, hard to generate even with a TWT in those years, while at that time most radar had still a magnatron.
    Nowedays generated by powerbooks, easier to do, but still you need the skills.
    Pencil beam radar do have the freedom of look back and forward. that does look as a big advantage, but in generally, it is'nt. The drive goes on and if you look back, you can't do your regular volume search.
    Now if you have a lot of surplus budget, that would not be a problem. But with technology of today, you can hardly generate enough pencils for a long range volume seach.

    The look-back tricks are like my wife, she spends the money of the next month, already now!

    The SPY-1 has no problem to track a ballistic missile, the problem is: where to find it!
    The US uses satellite allerts to know a ballistic missile launch (from sat, to US, to ship), and then they know where to find a missile and to track it.
    The multibeam SMART-L has proven, that you even can detect ballistic missiles (see f.i. recent press anouncement)

    Also S-Band offers better performance under ECM than L-Band
    Don't think so: Do some enquiry on jammers, how many do L-band, how many aircraft can batlle that power to jam it?

    It's not easy to build an L-band multibeam radar, it's huge, you need the production facilities, the knowledge.
    S-band technology is much more accesible in size, components etc.

    Lockheed promotes only S-band to upgrade their installed base of SPY-1 radars.
    Plus as said before active phased array L-band is impracticle on navy ships smaller than a DD1000, imagine a square of SMART-L's, it's 8x8 meter.

    The discussion of active versus passive is a backfield discussion to me.
    For a long time there where steam train's still in use to transport coals. That was oke.
    In the UK there was even for a long time an additional guy on the train for the coals, while they use already electricity.
    That's a kind of resistance to change that's well known.

    The performance of active phased array is defined by software (as my car nowedays) If you don't understand radar, you can not write he software.
    Software engineering principles and quality nowedays is on a much higher level than the days of software for SPY-1 (just a little bit software compared to radars of today).
    That now became spaghetti software. (not mine, but judgement from NAVSEA)
    Last edited by 7seas; 9th January 2007 at 00:15.
    Have a nice trip
    7seas

  23. #83
    Join Date
    Dec 1999
    Location
    pi::
    Posts
    63

    Even the French say it needs improvement!

    Even the French say it needs improvement!

    Source: http://www.meretmarine.com/article.cfm?id=103478

    La première pourrait inclure deux bateaux dérivés, conçus pour la lutte antiaérienne et destinés à remplacer les Cassard et Jean Bart. Les modalités d'embarquement des missiles Aster 30 et des systèmes associés à la lutte antiaérienne, une capacité très complexe, sont à l'étude. Le radar multifonctions Herakles pourrait notamment être « boosté », passant d'une trentaine à une quarantaine de capteurs.
    A google translation:
    The first could include two derived boats, designed for the anti-aircraft fight and intended to replace Cassard and Jean Bart. The methods of loading of the missiles Aster 30 and the systems associated with the anti-aircraft fight, a very complex capacity, are being studied. The radar multifunction Herakles could in particular “be boosté”, passing from about thirty to forty sensors (???? 7seas) .

    What all can read:
    - très complexe: Integration of Aster 30 is vey complicated
    - be boosté: the capability of Heracles must be boosted
    The last part of the translation is unclear to me: passing from about thirty to forty sensors.

    What are French "capteurs" ??? Any help ?


    Now for Alepou 340MB and other Greek friends:
    Οι μέθοδοι της επιβίβασης των βλημάτων αστέρας 30 και συστημάτων των που συνδέονται στην αντιαεροπορική πάλη, μια πολύ περίπλοκος ικανότητα, είναι στη μελέτη. Το πολυλειτουργηκό ραντάρ Herakles θα μπορούσε κυρίως ">, που περνά trentaine σε μια καραντίνα των αισθητήρων.

