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Thread: Pakistan test-fires first ground-launched cruise missile

  1. #31
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  2. #32
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    If Babur looks like the picture that you have drawn in flight then I know of only one missile that it resembles and thats no KH-55.
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  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by kursed
    If Babur looks like the picture that you have drawn in flight then I know of only one missile that it resembles and thats no KH-55.
    No one can possibly miss the resemblance between Babur and Tomahawk...it makes alot of sense...Pakistan certainly got something from the ones which fell in Pakistan... Love you Clinton =)

    If Ghauri was little more than a robber..he wudnt defeat an army 8 times that of his size
    Last edited by phrozenflame; 11th August 2005 at 18:18.

  4. #34
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    Thumbs down

    Quote Originally Posted by phrozenflame
    If it is Chinese..it could be HN-1 or HN-2...but ranges seem to mismatch...

    http://www.vectorsite.net/twcruz7.html
    http://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/world/china/lacm.htm
    HN-1 range: 600km
    Babur range: 500km.

    As you see all Pakistani officers including Musharaf were present at the test-site to see the first development flight of Babur. How they thought they country like pakistan could be successful for the first test ? And look at the TEL also.

    China should stop playing game between India and Pakistan. :diablo:

  5. #35
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    Lets wait for more details to come out before we associate this missile with some other. Some folks (indians) are jumping the guns here... "oh well it's china's, end of the story" WTH?

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    Well I for one do know and acknowledge that its not 'totally' indigenous as being propogated by the Pakistani authorities. But at the end of the day when these birdies will be delivering their payload, do you really think anyone would care about who drafted their blueprints? And Rajan how about asking the Russians and the Israelis to ponder over those lines as well?
    Last edited by kursed; 11th August 2005 at 19:36.

  7. #37
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    Beocouse it is china, Pakistan could never build something like this.
    It reminds me of a picture that appeared a while back showing a ver Tomahawk like cruise missile hanging in a chinese workshop, if anyone knows the one I mean could you please post it?

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by sealordlawrence
    Beocouse it is china, Pakistan could never build something like this.
    It reminds me of a picture that appeared a while back showing a ver Tomahawk like cruise missile hanging in a chinese workshop, if anyone knows the one I mean could you please post it?
    Some info here, check out the links within this thread and this one

    some pics of the "chinese" cruise missiles can be seen here but not so sure about the one called the "red bird"

  9. #39
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    The second Picture in the first post of your first link was the one that comes to mind, the similarities in general appearance are quite striking. I wonder how much Pakistan paid for this?

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    What is its CEP? and when do they plan to induct it?
    In Search Of Consciousness

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    CEP is anybodys guess, but it seems to be a fact that china aquired Kh55s from the Ukraine and there are persistant rumours of Tomahawk bits/remains/debry/failed to explode bits being aquired, so CEP may be quite good. From the big publicity event that has surrounded this I would have thought that induction is not far off now the chinese have probably completed develoment.
    Last edited by sealordlawrence; 11th August 2005 at 20:13.

  12. #42
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    http://jang.com.pk/thenews/aug2005-d...main/main5.htm

    ‘Babur’s serial production by next month’

    By Muhammad Saleh Zaafir

    ISLAMABAD: The indigenously developed first cruise missile of Pakistan Hataf-VII Babur will be in serial production by next month and the batteries of the same would be handed over to the armed forces accordingly.

    This was disclosed in an exclusive interview with The News by Dr Samar Mubarakmand, chairman National Engineering and Scientific Commission of Pakistan (Nescom) on Thursday evening.

    Responding to a question, Dr Mubarakmand said that a new test range had been developed for the new series of missile testing in Balochistan. The Babur Hataf-VII was test-fired from this range. The missile landed at the target in the same province with the accuracy of centimetres. Pakistan is the fourth country after the United States, Russia and China that has the technology of this precision.

  13. #43
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    The pic
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  14. #44
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    > What is its CEP?

    acc to Dr. Samar Mubarakmand the leading scientist of the program, it hit the target with an accuracy of centimeters.

  15. #45
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    500km. Mach 3 cruise missile for a start is impressive, loved the retractable intake.

    Looks very similar to a Tomahawk. Good job Pakistan !


    Babur Animation video : http://www.putfile.com/media.php?n=babar-animation

    Babur test video : http://www.putfile.com/media.php?n=b04
    Last edited by aced_inc; 12th August 2005 at 10:41.

  16. #46
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    > Mach 3 cruise missile

    hopefully Dr.Mubarakmand didnt mention that in press conf

  17. #47
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    probably a typo... what i suspect is all those Togos II rumours ..were partly true, what they did they bought tecnology put it in (HN-2/3 or tomohawk Copy) wala! You Have Babar GLCM

    I just Can`t Help smiling!!! WOW!

    (Why are we so confirmed about the range? is it due to Official Qouted Figure of 310miles..i belive they under-qouting the figure..world is not dumb they know where Babar has come from..Int. Laws! )
    Last edited by MiG_Master; 12th August 2005 at 11:59.

  18. #48
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    I thought Cruise missile is subsonic... Mach 3 Missile ????

