Pakistan Air Force

[broncho]

http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default...-2-2007_pg7_26

PAF Mirage crashes, pilot safe

LAHORE: A Pakistan Air Force (PAF) Mirage fighter jet crashed at Machiwal near Jhang on Wednesday night, Geo television quoted PAF spokesman as saying. The pilot ejected safely. The plane took off from Shorkot air base for a routine operational flight, the spokesman told the channel. According to the channel PAF has launched an enquiry into the accident. daily times monitor

[Tango III]

U.S. gives eight Cobra helicopters to Pakistan

Feb 2, 2007 — ISLAMABAD (Reuters) -The United States handed over eight Cobra attack helicopters on Friday to Pakistan, which is under growing pressure to stop Taliban guerrillas crossing into Afghanistan to fight NATO forces.

Pakistani army helicopters, including Cobras, struck a suspected Taliban and al Qaeda hideout in the South Waziristan tribal region last month, killing up to 20 militants, according to intelligence sources.

Around 80 men and boys were killed in October by a similar strike on a militant-linked madrasa, or Islamic school, in another tribal agency on the border.

The eight AH1-F Cobras, equipped for night flying, are part of a $50-million foreign military sales program that will provide 20 refurbished helicopters to the Pakistani army.

"These helicopters are important weapons in our common fight against terrorism," U.S. Ambassador Ryan C. Crocker said at the handing-over ceremony in the garrison town of Rawalpindi.

Pakistan had already acquired 19 Cobras from the United States, a U.S. embassy statement said.

Crocker said the Cobras and the sale of F-16 warplanes to Islamabad agreed late last year "demonstrated the long-term commitment of the United States to all aspects of our strategic partnership with Pakistan."

In June 2004, the United States declared Pakistan to be a major non-NATO ally, making it easier to supply arms.

Relations between the United States and Pakistan have once again come under scrutiny, because of comments by U.S. and Afghan officials that the Taliban has bases in Pakistan.

A U.S. bill which was passed in the House of Representatives and is due to go to the Senate has proposed linking military aid to Pakistan to its efforts to tackle Taliban.

The U.S. embassy said this week the Bush administration was opposed to provisions in the bill on linking military aid.

Pakistan concedes there are Taliban fighters on its soil, but insists the insurgency is based in Afghanistan.

http://www.abcnews.go.com/Politics/wireStory?id=2844148

[Nick_76]

Posted by Johann on BR

I had wanted to post an updated list of major US arms sales to Pakistan since 2001, and was wondering where to put it.

PA
-26 x Bell 412EP utility helicopters [$230m US financed lease. Deliveries JUN 2004-05. Textron.]
-3330 x Falcon II infantry & vehicle tactical radio systems [$68m US financed sale, FEB 2005. Harris]
- spare parts for Mi-17 medium lift helicopters [$5.2m, General Dynamics, SEP 2006]
- 20 x AH-1F Cobra attack helicopters [excess defence articles, refurbished by LSI. 8 x delivered JAN 2007]

INTERIOR MINISTRY
- 10 x Bell Huey II utility helicopters [grant aid from State Dept. for Afghan border surveillance]

PAF
- 12 x F-16C Block 52 + 6 x F-16D Block 52 fighter aircraft [$144m, DEC 2006, Lockheed-Martin]
- 24 x F-16A + 10 x F-16B Block 15 MLU kits [$161.3m , DEC 2006, Lockheed-Martin]
- 54 x AN/APG-68 (V) 9 Radar Systems [$49m, NOV 2006, Northtrop-Grumman ]
- 6 x C-130E transport aircraft [$64m US financed sale, SEP 2004. Lockheed-Martin.]
- 6 x AN/TPS-77 mobile air surveillance radars [$89m US financed sale, OCT 2005. Lockheed-Martin]
- 500 x AIM-120C-5 air-to-air missiles [$269.6m, Raytheon, NOV 2006]
- upgrades for 310 AIM-9M air-to-air missiles to AIM-9M-8/9s [$5.8m US financed sale, DEC 2006. Raytheon]
- 300 x AIM-9M Sidewinder within-visual-range air-to-air missiles [$29.4m US financed sale, OCT 2005. Raytheon]
- 2 x F-16A Falcon fighter aircraft [Excess Defense Articles grant delivered JAN 2006]
-19 x T-37B intermediate jet trainers [Excess Defense Articles grant, 2003?]