    So buyer beware
    Have a nice trip
    7seas

  24. #84
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Italy (Verona)
    Posts
    46

  25. #85
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Posts
    154
    Hi 7seas,

    the way I understand the article from meretmarine the "très complexe" is referring not to the inegration of the Aster 30 missile but to the AAW capability in general: "la lutte antiaérienne, une capacité très complexe"

    As for the boosted Herakles I think the idea is that Herakles could be used for the AAW version of the FREMM as sole radar, replacing EMPAR and S1850M in the PAAM System for those two ships. Therefor performance of the radar have to be increased.

    Best regards.

    P.S. I don´t want to divert the discussion further but you once wrote in another thread something about the (not very good as I recall) possibility to use the Aster missile system with the APAR radar. Could you please do that again. Because if I get all your posts right (I don´t know jack about radar technology actually;-)) the combination of the x and l band radars (best performance) with an active seeker missile might be advantages, right?

  26. #86
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Location
    Reading
    Posts
    10,840
    Quote Originally Posted by MConrads View Post
    Hi 7seas,

    the way I understand the article from meretmarine the "très complexe" is referring not to the inegration of the Aster 30 missile but to the AAW capability in general: "la lutte antiaérienne, une capacité très complexe"
    ...
    That's how I read it.

  27. #87
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Brighton - UK
    Posts
    6

    First Post

    Hi Guys, really interesting topic - especially interested in the Radars discussed.

    The info i have on the Sea Giraffe is the following
    Top Weight: 640Kg
    Total Weight: 2050Kg
    Rotation speed of:30rpm - long distance search

    60 rpm - close in

    Been looking at the smart-s Mk2 but cant seem to find any weights for it. Anyone seen any?

    Another possibility is the Spector which is the cut down version of SAMPSON but i'm not sure how far down the line BAE are with the development of this?!?

    Anyways - Regards all, i will hopefully become a regular poster!

    Streety

  28. #88
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Posts
    42
    The only difference between Aster 15 and Aster 30 is the size of the booster. If Herakles can guide Aster 15, it will be able to guide Aster 30, it will not be more complicated.

    Maybe Herakles cannot guide Aster 30 to his maximum range, but I personally think it is not a big problem. The Aster 15 has an official max range of 30 km so the Aster 30 could be use for shots >30km and shots <<max range of Aster 30. And It would give the missile a good probability kill because maximum range missile shots have a lower PK.

    In his current version, Herakles is good for self defense but for a AAW fregate, the French Navy want a bigger version of the Herakles (named Herakles improved ?) for self defense+area defense duty.
    The reason is there will not be a 3rd mast for the long range S1850M antenna if the FREMM AAW is built (good for discretion ! one mast less !).
    The Fremm from number 9 to the last one will have only one mast. Transmissions + 3D MFR Herakles on the same mast.

  29. #89
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Posts
    20
    Been looking at the smart-s Mk2 but cant seem to find any weights for it. Anyone seen any?
    The information pdf file of the Smart-s Mk2 on the Thales' website doesn't state the weight. But with an internet archive I found the old pdf-file of the Mk1:

    Width Height Depth Weight
    (mm) (mm) (mm) (kg)
    Antenna system ø5300 * 2050 - 1500
    Transmitter cabinet 2060 1990 840 1300
    Processing cabinet 1773 1925 766 710
    Hydraulic power unit 640 1900 910 450
    Waveguide drier 670 716 650 83

    As the Mk2 doesn't need the three latter, it weighs about 2800kg I guess.

  30. #90
    Join Date
    Dec 1999
    Location
    pi::
    Posts
    63
    To MConrads,
    Yes your right, the translation must be: the AAW capability is very complex.
    Strange sentence: After the Horizon one would expect that they understand the AAW domain, and have a solution for it.

    (b.t.w. I just installed Firefox 2.001, it has a spelling checker included while I'm typing, great!).

    Before I go to your question, please let me ask you one.
    Can you give us the center height of the Herakles antenna on the FR FREMM and the EMPAR antenna on the IT FREMM ?
    To do a radar horizon calculation.

