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Thread: WS-10 article

  1. #31
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    AVIC I ALONE had produced over 50,000 engines. AVIC II ALSO produces engines. I read trade piblications. China produced more military jet engines in the post-war era than any others except the United States and the USSR.

    No one is making the claim that China is more advanced than France or Britain.

    In fact, I SPECIFICALLY said out of 191 nations registered with the UN, there are four which China is not necessarily better than. Those are the other members of the P5.

    I said China is simply more prolific not necessarily better than the rest of the P5. You can't be prolific at anything without being somewhat good at it. Unless you believe that people can doing something 50 or 60 thousand times and never progress

    From http://tzswj.mofcom.gov.cn/accessory...3013810801.pdf
    AVIC I has produced more than 15,000 aircraft of 20 different
    types, 50,000 aero engines of more than 20 categories

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by GoldenDragon
    AVIC I ALONE had produced over 50,000 engines. AVIC II ALSO produces engines. I read trade piblications. China produced more military jet engines in the post-war era than any others except the United States and the USSR.

    No one is making the claim that China is more advanced than France or Britain.

    In fact, I SPECIFICALLY said out of 191 nations registered with the UN, there are four which China is not necessarily better than. Those are the other members of the P5.

    I said China is simply more prolific not necessarily better than the rest of the P5. You can't be prolific at anything without being somewhat good at it. Unless you believe that people can doing something 50 or 60 thousand times and never progress

    From http://tzswj.mofcom.gov.cn/accessory...3013810801.pdf
    If you say aircraft engines remember England Produces lots of them, but you are claiming 55000 Jet engines! without considereing France and England produced aircraft Like the Comet, Caravelle, One-Eleven, VC-10 many of which were powered by four Jet engines, that publication seem to have a correct number because as aircraft engines including props and Turbo Props it is believeable neverthelessl Englad has lots of aircraft to power and in Jet engines well i do not think the Chinese have ever produce more MiG-21s, MiG-19s, MiG-15s, Il-28s or Tu-16s than Russia and very likely Russia must be the nations that can justify that number of jet engines but China can not.

    in fact the page never talks about 55000 jet engines but of aero engines of different categories and Types
    Last edited by MiG-23MLD; 25th May 2006 at 00:12.

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by GoldenDragon
    China has been building and prototyping turbofan engines since the 1960s -- WS5, WS6, WS6A, Number 4 Lift-fan, WS8, and WS9. The WS-10A is the latest one certified and the first for a frontline aircraft.

    China has one of the three most prolific jet engines industry in the world. Only Russia and the United States have produced more jet engines than China.

    China is in a select club as far as engines go. And even more with the WS-10A, which as the article said, being certified last year.

    WS-10A variants will power quite a few of the aviation world's most potent programs: J-11B, J-10 and J-XX.
    Check that you said Jet engines

  4. #34
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    I did say jet engines and I meant it. Military jet engines since that is what we are discussing here. Who said China built more engines than Russia? Why bring up phoney arguments?

    My statement is very simple:
    China has one of the three most prolific jet engines industry in the world. Only Russia and the United States have produced more jet engines than China.

    No one claims that China is better at building jet engines than the other four. China certainly built a lot of them. If you insist that France and the UK built more than go ahead and believe it. Who cares?

    That isn't even the argument. The argument here is about the WS-10A and the fact that China has made thousands of jet engines and supported a 4000 plane air force that is matched only by two others.

    It also had been building and experimenting with turbofans since the 1960s.

    So if not better than the other four fellow members of the P5, it certainly have more experience any other state outside the UN Security Council elite.

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by GoldenDragon
    I did say jet engines and I meant it. Military jet engines since that is what we are discussing here. Who said China built more engines than Russia? Why bring up phoney arguments?

    My statement is very simple:
    China has one of the three most prolific jet engines industry in the world. Only Russia and the United States have produced more jet engines than China.

    No one claims that China is better at building jet engines than the other four. China certainly built a lot of them. If you insist that France and the UK built more than go ahead and believe it. Who cares?

    That isn't even the argument. The argument here is about the WS-10A and the fact that China has made thousands of jet engines and supported a 4000 plane air force that is matched only by two others.

    It also had been building and experimenting with turbofans since the 1960s.

    So if not better than the other four fellow members of the P5, it certainly have more experience any other state outside the UN Security Council elite.

    England and France have more experience building jets and you have no data for how many jet engines have China, England and france built you rushed to conclusions only to claim China has built more jet engines than France or England without any data.