PN
- depot maintenance for 2 x P-3Cs in Pakistan [$11m, JAN 2005. Lockheed-Martin]
- 8 x P-3C maritime surveillance aircraft [Excess Defense Articles grant.]
depot maintenance for 7 x gifted P-3Cs [$20.9m US financed sale, MAR 2006. Lockheed-Martin]
- training program for P-3C air & ground crews [$30.3m US financed sale. NOV 2005. LSI/DynCorp]
- addition to LM contract [$186.5m modification to existing LM contract]
-50 [40 air-launched + 10 surface launched] x Harpoon Tactical Block II anti-ship missiles [$61.7m US financed sale, NOV 2005. McDonnell-Douglas/Boeing]
- Harpoon Ship Command Launch Control Systems upgrades [$6.1m, Boeing, OCT 2006]
- 4 X Phalanx CIWS [$47.2m, Raytheon, SEP 2006]

All sourced from the US Defense Security Cooperation Agency (www.dsca.mil) and http://www.pentagon.mil/Contracts/

- The notifications are basically are just Pakistani wishlists which the Americans have acknowledged.

That's less than half-way in the negotiations process.

What the Pakistanis end up getting is usually significantly less. For example notification to Congress involved 36 F-16s - they got 18; congressional notification spoke of up to 60 MLU kits - they got 24.

It is much more reliable to look at contracts and grants.

The following are Pakistani wishlists the USG have notified Congress of, but have not been turned in to contracts;

6 x L-88 Aerostat surveillance radars ($155m, Lockheed-Martin. Congressional notification in JUL 2002)

115 x M109A Paladin 155mm self-propelled howitzers ($56m, United Defense Sale. Congressional notification in DEC 2005).

14 x Falcon-Up/STAR upgrades + 14 x F100-PW-220E engine overhauls + ‘de-modification’ of 26 x aircraft ($151m Congressional notification in JUN 2006)

240 x LAU-129/A Launchers; [all Air Weaponry $650m proposed sale. Congressional notification in JUN 2006]
500 x JDAM Guidance Kits: GBU-31/38 Guided Bomb Unit (GBU) kits;
1,600 x Enhanced-GBU-12/24 GBUs;
800 x MK-82 500lbs and MK-84 2,000lbs bombs;
700 x BLU-109 2,000lbs penetrating bombs w/ FMU-143 Fuze.

3,700 x Harris HF manpack and vehicle radios ($160m, NOV 2006)

3 x (refurbished) P-3 Orions w/ Hawkeye 2000 AEW suites ($855m, DEC 2006)
3,200 x TOW-II missiles ($185m, DEC 2006)

[kursed]

6 x L-88 Aerostat surveillance radars ($155m, Lockheed-Martin. Congressional notification in JUL 2002)

Pakistan canceled the order for these back in 2003-4.

[broncho]

http://www.app.com.pk/en/index.php?o...=3429&Itemid=2

PAF fighter jet crashes near Jhang PDF Print E-mail
Written by pub
Wednesday, 07 February 2007

ISLAMABAD, Feb 7 (APP): A Mirage fighter aircraft of Pakistan Airforce on Wednesday crashed near Jhang, pilot ejected safely.
“Pakistan Airforce informs with regret that a Mirage fighter aircraft of PAF crashed near Jhang while on a routine operation training mission,” said a news release issued by the Directorate of Public Relations (Air) here.
“The pilot of the aircraft ejected safely and there is no loss of life and property on ground. The apparent cause of the accident seems to be technical fault. Air Headquarters have ordered an enquiry to probe in to the accident,” it added.

[Nick_76]

Pakistan canceled the order for these back in 2003-4.

Correct.

Pakistans wishlist as cleared by the DSCA can be found here
www.dsca.mil

Whats actually cleared by the US keeping in line with their political issues and budgetary resources allocated to Pak,'Foreign Military Financing' to Pakistan (currently at $300m/year until 2009, can be found here

http://www.pentagon.mil/Contracts/

Hence, It is much more reliable to look at contracts and grants.


There is also the possibility that a lot of the stuff even limited to 300 Million $ could be held back contingent to Pak support in Afghanistan.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...020100140.html

The Democrats for instance have raised this:

The U.S. bill, known as H.R. 1, calls for an end to U.S. military assistance to Pakistan if it fails to stop the Taliban operating from its territory. The bill has already been endorsed by the House of Representatives and will be sent to the Senate for consideration.