    To MConrads and others:
    Back to radar.
    Take an RNLN M-frigate (in service '91)
    It samples the outside world with it's LW08 L-band radar in 2D. (3D on long range is almost useless because on long range everything has a low elevation as seen from your ship. So you don't win a lot if you need to assign a tracker.)
    It samples the outside world with it's SMART-S, S-band 3D radar up to medium range.
    For surface and low-E: Scout I band, 2D.
    In case of a hostile activity, it samples that also with the STIR I-band (low part of X, around 8-10Ghz) or K-band ( around 20-24Ghz) plus zoom TV/IR
    Imagine: an M-frigate is able to take at least 3 different frequency samples of a threat, up to 7. (I ignore ESM, because FREMM has it also)
    So it covers a wide part of the spectrum, for all weather conditions, environments & object sizes.

    Now take a FR FREMM. It samples only in S-band. Bad weather conditions for S-band? .... sorry, reduced capability FREMM. Bearing motor down ....... sorry, FREMM out of order. Rotary joint ? Processing rack down ? ....... sorry, you got it.
    If you fire the missile, in the end-game it activates it's Ku-band (16Ghz) seeker. Here it is:

    http://www.mbda.net/mbda/site/FO/scr...EN&noeu_id=155
    From that moment on, you get for a very short time your second frequency sample in the 16Ghz band.
    Now if the seeker does stupid things, you will see that Heracles is just looking in the other direction and can't correct the missile.
    I assume (correct me if wrong) that the end game takes some 2-4 seconds.
    If it's longer, a fighter has all the time to jam the seeker head.
    And you don't need much jamming power&intelligence to jam a battery driven TWT with white noise. If Aster uses a mode of "home on jammer", the second fighter will always escape! Advanced attack missiles will use the same trick when they are fired in a salvo.
    In a complicated littoral environment there will be many objects that will distract the attention of the missile. Many sources can take care of jamming or misleading.

    So the strange thing is, in time of cold war, at open oceans an active missile was useful for massive attacks, but it was not there for long range.
    Now cold war is over, the operational area is in the littorals, a much more complicated environment, some try to advocate missiles that know where to go.

    That's my main point: Aster is a solution by technicians for a problem that (mainly) disappeared while they where inventing the solution: inertia!

    That's while I believe in semi-active as the best current solution in the littorals.
    So a combination of semi-active and active could bring some news on the table, IMHO SM-6 can do that. But it will take a long time before such a missile is mature (as Aster does).

    The radar suite is all about probability of detection and a derivative of the missile selection.
    For self defense you don't care about aircrafts some 400 Km away.

    If your missiles has some 15Km range then the rule of thumb is ready for engagement at 30km, target conformation at 60Km, sustained situational awareness 120Km.
    This is impossible for sea skimmers of coarse. Radar horizon will be around 24Km in average. For that, extreme high probability of detection (Pd) and extreme low false alarm (Pfa) rate enables your safe trip home.
    That means you need a high frequency (in the sense of repeating) capability that searches the horizon. A sustained 1Hz is not bad. If your radar horizon is shorter, you need to compensate that with a higher update frequency. Pd and Pfa become even more important!

    Will be continued!
    In the next episodes of how to pimp your FREMM:
    - radar waves and sea waves
    - how to avoid interference between both
    - how to improve Pd
    - how to reduce Pfa
    - the elephant and the bucket
    - how push the radar horizon away
    - typical objects in a littoral environment
    - multi sensor fusion
    - the role of NEC
    - the maturity of a missile
    and many more to come.
    Stay tuned!
    Last edited by 7seas; 11th January 2007 at 00:55.
    Have a nice trip
    7seas

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

- Part of the    Network -

KEY AERO AVIATION NEWS

MAGAZINES

AVIATION FORUM

SHOP

 

WEBSITES