    You are claiming aeroengines meant jet engines something that is not correct
    in few words you are claiming something that the chinese never claimed

  6. #36
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    I rushed into no conclusion and repeated something I read more than once.

    Those are 50,000 aero engines from just AVIC I. The companies of AVIC II are the ones that build civilian and helo engines.

    Stop bringing up false arguments that no one is even arguing with you. No one claims that China is more advance than the other P5 members -- which includes France and the UK.

    If you want to believe that they built more jet engines then go ahead. Who cares?

    The point is that the WS-10A is coming from a country that has built thousands upon thousands of jet engines and aircraft and have a 40 year history of building and testing turbofans.

    There aren't alot of other turbofans or turbojets can be used to power military jets anywhere else in the world. It is only matched by the other members of the P5.

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by MiG-23MLD
    You are wrong Japan at this moment is testing the XF-7 new jet engine totally designed in Japan and also has the T-4`s engine

    Ukraine is building engines to power the Yak-130 and the new An-124 that just reopened production for Russia and Ukraine, several Antonovs use Ukrainian built engines.

    ...
    Well, well flogger, nice to see u again the XF-7 new jet engine is nice but Isn’t it currently still under test? How come you compare a non-certificated airliner engine to the certificated fighter engine already in production then draw your marks saying who at most is on par with who?

    The WS10A takes a lot of references to CFM56 commercial airliner engine, agree? If Chinese could work out such an airliner engine core to something sophisticated enough to power highly agile Su27, then it should be easier for them to work out XF-7 grade WS10 variant that can power Transport plane or so.

    The WS-9 developed by Chinese is based on Spey 202, contrary to the Japanese copy of F100, the WS9 is made on 100% locally sourced components, no single bolt or nail relying on Britons.

    Then in the Fighter area, let’s compare the turbofan Engines developed by Japan & China:

    ------------------------------China-------------------------Japan


    13000kg T/W 7-8 grade:-------WS10A------------------------F100-IHI
    9000 Kg T/W8 Grade:---------WS13(under-develop)-------------?
    9000Kg grade:-----------------WS-9
    Middle Thrust T/W 10 Grade:-----CJ2000 Core Engine------------- ?
    ---------------------------------( Ignited in April 2005)

    Small turbofan for missiles:------WS-500--------------------------?
    Last edited by Pinko; 25th May 2006 at 04:43.

  8. #38
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    Also another contributor is high-end machine tool tech that was bled to the PRC over many years ---

    http://www.christusrex.org/www2/chin...uring/pg1.html
    ( 2 pages )

    Not to mention all of the PLA front companies around the world and industrial espionage.

  9. #39
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    Also the WS-11 and the Kunlun core.

    Then there are turbojets. There is no nation outside the P5 with a list that even comes remotely close in mil-aviation engines. Even a highly developed Western nation like Sweden who is the most successful mil aircraft producer in Europe after France and the UK depends on American engines.


    Co. des. a/c dry (lbs) wet (lbs)

    Liming WP6 J-6, JJ-6, Q-5/-5I/-5IA/-5II, A-5C/K 5,732 8,929
    Liming WP6A Q-51, A-5M 6,614 8,267
    Liming WP6B J-12 5,511 8,929
    Liming WP7 J-7 8,598 12,676
    Liming WP7A J-8 9,698 13,265
    Liyang WP7B J-7, JJ-7, J-8I 9,700 13,448
    Liyang WP7C J-7I/II 9,588 13,623
    Liyang WP7F J-7E 9,921 14,330
    XAE WP8 H-6 20,944
    Liyang WP13 J-7III, J-8II 'Finback-B' 9,039 14,550
    Liyang WP13A II J-7III, J-8II 'Finback-B' 9,590 14,815
    Liyang WP13B J-8II 'Finback-B' 15,430



    The vast majority of the aircraft built in China's were military jets. Fighters in particular which meant turbojets.

    AVIC I affiliates 50000 plus aviation engines
    AVIC II affiliates 23600 aviation engine

    http://www.avic2.com/JiTuanJJ/erji_jj.htm
    AVIC II owns 81 subordinate industrial enterprises, research institutes and other organizations (including 50 percent shares of CATIC).