[MohammedAli]

DSCA list includes items that Pakistan and US have agreed upon, usually during the meetings held by Pakistan Defense Consultative Group (DCG) ... ie they would be sold/transfered if Pakistan decides to buy the item in question depending on their need/requirement/priority/budget etc etc.

[Nick_76]

DSCA list includes items that Pakistan and US have agreed upon, usually during the meetings held by Pakistan Defense Consultative Group (DCG) ... ie they would be sold/transfered if Pakistan decides to buy the item in question depending on their need/requirement/priority/budget etc etc.

Mohammad, DSCA is the first part of the process..once it gets cleared, then its up for financing. Every year Pak has a 300 Million $ cap, out of which it will have to pay a substantial chunk for financing the more expensive projects - eg the 54 MLU+New F-16s, rest is then split amongst the remaining "wishlist" in the DSCA. At this time, the US side can review & release items that they agree to or which Pak can afford, depending upon Paks priorities as well. All in all, the DSCA list is merely a shopping list, and nothing on it - bar what has already appeared on the contracts, is certain, for sure.

The financial cap apart, the Democrat congress has now introduced HR1 based on the 9/11 commission hearings to withhold military aid to Pakistan to make the Pak Army/ ISI wholeheartedly support the US in Afghanistan.

Based on the above, its possible that even the 300 Million$ pipeline from the US could close.

The alternative, is of course, for Pak to buy its arms out of its own pocket, like India does.

Lastly, if we see the list above, it serves as a useful reference of what Pakistan has actually purchased/ recieved, as compared to what items, tires it has kicked or merely expressed an interest in.

As you can make out, a couple of big ticket purchases- PGMs or P3s with AEW alone, can use up the 300 Million tranche for years to come, unless the US agrees to very liberal financing terms (unlikely, as I said above) and hence use up the quota - all the other items, such as RF TOW2As , well Pak might have to pay for them out of its own pocket, and it might prove to be a bit too much for Pak.

[Tango III]

PAF fighter jet crashes near Jhang

Wednesday, 07 February 2007

ISLAMABAD, Feb 7 (APP): A Mirage fighter aircraft of Pakistan Airforce on Wednesday crashed near Jhang, pilot ejected safely.
“Pakistan Airforce informs with regret that a Mirage fighter aircraft of PAF crashed near Jhang while on a routine operation training mission,” said a news release issued by the Directorate of Public Relations (Air) here.
“The pilot of the aircraft ejected safely and there is no loss of life and property on ground. The apparent cause of the accident seems to be technical fault. Air Headquarters have ordered an enquiry to probe in to the accident,” it added.

http://www.app.com.pk/en/index.php?o...=3429&Itemid=2

[raids13]

Thats three in three weeks???? right?

[broncho]

NO, its 2 . Tango's is a repost of what I had posted earlier.

[raids13]

ok my bad, the third crash was in dec.

[qsaark]

Mohammad, DSCA is the first part of the process..once it gets cleared, then its up for financing. Every year Pak has a 300 Million $ cap, out of which it will have to pay a substantial chunk for financing the more expensive projects - eg the 54 MLU+New F-16s, rest is then split amongst the remaining "wishlist" in the DSCA. At this time, the US side can review & release items that they agree to or which Pak can afford, depending upon Paks priorities as well. All in all, the DSCA list is merely a shopping list, and nothing on it - bar what has already appeared on the contracts, is certain, for sure.

The financial cap apart, the Democrat congress has now introduced HR1 based on the 9/11 commission hearings to withhold military aid to Pakistan to make the Pak Army/ ISI wholeheartedly support the US in Afghanistan.

Based on the above, its possible that even the 300 Million$ pipeline from the US could close.

The alternative, is of course, for Pak to buy its arms out of its own pocket, like India does.

Lastly, if we see the list above, it serves as a useful reference of what Pakistan has actually purchased/ recieved, as compared to what items, tires it has kicked or merely expressed an interest in.

As you can make out, a couple of big ticket purchases- PGMs or P3s with AEW alone, can use up the 300 Million tranche for years to come, unless the US agrees to very liberal financing terms (unlikely, as I said above) and hence use up the quota - all the other items, such as RF TOW2As , well Pak might have to pay for them out of its own pocket, and it might prove to be a bit too much for Pak.

