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Thread: Any Drawings of pre-Eurofighter BAe Design Studies? P.96, P.106, P.110 or ACA?

  1. #1
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    Any Drawings of pre-Eurofighter BAe Design Studies? P.96, P.106, P.110 or ACA?

    As I understand it, BAe's last conventional swept wing, twin engine concept was called the P.96. It had big LERXs and side mounted intakes.

    From there BAe engaged in its very last single engined light weight fighter concepts, a very conventional swept wing P106A that looked a bit like a shrunken Mirage F1 and the cranked delta P106B that became the initial basis of the both Saab's Grippen and the Indian LCA.

    The cranked delta wing planform made it to first collaborative fighter proposal the ACA - or "agile combat aircraft." The ACA was very similar in layout to the final EAP demonstrator, except for the F-18 style twin tail. (A pitifully small 3-view is attached below.)

    The ACA was killed due to concerns about weight an cost.

    Finally, we come to the P.110. The wing of the P.110 mockup was cut down from the mockup of the ACA and the twin tail was also carried over. The P.110 reverted to side intakes, like the Gripen.

    The whole idea behind the P.110 was to produce a smaller, lighter and cheaper alternative to the cancelled ACA. Much like Dassault's Rafael, BAe was looking for a fighter with export potential. Sadly, I was only able to find the same photograph that most posters have already seen.

    Of course, we all know that the final result of was the British EAP demonstrator - the "grandfather" or the current Eurofighter EJ200 "Typhoon."

    It shouldn't be forgotten that BAe's last attempt at a got-it-alone national project was the P.120. The P.120 was a productionized variant of the EAP demonstrator. I still don't know whether the P.120 retained the cranked delta wing planform of the P106/ACA/P.110/EAP, or went for the final straight edged delta of the final Eurofighter.

    Is there anyone out there that can help me find drawings of the P.96, P.110, or P.120?


    (I threw in the ECF (a shrunken ACA?) the German TKF-90 images to get the ball rolling.)
    Last edited by TinWing; 14th July 2007 at 21:54.

  2. #2
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    You need Tony Buttler's Secret Projects: British Jet Fighters. It has everything that you are after and much more.
    Available now: my book Hawker P.1103 and P.1121: Camm's Last Fighter Projects from Blue Envoy Press

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    I found the some info about the ND-102 at the german forum "www.flugzeugforum.de".

    Edit: I know now(!), you wanted only info and drawings of pre-Eurofighter BAe design studies. I saw the following info and attached pic a week ago at FF, so I thought it would be time now to post them here.

    Deino has a lot of pic's of pre-Eurofighter MBB design studies.


    Quote Originally Posted by Voyager
    The ND-102 was competition draft from Dornier and
    Northrop to the MBB's TKF-90. It should become a 12 tons heavy "pure" AtA fighter, with engines to reach to Mach 2 without afterburner (supercruise).
    It did not come however over the model stage since it was planned as fighter as substitution of the german F-4 and without
    air-to-surface abilitiesin the later bidding procedure for the "Jäger 90", etc.. .
    Please excuse me for the bad translation!

    Sources in German:
    Last edited by fightingirish; 24th February 2007 at 13:32.
    Slán, fightingirish
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  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by fightingirish

    Edit: I know now(!), you wanted only info and drawings of pre-Eurofighter BAe design studies. I saw the following info and attached pic a week ago at FF, so I thought it would be time now to post them here.

    Deino has a lot of pic's of pre-Eurofighter MBB design studies.
    It's just about impossible to separate the German and British sides of the Eurofighter story.

    If I demonstrate an Anglophone's perspective, please excuse me.

    Since you mentioned the collaborative ND-102 design study I've attached a 3-view that I found - possibly posted by Deino, for all I know.

    I'm sure the Deino could answer many of the questions I have about modern German fighter concepts.
    Last edited by TinWing; 14th July 2007 at 21:54.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TDidier
    Yes, the X-31 is certainly related to the TKF-90 fighter concept. I don't know whether data from the X-31 had any bearing on the ultimate Eurofighter configuration, though.

    I've always wondered if the Germans chose to partially fund the X-31 with the Americans as an alternative to participating in the EAP with the British?

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by TinWing
    The whole idea behind the P.110 was to produce a smaller, lighter and cheaper alternative to the cancelled ACA. Much like Dassault's Rafael, BAe was looking for a fighter with export potential. Sadly, I was only able to find the same photograph that most posters have already seen.
    it's Dassault R.A.F.A.L.E

    Rafael is the Israel Armament Development Authority
    Rafael's website



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    I seem to remember ND-102 concepts that were completely tail-less, thanks to the TVC.