    Its main business scope covers the development and production of aero-products for both military and civil a-pplications, which include helicopter, transporter, trainer, attacker, general aircraft, UAVs and their related en-gines and airborne equipment, etc. Since the foundation of the P.R.C., AVIC II's subordinate enterprises have produced accumulatively more than 6,100 aircraft (incl. 660 odd helicopters), 23,600 engines and 10,000 tact-ical missiles.
    Last edited by GoldenDragon; 25th May 2006 at 05:30.

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by ELP
    Also another contributor is high-end machine tool tech that was bled to the PRC over many years ---

    http://www.christusrex.org/www2/chin...uring/pg1.html
    ( 2 pages )

    Not to mention all of the PLA front companies around the world and industrial espionage.
    MD actually built a plant in Shanghai. The industrial spying and front companies are pretty routine for all countries.

    Don't discount the Taiwanese military (there are several thousand retired ROC's military officers living in China) and Israel passing along things like the AMRAAM and Patriot

  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pinko
    .

    Then in the Fighter area, let’s compare the turbofan Engines developed by Japan & China:

    ------------------------------China-------------------------Japan


    13000kg T/W 7-8 grade:-------WS10A------------------------F100-IHI
    9000 Kg T/W8 Grade:---------WS13(under-develop)-------------?
    9000Kg grade:-----------------WS-9
    Middle Thrust T/W 10 Grade:-----CJ2000 Core Engine------------- ?
    ---------------------------------( Ignited in April 2005)

    Small turbofan for missiles:------WS-500--------------------------?
    Is the F100-IHI for F-15J? Then we can't say F100-IHI is developed by Japan.
    It's a license-built product, and the important parts are supplied by USA.

  12. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pinko
    Then in the Fighter area, let’s compare the turbofan Engines developed by Japan & China:

    ------------------------------China-------------------------Japan


    13000kg T/W 7-8 grade:-------WS10A------------------------F100-IHI
    9000 Kg T/W8 Grade:---------WS13(under-develop)-------------?
    9000Kg grade:-----------------WS-9
    Middle Thrust T/W 10 Grade:-----CJ2000 Core Engine------------- ?
    ---------------------------------( Ignited in April 2005)

    Small turbofan for missiles:------WS-500--------------------------?

    Do not underestimate Japan in the jet-engine area. IHI's also capable of producing F110-129 for F-2 under license.

    BTW the CJ2000 core is of 30kg/s (corrected)airflow class ,so that it's estimated to be a fighter engine with SLS rating of 155kN of thrust.
    Last edited by maya; 25th May 2006 at 07:16.

  13. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by dongdong2
    Is the F100-IHI for F-15J? Then we can't say F100-IHI is developed by Japan.
    It's a license-built product, and the important parts are supplied by USA.
    Both countries showed a similar way to get expertise and know-how, when it comes to advanced aero-engines.
    The difference becomes obvious, when it comes to numbers built and marketing.
    The Chinese do not have limitations there like Japan. No export-restrictions and a much bigger home-market. Japan impossed even self restrictions, when it has superior national intrests in mind. Contrary to China it has to keep in mind US-intrests too, like balance of trade, security-ties with the USA and some more. So Japan still prefers it, to buy the related expertise from the USA. Despite different claims, China is doing the same in related areas.
    When we see several hundred WS-10 in regular service in China, the Chinese can claim proudly, they have reached that capability really.
    I remember about the Kaveri GTX-35VS claims in the 90s.

    I believe the claim of China about the number of jet-engines built.
    The numbers of J-2, J-4, J-6/Fantan (twin-engine), J-7 and .... in mind and the limited life-time of the related engines.
    From the 80s those engines kept in production, when out of production in the SU already, received new technology parts and became better every year.
    I am shure that from the 90s the numbers of jet-engines produced in China surpasses those of Russia. The technology gap is closing from year to year.
    Because there is something, which could not be bought with state of the art hardware. It is trained personal and scientific, which still needs several years to get the related experiences, including some setbacks and failures, like in the USA and SU f.e. till today.

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    FWS10A(Official name "Taihang") is a 132kN thrust class engine ,incorporating some new technologies mainly designed to meet the T/W performance requirement(7.5).

    As shown in the photo:
    the 3-stage fan rotor . Each of 1&2 stage Blades has a shroud at approximately 2/3 span;The person opposite to the viewers is the chief Designer--Zhang EnHe.
    This fan is a new design and has over 120kg/s airflow capability,compared to the original design,the pressure ratio of which increases by 6% from 3.2 to ~3.4 . there's no decline of stall margin.

    the Electron Beam welded rotor is made of TC4 Titanium Alloy .
    Attached Images Attached Images  
    Last edited by maya; 25th May 2006 at 15:44.