I wish the bill is passed and sanctions are put on Pakistan. That infact is in the best interest of Pakistan. I dont understand why Pakistani Govt wants to spend so much on procuring arms from unreliable countries instead of investing the same in research and development with reliable countries like China. After Pressler's amendment, this surely is going to give a good signal to Pakistan.

[Showtime 100]

I wish the bill is passed and sanctions are put on Pakistan. That infact is in the best interest of Pakistan. I dont understand why Pakistani Govt wants to spend so much on procuring arms from unreliable countries instead of investing the same in research and development with reliable countries like China. After Pressler's amendment, this surely is going to give a good signal to Pakistan.

I think Pakisatn is heading that way.. But Orion is a good procument cost that area is the weakest of China military--Anti-Sub platform... Other than that,anything from China is fine!

[Sens]

I wish the bill is passed and sanctions are put on Pakistan. That infact is in the best interest of Pakistan. I dont understand why Pakistani Govt wants to spend so much on procuring arms from unreliable countries instead of investing the same in research and development with reliable countries like China. After Pressler's amendment, this surely is going to give a good signal to Pakistan.

What money?! The economical help (money!) from the USA is not rejected from Pakistan!

[qsaark]

What money?! The economical help (money!) from the USA is not rejected from Pakistan!

I guess you mixed Pakistan with Israel. Pakistan 'buys' most of its arms and gets few in donation.

[phrozenflame]

I dont think so if there is any information available regarding how much % of the US aid (which doesnt even covers the indirect costs of Afghan war on Pakistan) is being spent on F-16s. Apart from F-16s, amount worth of significant money has gone into purchase of other equipment too.

PAF must be concerned about the recent crash rates, They seem to be getting worse and worse, I hope they dont go as bad as undia's mig-21 crashes.

[Nick_76]

I dont think so if there is any information available regarding how much % of the US aid (which doesnt even covers the indirect costs of Afghan war on Pakistan) is being spent on F-16s.

That information is available. 144 Million in the initial batch.

Apart from F-16s, amount worth of significant money has gone into purchase of other equipment too.

The list above shows that, but the 300 Million cap only allows for a very limited amount (vs the wishlist) to be included in the grants.

PAF must be concerned about the recent crash rates, They seem to be getting worse and worse, I hope they dont go as bad as undia's mig-21 crashes.

India's MiG-21 crash issues have been solved by phasing out the earlier gen attrition prone FL's and M's. I would sugges that unless Pakistan phases out its Mirage fleet, these problems will only worsen.

[Nick_76]

I guess you mixed Pakistan with Israel. Pakistan 'buys' most of its arms and gets few in donation.

What Pakistan has got from the US, is mostly donation. The best equipment in Pak service today, is mostly donation, bar the Agostas.

[Showtime 100]

India's MiG-21 crash issues have been solved by phasing out the earlier gen attrition prone FL's and M's. I would sugges that unless Pakistan phases out its Mirage fleet, these problems will only worsen.

Precisely,and that is already happening with JF-17 coming in this yr March with initial 16 JF-17,meaning the least favour condition 16 Mirage can retired.

[qsaark]

What Pakistan has got from the US, is mostly donation. The best equipment in Pak service today, is mostly donation, bar the Agostas.

Please provide us with the proof.

[Sens]

I guess you mixed Pakistan with Israel. Pakistan 'buys' most of its arms and gets few in donation.

Wrong. Pakistan received a lot of economical help and not all have to be payed back. That allows the Pakistani government to use part of its government spendings for arms procurement. The USA are well aware, about the internal politics and proud of Pakistani people. So they does not insist similar to Israel, that all that money have to be spent on US-weaponary.

[jawad]

Sources also revealed that Pakistan would start getting supply of 18 planes of the latest version of US F-16 from next month. The test flights of first batch of F-16 Block 50/52 made for Pakistan have been initiated and the same would be on its way to Pakistan some time next month. The supply of the whole USD three billion package including 26 planes of embargoed version of A/B of F-16 will be completed in 2009. Pakistan also has an option to buy another batch of brand new F-16 Block 50/52 fitted with weapon system, but Islamabad still has to make up its mind in this regard, the sources added.
http://www.thenews.com.pk/top_story_detail.asp?Id=5690

[broncho]

http://www.thenews.com.pk/updates.asp#17902

PAF F-7 fighter jet crashes in Karachi
Updated at 1320 PST
KARACHI (By Afzal Nadeem): A Pakistan Air Force (PAF) jet crashed Thursday after hitting a bird as it approached an air base for landing, PAF sources said. The pilot of the F-7 fighter jet ejected safely.