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    Road to Eurofighter

    1976

    Design to AST 403 (not sure of the project designation)
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  10. #10
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    1976

    P.91 (single engine) and P.92 (twin engine) swing wing projects
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    Available now: my book Hawker P.1103 and P.1121: Camm's Last Fighter Projects from Blue Envoy Press

  11. #11
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    1976

    P.158 and P.159
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  12. #12
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    1977

    P.96 (conventional) and P.103 (tilt engine STOL)
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    Available now: my book Hawker P.1103 and P.1121: Camm's Last Fighter Projects from Blue Envoy Press

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    1978

    P.96F and P.103
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    Available now: my book Hawker P.1103 and P.1121: Camm's Last Fighter Projects from Blue Envoy Press

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    1978

    P.1205 V/STOL project
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  15. #15
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    1979

    Unknown BAe project, 1979 at latest; ECF
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    Last edited by aerospacetech; 15th October 2005 at 19:19.
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  16. #16
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    1980

    ECA; P106B (P106A was conventional tailed version, no illustration)
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    Last edited by aerospacetech; 15th October 2005 at 19:22.
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    1980-1981

    P.110 is my favourite; P.163
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    1982

    ACA
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  19. #19
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    1983-1985

    EAP model; EFA (cranked delta; box intakes)
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    Last edited by aerospacetech; 15th October 2005 at 19:35.
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  20. #20
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    German designs to follow.
    Available now: my book Hawker P.1103 and P.1121: Camm's Last Fighter Projects from Blue Envoy Press

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    Great selection of pics aerospacetech, do you have any more pics of UK V/STOL projects?

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    From Deino, who posted them at Flugzeugforum.de
    Last edited by fightingirish; 24th February 2007 at 13:32.
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    doesn't the P.159 look alot like the AMX?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Prowlus
    doesn't the P.159 look alot like the AMX?
    The P.159 concept was about the same size as the AMX, had nearly the same wing area and the similar configuration. The big difference is that the P.159 was based on an afterburning Spey.

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    Talk about ironic all the AMX needed to go supersonic was an uprated spey . Wonder who participated in the P.158 design? Mcdonnell Douglas? imagine a British Bug or should I say Limey Rhino? The P.1205 really looks like the lovechild between F-16 and a Harrier! BTW Aerospacetech I see some of the artwork comes from Bill Gunston's future fighters book . Don't suppose you can scan in the rest of the wild and wacky designs for the ATF too?
    Last edited by Prowlus; 16th October 2005 at 00:41.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Prowlus
    Talk about ironic all the AMX needed to go supersonic was an uprated spey .
    It's not quite that simple. To be a truly supersonic design, the AMX might have needed a thinner wing profile. To be fair, the low weight estimates for the unbuilt P.159 seemed a bit overly optimistic.


    Quote Originally Posted by Prowlus
    Wonder who participated in the P.158 design? Mcdonnell Douglas?
    The basic Northrop P-530 configuration was public knowledge in the early 1970s.

  27. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by aerospacetech
    1976

    P.158 and P.159
    The P.159 was preceeded by the P.153, which had a smaller wing but the same configuration. I'll see if I can upload a drawing (or two) in the next few days.

    Ironically, I had previously found basic details for the P.159 (but not the drawing and the drawings for the P.153, but not the details.

  28. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by aerospacetech
    1980

    ECA; P106B (P106A was conventional tailed version, no illustration)
    The P106B was both the starting point of Saab's Grippen and India's LCA.

    Compare this cropped photo of a windtunnel model from Aero India 2005 with P106B. It's from the HF-73 thread.

    http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/sho...ighlight=hf-73

    (Rest assured, I'll upload a scan of the P106A/B in a day or two.)
    Last edited by TinWing; 14th July 2007 at 21:54.

  29. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by TinWing
    Yes, the X-31 is certainly related to the TKF-90 fighter concept. I don't know whether data from the X-31 had any bearing on the ultimate Eurofighter configuration, though.

    I've always wondered if the Germans chose to partially fund the X-31 with the Americans as an alternative to participating in the EAP with the British?
    EAP was basically based on the ACA design, I think. The X-31 was actually based on the German TKF-90 design.
    Sean O'Connor

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    TKF-90

    Some interesting art work from Dornier, VFW Fokker and MBB
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