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    another photo from the same source as the above picture.
    it's reported that the Taihang front frame is an anti-iced ,FOD tolerant structure with variable inlet guide vanes ,SPF/DB process.
    Attached Images Attached Images  

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    Other advanced features include a PMR-15 composite bypass duct;3-D aerodynamics designed 2-stage LPT (compound-leaned vanes & blades);contra-rotating turbines;Nanometer material TBC...
    Last edited by maya; 25th May 2006 at 11:22.

  17. #47
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    AB thrust of 132 kn is nice but what about max dry thrust? All these figures thrown around (especially that 75 kn claim) seem pretty low, compared to their western counterparts. f-15's engines would be prime example here. Why such relative low dry thrust for an engine that can go rather high with reheat?

  18. #48
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    Wink

    To be honest, the widely circulated data of WS10A actually is from the table created by maya, Yes he produced the below table in his War-Sky website, and this table is widely being quoted.

    Based on the table, max dry thrust of WS10A is 7100 DaN
    Last edited by Pinko; 25th May 2006 at 12:14.

  19. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by dongdong2
    Is the F100-IHI for F-15J? Then we can't say F100-IHI is developed by Japan.
    It's a license-built product, and the important parts are supplied by USA.
    There are several product that you have not mention both the T-4 and OH-1 Ninja have engines made and designed in Japan, the PX`s XF-7 Engine has been tested on a C-1, the main factor is Japan build several products domestically.

    China has built 55000 aeroengines but that include turboprops and propellers, without reliable data released of Jet engines made in England or France, the assertion that the Chinese have built more jet engines is totally baseless.

    England has been building jet engines since 1939, builds jet engines for a range of aircraft that even China can not compete from Airbus 380, Boeing 747, Boeing 757 and L-1011 to engines for aircraft such as the BAe Hawk or the AMX
    In fact just of Tristar Engines, Rolls Royce built close to 800 without counting spares, consider that 249 L-1011 were built each L-1011 has three Rolls Royce RB211-524B4



    in fact i can asure there are more T-4 built with Japanese made jet engines than Chinese jet fighters with Kunlun, why because many aircraft are basicly prototypes.



    On the picture the XF-7 engine and of the PX and CX
    Last edited by MiG-23MLD; 25th May 2006 at 12:57.

  20. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by totoro
    AB thrust of 132 kn is nice but what about max dry thrust? All these figures thrown around (especially that 75 kn claim) seem pretty low, compared to their western counterparts. f-15's engines would be prime example here. Why such relative low dry thrust for an engine that can go rather high with reheat?
    It depends on the bypass ratio. The higher it is, the more AB-thrust becomes available. (>60%)
    The best sfc of an engine is gained close to max. dry. So it depends to the mission requirement. Drag/trust-ratio most of the time. Modern TFs do not go into AB in "jump" stages any longer. The pilots are able to select required thrust with the help of FADEC. To go into burner is no longer a "sin" related to sfc at first.

  21. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by ELP
    Also another contributor is high-end machine tool tech that was bled to the PRC over many years ---

    http://www.christusrex.org/www2/chin...uring/pg1.html
    ( 2 pages )

    Not to mention all of the PLA front companies around the world and industrial espionage.

    http://www.usatoday.com/news/washing...spionage_x.htm

    China broadens espionage operations
    Posted 5/17/2006 11:57 PM ET E-mail | Save | Print | Reprints & Permissions | Subscribe to stories like this


    Ko-Suen Moo
    U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement

    RECENT CONSPIRACY CASES

    Federal officials say foreign spying attempts in the USA are increasing. Recent cases include:

    •Ko-Suen "Bill" Moo of Taiwan pleaded guilty Wednesday to charges of violating arms export controls and being a covert Chinese agent. Moo conspired with a French broker to sell China AGM-129 advanced cruise missiles, missiles, and helicopter and fighter jet engines.

    •Andrew Huang, 59, an exporter from Cromwell, Conn., was indicted May 1 on one federal count of conspiring with Chinese officials to sell $27 million in telecommunications equipment to Iraq from 1999 to 2001.

    •Four owner-operators of a Mount Laurel, N.J., business were sentenced May 1 in federal court in Newark after pleading guilty last year to charges that they illegally transferred export-controlled technology used in radar, "smart" weapons, jamming and communications to China. All four are of Chinese origin and are naturalized citizens of the United States. They admitted they falsified shipping documents to conceal the type of the technology they were selling.

