Late Seafire Request Experts Please

**Rocketeer** · 11th October 2006, 06:57

Chaps

I am building a model of a Seafire F46, I have a question for the experts out there. Forward of Frame 8, what was the colour of the insides? The cockpit was black (compared to the normal cockpit green) but what should I paint the model's engine frame/bay area please?

**Mark12** · 11th October 2006, 09:18

Originally Posted by Rocketeer

Chaps

I am building a model of a Seafire F46, I have a question for the experts out there. Forward of Frame 8, what was the colour of the insides? The cockpit was black (compared to the normal cockpit green) but what should I paint the model's engine frame/bay area please?

Model scale. 1:1?

Grey/Green. Tank bay, firewall and bearers.

Production for the cockpit was also Grey/Green then latterly over painted Black or Night and possibly in some cases only down as far as to just below the datum longeron.

Mark

**David Burke** · 11th October 2006, 09:33

Tony - will your model have 'thin but robust' provenance?

**Mark12** · 11th October 2006, 09:47

Originally Posted by David Burke

Tony - will your model have 'thin but robust' provenance?

I think not.

The firewall and data plate are in Colchester.

Mark

**Rocketeer** · 11th October 2006, 21:10

Thanx for the info Mark12 me old.....I shall post a piccie of my 1/72nd scale model of a Seafire....dunno where you got the idea of anything else! True I have a Frame 5 to 13 Spit high back fus in construction....how is Mr C getting on with his project?

**QldSpitty** · 12th October 2006, 08:19

Have you any pics of the high back Rocketeer that you can share with us??

**stuart gowans** · 12th October 2006, 11:46

"In construction", is that where its laid in the bottom of a deep trench and 500 tons of reinforced concrete is poured on top of it?; sorry thats "under construction"

Oh and it wasn't me , my lips were sealed.

**Rocketeer** · 12th October 2006, 20:52

Originally Posted by QldSpitty

Have you any pics of the high back Rocketeer that you can share with us??

wilco soon old chap.....
busy on frame 11......
oh btw Stuart G you are a cheeky chappy!

**David Burke** · 12th October 2006, 21:10

Ahh that old chestnut Mark ! - An aircraft's identity in my book has always revolved around the cockpit. If you have a firewall great but that is just an
assembly in a similar manner to an item like a fin .

**Mark12** · 12th October 2006, 21:31

Originally Posted by David Burke

Ahh that old chestnut Mark ! - An aircraft's identity in my book has always revolved around the cockpit. If you have a firewall great but that is just an
assembly in a similar manner to an item like a fin .

David

Provenance is more than just the square area of fuselage sheet metal structure or the poundage in weight. Ownership path etc.

The current owner has much more than just the firewall.

You have your book and I have mine.

Mark

**David Burke** · 12th October 2006, 22:40

Indeed - there will at some stage in the future be an instance of someone with several tonnes of mangled 'Spitfire IX' clearly identified through provenance and another person holding the data plate - who holds the aircraft?

**Bruce** · 12th October 2006, 23:17

Already been there David.

I am aware of the aircraft remains to which you refer. The semi cockpit section is a small part of the whole, and the rest of the aircraft is a significantly bigger chunk. I, like Peter, have seen it.

There is a replica Spitfire XVI at Flixton, that uses the external skins of TD248. Thats quite a significant chunk of aircraft. However, the provenance of the aircraft shows a clear path - RAF, Eddie Coventry, Historic Flying resto, Eddie Coventry, Karel Bos, Spitfire Ltd. The skins parted at some point, but it is clear where the title to the aircraft lies. The same is true of the Seafire section. Its a nice piece, but if you used it to resurrect a Seafire, there would be so little original in it, it would be insignificant.

Bruce

**Rocketeer** · 13th October 2006, 07:10

Originally Posted by Bruce

Already been there David.

I am aware of the aircraft remains to which you refer. The semi cockpit section is a small part of the whole, and the rest of the aircraft is a significantly bigger chunk. I, like Peter, have seen it.

There is a replica Spitfire XVI at Flixton, that uses the external skins of TD248. Thats quite a significant chunk of aircraft. However, the provenance of the aircraft shows a clear path - RAF, Eddie Coventry, Historic Flying resto, Eddie Coventry, Karel Bos, Spitfire Ltd. The skins parted at some point, but it is clear where the title to the aircraft lies. The same is true of the Seafire section. Its a nice piece, but if you used it to resurrect a Seafire, there would be so little original in it, it would be insignificant.

Bruce

I would agree. The seafire lump is and always will be described as the cockpit of cos that is what it is. It could never be a claim for title or ownership of that tail number. So call the cockpit part what it is.

**QldSpitty** · 13th October 2006, 07:38

If a single spit was broken up and the resulting parts put into a variety of other reproductions or builds.Would the classification be noted as "contains parts of Spitfire(insert serial here)" to all the resulting airframes?Rocketeer,show us yours and I,ll show you ours!!We are on F11 as well..Cheers

**Mark12** · 13th October 2006, 07:59

Originally Posted by David Burke

Indeed - there will at some stage in the future be an instance of someone with several tonnes of mangled 'Spitfire IX' clearly identified through provenance and another person holding the data plate - who holds the aircraft?