The plane was crashed within the perimeter of Masroor base in the southern port city of Karachi, after hitting a bird as it approached the air base for landing during a routine training flight.

The pilot of the jet ejected safely before it crashed No injuries were reported on the ground.

Police and Rangers officials and ambulances reached to the site of the incident, after reports of the plane crash.

[Nick_76]

Please provide us with the proof.

Did Pakistan pay out of its own pocket for the AN/TPS-77, F-16 Block 50/2, AMRAAM, Harpoon? The answer is obvious.

Compare these to JF-17, SD-10, Bakhtar Shikan, YLC etc.

The former are generally more sophisticated, versatile, expensive and donated.

[Bandit78]

Dems threaten Pakistani arms deal

BARRY SCHWEID

Associated Press

WASHINGTON - Senate Democrats are threatening to withhold delivery of jet fighter planes to Pakistan if it does not intensify its campaign against terrorists.

The Bush administration opposed an even tougher move in the House that would condition U.S. military aid to stronger anti-terror efforts. Assistant Secretary of State Richard Boucher told a House Foreign Affairs subcommittee Wednesday the arms package should not be held out as a reward to Pakistan.

Boucher said Pakistan is fighting Taliban militia for its own good and that the United States and other nations benefit as a result.

At stake is the long-delayed sale of 18 new jet fighters, an opportunity to buy 18 more and refurbishing 34 used aircraft already in Pakistan's air force arsenal.

Three Democratic senators - John Kerry of Massachusetts, Christopher Dodd of Connecticut and Joe Biden of Delaware - put the threat in the form of a nonbinding resolution.

Its aim is to make clear to Pakistan that U.S. military assistance will be assessed in how hard the South Asian ally cracks down on Taliban forces, which are expected to launch a spring offensive in Afghanistan from havens in Pakistan, and on the al-Qaida terror network.

"We must never forget the importance of going after the terrorists before they strike," Kerry said.

At the House hearing, meanwhile, Chairman Gary Ackerman, D-N.Y., told Boucher that many members of Congress were "puzzled why we are not doing more to put in some backbone" with Pakistan.

"We would like to see a little more muscle behind the policy," Ackerman said.

In the same vein, Rep. David Scott, D-Ga., told Boucher: "I do not believe we are making all the progress we should be making." Scott said the terrorists had havens in Pakistan's border areas and "it doesn't seem we are getting our money's worth" from U.S. assistance to Pakistan.

But Boucher described Pakistan as "a vital partner and ally in our fight against the Taliban and al-Qaida."

The State Department official said the solution was not entirely a military one. Boucher said the Pakistan president, Gen. Pervez Musharraf, was pursuing economic and social reform in the border areas where terrorists have havens.

The Bush administration is supporting the effort, but Boucher did not specify how much U.S. assistance will go into it.

"We will continue to work with the government of Pakistan to develop a long-term strategic partnership that is multifaceted and committed to the peace and security" of the region, he said.

http://www.dfw.com/mld/dfw/news/nation/16854807.htm

[qsaark]

Unfortunately, US legislators are oversimplifying the things. They have no clue how difficult the Afghan-Pakistan border is. Not only the terrain but the kind of people living in the border areas. With all modern equipment at her disposal, US has not been able to 100% close its border with Mexico which is just a plain desert. However, as I mentioned earlier, this bill is a blessing in disguise. It'd be in the best interest of Pakistan if the sanctions are placed.

[Bandit78]

Us legislators saw how Pakistan pulled a Taliban #3 out hours after Cheney's visit. They know that Pakistan probably has terrorists hidden for future release. Why not use F-16s as bargain for those people? Good idea IMO.

[qsaark]

Us legislators saw how Pakistan pulled a Taliban #3 out hours after Cheney's visit. They know that Pakistan probably has terrorists hidden for future release. Why not use F-16s as bargain for those people? Good idea IMO.

You are referring to a unconformed report. Anyway, sooner or later Pakistan will have to decide how far it can go for 'bargains' of this sort. Just to clear the record, Taliban had no problem with US. However, when they were asked to surrender Usama bin Laden (or else!), they agreed to do so once they were provided with credible evidence of his involvement in 9/11.

[saf2000]

there r rumours that antonov an124 has arrived in pakistan carrying 2 jf-17s (pt-04 and pt-06). any news or clarifications?