    •Last July, Iranian businessman Abbas Tavakolian was sentenced to 57 months in prison after pleading guilty to export violations to sell Iran components for F-4 and F-14 fighter jets. Tavakolian sought to buy gunnery systems for the warplanes.

    •On Oct. 6, 2004, Ting-Ih Hsu, a naturalized U.S. citizen of Chinese origin, and Hai Lin Nee, a Chinese citizen, were sentenced to three years of probation for false statements. Hsu and Nee falsely labeled computer chips with applications in the Hellfire missile system "transistors" worth about $20.


    By John Diamond, USA TODAY
    WASHINGTON — China is running aggressive and wide-ranging espionage operations aimed at stealing U.S. weapons technology that could be useful against U.S. forces, according to the nation's top spy-catchers.
    U.S. counterintelligence officials have also detected an expansion of spy networks run by Russia, Cuba and Iran targeting the U.S. government and, in the case of Iran, U.S. military technology, according to Timothy Bereznay, assistant director of the FBI's Counterintelligence Division.

    China, however, has emerged as the leading espionage threat, Bereznay and Stephen Bogni, a senior investigator for U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE), said in separate interviews.

    China has "put out a shopping list" of weapons and components it is seeking to arms dealers and middlemen, Bogni said. These middlemen, often ethnic Chinese, operate out of shell companies in the USA, he said. The list includes night-vision gear, radar-evading and radar- and communications-jamming equipment, missile-guidance systems and torpedoes.

    On Wednesday, one accused Chinese spy, Taiwanese businessman Ko-Suen "Bill" Moo, pleaded guilty to charges he tried to buy military parts and weapons, including an F-16 fighter jet engine and cruise missiles.
    ESPIONAGE: A growing business

    ICE officials said Moo attempted to buy from undercover agents an AGM-129 cruise missile, which can carry nuclear warheads 2,300 miles.

    The possibility of a U.S.-Chinese military confrontation over Taiwan looms in the background of the espionage, said Ronald Guerin, the FBI's East Asia section chief.

    In a nightmare scenario, China could use U.S. technology to sink a U.S. aircraft carrier positioned to block a Chinese move against Taiwan, Guerin said. "We have to really worry about our technology being used against our (own) warfighter. That's a losing proposition," Guerin said. "This is a threat to the national security of the United States."

    A spokesman for the Chinese Embassy did not return a call seeking comment.

    Counterintelligence is a highly secret sector of intelligence and law enforcement, involving criminal investigations and classified or sensitive information. Bereznay and other officials said they were willing to discuss it on the record to draw attention to what they regard as an emerging national security threat.

    The FBI has arrested 25 Chinese nationals or Chinese Americans in cases involving the targeting of U.S. technology in the past two years, an unprecedented level of espionage compared to prior years, Guerin said. Most of the cases involve alleged theft of sensitive technology. ICE has initiated more than 400 investigations since 2000 involving illicit export of U.S. arms and strategic technology to China, according to agency statistics.

    The emerging espionage threat involves business people, trade representatives and academics in the USA ostensibly for legitimate purposes, Bereznay said. Sometimes the technology they target is highly sensitive but not yet classified, requiring the government to prosecute export violations rather than espionage

    "Foreign collectors don't wait until something is classified," Bereznay said. "They're targeting it at the R&D (research and development) phase."

  22. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by GoldenDragon
    Also the WS-11 and the Kunlun core.

    Then there are turbojets. There is no nation outside the P5 with a list that even comes remotely close in mil-aviation engines. Even a highly developed Western nation like Sweden who is the most successful mil aircraft producer in Europe after France and the UK depends on American engines.


    Co. des. a/c dry (lbs) wet (lbs)

    Liming WP6 J-6, JJ-6, Q-5/-5I/-5IA/-5II, A-5C/K 5,732 8,929
    Liming WP6A Q-51, A-5M 6,614 8,267
    Liming WP6B J-12 5,511 8,929
    Liming WP7 J-7 8,598 12,676
    Liming WP7A J-8 9,698 13,265
    Liyang WP7B J-7, JJ-7, J-8I 9,700 13,448
    Liyang WP7C J-7I/II 9,588 13,623
    Liyang WP7F J-7E 9,921 14,330
    XAE WP8 H-6 20,944
    Liyang WP13 J-7III, J-8II 'Finback-B' 9,039 14,550
    Liyang WP13A II J-7III, J-8II 'Finback-B' 9,590 14,815
    Liyang WP13B J-8II 'Finback-B' 15,430



    The vast majority of the aircraft built in China's were military jets. Fighters in particular which meant turbojets.