David

In the case you cite, the former in my view.

It might need a legal judgement to consider circumstances, as clearly at some point the latter got separated from the former.

The firewall and/or fuselage dataplates, which make no reference to the RAF serial identification, unless written in electric pen or indelible pencil on the rear, are a bonus.

Unlike Hurricanes and P-51's, where dataplates are a commodity, it dosen't really work like that with Spitfires. I for example have two further Spitfire firewalls with data plates. A Westlands Mk V and a Supermarine Mk VIII. RAF ID - not a clue.

A 'divided up' substantial crash recovery, with two or more piles of 'mangled Mk IX' are were the problems lie.

Mark

**David Burke** · 13th October 2006, 10:02

I wasn't actually refering to a particular instance hence using 'Spitfire IX' in brackets and to be perfectly honest the trade in data plates and Spitfires in general isn't something I am distinctly fond of. Undoubtedly with the travels of in France hunting
Spitfires at present seemingly easy there might well be some interesting finds and indeed disputes!

**Mark12** · 13th October 2006, 10:59

Originally Posted by David Burke

I wasn't actually refering to a particular instance hence using 'Spitfire IX' in brackets and to be perfectly honest the trade in data plates and Spitfires in general isn't something I am distinctly fond of. Undoubtedly with the travels of in France hunting
Spitfires at present seemingly easy there might well be some interesting finds and indeed disputes!

I had assumed this was a theoretical case.

Your lack of 'fondness' had been noted.

Mark

**stuart gowans** · 13th October 2006, 13:40

As in most disputes of "ownership", it will be the man with the deepest pockets who is deemed the owner by the courts; looking at something as a comparison,another project of mine is the E type, these vehicles have the serial no. stamped into a bolt on frame forward of the engine, and on the identity "data" plate pop rivetted to the "tub".

New "data" plates are available on eb@y for about £8- or £10 pre stamped; once you have a second hand picture frame ,(and they are commonly changed in restoration) you have the basis of an identity; obviously the "donor" vehicle is still out there, but if not on a current V5 then cloning is possible.

Is it not the case that sub assemblies on spitfires are also stamped with build no's; some of my bits and pieces are stamped with a 4 digit no. including the airscoop, and part of the engine bearers.

**Rocketeer** · 16th October 2006, 18:45

A shot of some stuff for the project, more to follow

**QldSpitty** · 18th October 2006, 07:58

Cheers Rocketeer.Well I,m a man of my word.Here's our attempt so far.

Great work mate.

**stuart gowans** · 18th October 2006, 08:33

Qld, I like your rolling tool, looks like it would make light work of an otherwise tedious p*xy job.

**Mark12** · 18th October 2006, 08:43

A cunning plan?

Why don't one of you tool up and make one frame whilst the the other does ditto on a different frame, and then trade.

Net saving - one set of tooling.

Mark

**QldSpitty** · 18th October 2006, 09:01

Stuart.Yep this is the rolling machine Mk2..(the Mk1 didn,t perform well)Still needs a bit of tidying up but it works ,and the rollers are easily interchangeable so various sized channels/hatsections can be done.I got the idea off a mate of mine in England.
Mark..If we make the odd numbered frames and swap someone else who makes the even numbered frames...won,t we still only get half a plane??

Honestly would be glad to help guys out.

**David Burke** · 18th October 2006, 09:06

Problem is that one set would be built in a very warm climate and one set would be made in Britain so when the two would be mated together it would look like a poorly fitting Airfix kit!

**QldSpitty** · 18th October 2006, 09:13

She,l be right mate,thats what Squadron Green Modelling Putty is for

:diablo:

**stuart gowans** · 18th October 2006, 10:36

Originally Posted by Mark12

A cunning plan?

Why don't one of you tool up and make one frame whilst the the other does ditto on a different frame, and then trade.

Net saving - one set of tooling.

Mark

Sounds good to me; I'll get straight on to making frame 18A, if someone will make frame 8 for me.....

**QldSpitty** · 18th October 2006, 10:50

Oooohhh 18a haven't got that one.Ummm do you want a compass mount with frame 8?

**Mark V** · 18th October 2006, 10:58

Originally Posted by stuart gowans

Sounds good to me; I'll get straight on to making frame 18A, if someone will make frame 8 for me.....

**stuart gowans** · 18th October 2006, 13:58

Originally Posted by David Burke

Problem is that one set would be built in a very warm climate and one set would be made in Britain so when the two would be mated together it would look like a poorly fitting Airfix kit!

David, I thought you were going to say "one set would be made in a very warm climate, and the other in Australia"

**Rocketeer** · 18th October 2006, 20:00

Beautiful job QLDSpitty!!! Better than mine!! Dont suppose you have some of the channels for Frame 9 please!!!

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