    AVIC I affiliates 50000 plus aviation engines
    AVIC II affiliates 23600 aviation engine

    http://www.avic2.com/JiTuanJJ/erji_jj.htm
    How many J-7/MiG-21 have been produced? up to what i know around 2400, how many J-6/MiG-19 i have read close to 3000. how many J-5 around 1800, how many J-2/MiG-15 around 800, Q-5 around another 1000
    The H-6 and H-5 won`t amount to a few hundred or barely more than thousend aircraft calculate another 400 J-8 and J-8II.


    The Chinese article talks about aero engines but hardly the chinese have built more than 10,000 Jets and basicly you are claiming that those 73000 aeroengines built meant they have changed 7 times each jet engine to each aircraft

    The Chinese article talks of Aero engines of all types and categories not only of jets
    In fact one of the most produced aircraft in China is a propeller and that is the Yak-18/CJ-5 with more than 10000 built

    Only of 136 Avro Vulcan, England made 544 jet engines, Check that only of the Avro Vulcan the british made 544 jet engines not including spares


    only of Fokker 100/70 and F28 England Produced 1100 jet engines not including spares to power 550 aircraft

    Last edited by MiG-23MLD; 25th May 2006 at 15:31.

  23. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pinko
    To be honest, the widely circulated data of WS10A actually is from the table created by maya, Yes he produced the below table in his War-Sky website, and this table is widely being quoted.

    Based on the table, max dry thrust of WS10A is 7100 DaN
    I'm afraid some of the parameters should be corrected Military power is approximately 75kN similar to F110-129.
    another obvious error is the augmentor configuration that is more comparable to the P&W F100 than previously thought ,the F110 engine.
    As a F100(-220?) shown below ,its flameholder is a combination type with one circle main stabilizer and radial ones.
    Attached Images Attached Images  
    Last edited by maya; 25th May 2006 at 16:32.

  24. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by MiG-23MLD
    How many J-7/MiG-21 have been produced? up to what i know around 2400, how many J-6/MiG-19 i have read close to 3000. how many J-5 around 1800, how many J-2/MiG-15 around 800, Q-5 around another 1000
    The H-6 and H-5 won`t amount to a few hundred or barely more than thousend aircraft calculate another 400 J-8 and J-8II.


    The Chinese article talks about aero engines but hardly the chinese have built more than 10,000 Jets and basicly you are claiming that those 73000 aeroengines built meant they have changed 7 times each jet engine to each aircraft

    The Chinese article talks of Aero engines of all types and categories not only of jets
    In fact one of the most produced aircraft in China is a propeller and that is the Yak-18/CJ-5 with more than 10000 built

    Only of 136 Avro Vulcan, England made 544 jet engines, Check that only of the Avro Vulcan the british made 544 jet engines not including spares

    How many of those ~10000 fighters were double engine?! (J-6, J-8, Q-5 ..)

    The first jet-engines had a life-time of a few hundred hours only!

    So there is nothing wrong with that Chinese claim about numbers.
    Last edited by Sens; 25th May 2006 at 23:03.

  25. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sens
    How many of those ~10000 fighters were double engine?! (J-6, J-8, Q-5 ..)

    The first jet-engines had a life-time of a few hundred hours only!

    So there is nothing wrong with that Chinese claim about numbers.
    Sens

    First see what the Chinese are saying Aeroengine means any engine powering an aircraft, from Helicopters to trainers or fighters, these can be powered by jet engines or propellers

    there are many aircraft built by China, however the point you do not have data of how many jet engines have been built in China, just aeroengines.
    many nations have more advanced engines England is perhaps the third most powerful nation in what respects jet engines, yes the english are quit advanced and they manufacture so many aircraft.

    We do not have data to know who has built more jet engines so a statement such as China has the third most powerful jet engine manufacturing capacity is first an over statement second as many Comunist statements part propaganda and third England has a aircraft engine manufacturing capacity unrivalled i can asure you that England has the third most powerful jet engine industry by far and in some areas surpasses even Russia

  26. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by GoldenDragon
    I rushed into no conclusion and repeated something I read more than once.

    Those are 50,000 aero engines from just AVIC I. The companies of AVIC II are the ones that build civilian and helo engines.

    Stop bringing up false arguments that no one is even arguing with you. No one claims that China is more advance than the other P5 members -- which includes France and the UK.

    If you want to believe that they built more jet engines then go ahead. Who cares?

    The point is that the WS-10A is coming from a country that has built thousands upon thousands of jet engines and aircraft and have a 40 year history of building and testing turbofans.

    There aren't alot of other turbofans or turbojets can be used to power military jets anywhere else in the world. It is only matched by the other members of the P5.
    You did indeed rush into conclusion why for example the RB211-535 that powers the Boeing 757 has more than 1300 engines built check even the Rolls Royce company webpaeg for that information

    Check this:
    The RB211-535 powers the Boeing 757 or Tupolev Tu-204. There are more than 1,300 engines in service which have accumulated almost 35 million hours of operation. Average time to first shop visit is around 20,000 hours.



    RB211-535

    Rolls Royce is one of the most powerful companies in the world, you Rushed into conclusion because you claimed that England had a less powerful jet engine industry when Rolls Royce is involved in so many programs that dwarfs the vast majority of aircraft engine manufactures

    In fact just Singapore Airlines has 58 boeing 777 powered by Rolls Royce, that is 116 engines alone
    Singapore Airlines (SIA) is a major Rolls-Royce customer on a global scale. In late 1995, SIA placed the largest order in the company's history for the supply of Trent 800 engines for its fleet of Boeing 777 aircraft. Since then, SIA has chosen Rolls-Royce Trent engines for its fleet of Airbus A340-500s, A380 and further Boeing 777 aircraft. Today, 63 out of 90 (nearly 70 per cent) of SIA's current fleet in operation are powered by Rolls-Royce engines. This includes 58 Boeing 777 variants, powered by the Trent 800 and the Trent 500 operated on a fleet of five A340-500s. The Trent 900 enters service on SIA's new Airbus A380 later this year. These engines, entering service on an on-going basis, are supported by a dedicated Rolls-Royce Field Service Office located at the Singapore Changi Airport.


    fromSingapore Airlines Boeing 777



    The trend that power the Boeing 777 and AIrbus 340 have almost 1700 orders
    check this and this is from 2003

    total of 40 customers have placed firm and option orders for almost 1,700 Trents, which have won over half the available engine business on new generation widebody aircraft from Airbus and Boeing. The four current variants are all market leaders on aircraft they power - the Trent 700 for the A330, Trent 800 on the Boeing 777, Trent 500 on the latest A340s, and Trent 900 currently being developed for the A380.

    from Trent market in 2003
    Last edited by MiG-23MLD; 27th May 2006 at 03:28.

  27. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by MiG-23MLD

    there are many aircraft built by China, however the point you do not have data of how many jet engines have been built in China, just aeroengines
    The data I put up was at least 73000 engines. There are twin engines for the J-6, A5, J-8s and H6 while all Chinese jets based on the Russian model change their engines constantly. China built very few civilian aircaft.

    The Chinese radials on the CJ-6A were instead replaced by parts like any other radial engine anywhere else in the world. The turbojets have to be replaced after several hours for the J-6.

    10,000 jets with a large number of them being two engined with most certainly used up 50,000 engines. There were 3000 J-6s if the average J-6 had its engines changed just twice over the course of its life, this one model alone would have used up 12000 engines.

    Both Liming and Liyang who produce engines for the J-6 and J-8 employ over 12,000 workers each. You have no idea as to the scale of the operations in China.

    England is perhaps the third most powerful nation in what respects jet engines ... England has the third most powerful jet engine industry by far and in some areas surpasses even Russia
    Who is arguing with you on this? England, like France, has a more advanced engine industry than Russia. In fact, most if not all of the Russian military engines could be traced back to the British Nene. By extension all of the thousands of engines built by Liming and Liyang were as much British in origin as Russian.

    But who the heck is arguing with you? The third most prolific military jet engine industry in the world after the US and the former USSR is China. Why bring in civilian planes/engines when you know we are talking about the military?

    Again, France and England are P5 countries alongside China, the US and Russia. No one is claiming China is more advanced than the UK in engine technology.

    But it is more prolific. It also has more capacity to build military jet engines than any other nation not in the P-5.
    Last edited by GoldenDragon; 27th May 2006 at 04:31.

  28. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by GoldenDragon
    The data I put up was at least 73000 engines. There are twin engines for the J-6, A5, J-8s and H6 while all Chinese jets based on the Russian model change their engines constantly. China built very few civilian aircaft.

    The Chinese radials on the CJ-6A were instead replaced by parts like any other radial engine anywhere else in the world. The turbojets have to be replaced after several hours for the J-6.

    10,000 jets with a large number of them being two engined with most certainly used up 50,000 engines. There were 3000 J-6s if the average J-6 had its engines changed just twice over the course of its life, this one model alone would have used up 12000 engines.

    Both Liming and Liyang who produce engines for the J-6 and J-8 employ over 12,000 workers each. You have no idea as to the scale of the operations in China.



    Who is arguing with you on this? England, like France, has a more advanced engine industry than Russia. In fact, most if not all of the Russian military engines could be traced back to the British Nene. By extension all of the thousands of engines built by Liming and Liyang were as much British in origin as Russian.

    But who the heck is arguing with you? The third most prolific military jet engine industry in the world after the US and the former USSR is China. Why bring in civilian planes/engines when you know we are talking about the military?

    Again, France and England are P5 countries alongside China, the US and Russia. No one is claiming China is more advanced than the UK in engine technology.

    But it is more prolific. It also has more capacity to build military jet engines than any other nation not in the P-5.
    It`s funny you have the idea the British have not built military jet aircraft, i will give you some data

    The british built close to 3269 the Havilland Vampire, close to 434 twin engine Gloster Javelin, 1183 gloster Meteors

    Check the Havilland Vampire were single engine, the Gloster Meteor were twin engine and the Javelin were also twin engined.


    These gives you a total of close to 6503 engines alone and we are not inclluding other engines such as those fitted to other aircraft such as the Hawker Hunter, BAe Harrier. BAe Hawk and others
    Just consider that the Camberra production in England was close 946 aircraft that will give you minimun of almost 1900 engines alone but if you add the B-57 you will see that Rolls Royce built close to 2700 Avon engines

    See the numbers i have given you and you will see that only with the Camberra, Gloster Javelin, Gloster Meteor and Havilland Vampire England has made close to 9300 jet engines

    We are not talking about replacements

    Here is tehd ata for the De Havillan VampireDe Havlland Vampire
    Last edited by MiG-23MLD; 27th May 2006 at 15:03.

  29. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pinko
    To be honest, the widely circulated data of WS10A actually is from the table created by maya, Yes he produced the below table in his War-Sky website, and this table is widely being quoted.

    Based on the table, max dry thrust of WS10A is 7100 DaN
    I hate to say this, that maya's table is Bullcrap, cooked up by someone who didn't even compare various engine data or understand the requirement for a fighter engine.

    Take a look: Max AB thrust = 132 KN and Max non AB thrust = 71 KN,
    air-flow rate = 122.7 kg/sec, non AB SFC =0.66 and
    overall Pressure ratio = 33.75.

    Non AB Exhaust gas speed = Non AB thrust/air flow rate < 600 m/s
    and that's even slower than a spey 202/203. Mind you that Kunlun engines probably have exhaust gas speed > 750 m/s and that's the figure for a fighter. If the WS10a is such an engine then it is designed for bomber, not a fighter.
    Another thing is that fuel efficiency is too low for an engine of such claimed B.P. ratio, low gas speed and compression ratio.
    Many posters on such topics think the higher the air-flow rate and AB boost ratio the better and that's nonsense; so in order to make the WS10a to look good, they must inflat some figures. Just very silly and it turns out WS10a is a piece of crap if those figures are correct. Are we amazed that with such an engine. some even claimed the J10 can supercruise?
    Last edited by Mao clone; 27th May 2006 at 15:42.

  30. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by MiG-23MLD
    It`s funny you have the idea the British have not built military jet aircraft, i will give you some data
    Who said that? Who actually said that the British have not built military jet aircraft? Why would Britain who basicaly created the modern military jet engine in the Nene not have built many jets?

    Why would you make up such stupidity and then proceed to give the obvious answer to that stupidity? Are you debating me or are you debating shadows on silly questions that you made up yourself?

    The UK is a P5 nation like China. It has built MANY jet military aircraft. It simply had not built as many jet engines as China, according to what I've read. Britain never came close to a 4000-ship air force. Western engines also don't need to be changed after short usage.

    Don't make up things up and then proceed to answer them. It's a stupid way to debate.
    Last edited by GoldenDragon; 27th May 2006 at 15:46.

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