  19. #49
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    none of the news reportings have mentioned speed. It cannot be supersonic. it doesnt matter whether pakistan built it on its own or bought and painted it. the significance of this test and missile is the whole strategic situation changes.

    tracing a balistic missile is easier for any given path for the ABM to take it out but cruise missile changes all of this. For Indian military this missile can be quite a headache since the launch site cannot be figured out and once this missile is airborne there is no stopping.

    As the animated video shows the lowering of airintake and wings unfolding is quite a design. This makes the missile very compact and can be fired easily from the subs. Once the Agosta's are equiped with these the whole ball game changes.

    PN has been looking for nuclear capability for quite sometime. pakistan's naval strategy has been changed and they are making changes slowly.

  20. #50
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    Your jumping the gun a bit arnt you? I havnt seen anybody mentioning a naval and especially sub launched variant.

  21. #51
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    Here is a story dating from 1998:


    Pakistanis Say They Are Studying U.S. Missile
    Tomahawk Reportedly Was Recovered After Raid on Camps in Afghanistan


    By Kamran Khan
    Special to The Washington Post
    Friday, August 28, 1998

    KARACHI, Pakistan, Aug. 27—Pakistani scientists and weapons experts are studying components salvaged from an American cruise missile that landed last week in southern Pakistan, security sources said today. They expressed optimism that they could unlock technological secrets that will advance Pakistan's missile program.

    Officials said experts associated with Pakistan's civilian and military missile programs were inspecting the guidance system, onboard computer and propulsion system of the Tomahawk missile, which was fired Aug. 20 in the U.S. attack on camps in Afghanistan but apparently fell short of its target.

    Some sources indicated that information obtained by examining the missile might be shared with China, Pakistan's ally, but officials refused to comment on that possibility.

    A Pakistani official speaking on condition of anonymity said the find was "a jackpot" that included the satellite global positioning system and other technological improvements made to Tomahawks since the 1991 Persian Gulf War. "We have missile experts who would most certainly demonstrate a remarkable job of reverse engineering" and develop technological know-how that Pakistan lacks, the official said.

    Pakistan reported earlier this week that it had recovered the missile Saturday near Kharan, about 370 miles south of the targeted camps in Afghanistan. Pentagon officials have declined to confirm that a missile landed in Pakistan or to comment on the implications for Pakistan and China which hope to acquire cruise missiles.

    The Pakistani sources noted with some surprise that the missile was largely intact when it was discovered. Sources in Washington said the Tomahawk might not have detonated because the arming mechanism is not activated until minutes before the missile reaches its target.

    Retired Lt. Gen. Thomas G. McInerney said he doubted the Pakistani claims. When cruise missiles crash, he said, "its like dropping a Waterford crystal glass. They are designed to do a lot of things, but they aren't designed to bounce. They are very fragile." What did not break apart on impact would probably have been burned by the missile's fuel which would ignite on impact, he said.

    U.S. defense officials also scoffed at the notion that the Pakistanis had gained an intelligence windfall [I bet they're having to eat their own words now ], suggesting that the Tomahawk's technology already is widely available and noting that the loss of several such missiles during the Persian Gulf War is not known to have produced any breakthroughs for Iraq.

    But a ranking security official in Islamabad, the Pakistani capital, pointed out that restrictions on technological transfers between the United States and Pakistan have been in effect for nearly a decade. Since 1990, when Washington cut military aid because it believed Pakistan had developed a nuclear bomb, information that the Pentagon might readily provide to another nation would have been harder to come by here, he said.

    "It is a gift from the God," the official said. "The country that had denied us all sorts of economic and military assistance has suddenly gifted us the weapon of choice from its arsenal."

    He voiced a note of caution, however, saying: "This will definitely enhance our knowledge about the latest missile technology, but how much -- it is too early to predict."

    Other sources also acknowledged that they were unlikely to extract enough information from the Tomahawk components to be able to reproduce such a missile. They said, however, that their need for the kind of advanced weaponry found in U.S. arsenals is limited, and that they would be happy for even limited gains in missile technology.

    "Pakistan is not the global player," one official said, adding that its defense needs are geared more toward dealing with "its arch-rival that lives next door."

    Tensions between Pakistan and neighboring India, with which it has fought three wars in the last 51 years, have been high since both nations tested nuclear devices in May. While their nuclear programs have been the focus of world attention since the tests, the rivals' competition to develop more advanced, longer-range missiles has been almost as intense.

    Officials declined to comment on whether Pakistan might share any discoveries with China, a close ally that the United States has repeatedly accused of helping Pakistan with its missile program.

    Gen. Jehangir Karamat, the Pakistani army's chief of staff who heads the joint chiefs of staff, is currently touring China. A senior official at army headquarters said today that Karamat has been briefed on the initial reports from Pakistani scientists on the Tomahawk missile. "In view of extremely close ties between the two military services," the official said, he would be surprised if the findings were not discussed with Chinese officials.

    U.S. government and private cruise missile experts said that while an intact Tomahawk would be of limited benefit to the Pakistanis, it could be of significant help to the more advanced Chinese military.

    Of most immediate concern, said K. Scott McMahon, a national security expert with Pacific-Sierra Research Corp., an Arlington-based defense consultant firm, would be the ability of the Chinese to incorporate the missile's radar image into the air defense systems it sells to such nations as Albania, Iran, North Korea and Pakistan. "It would enable the Chinese to enhance their air defense system against what is arguably the most serious missile threat out there," he said. "The air defense implications for the Chinese are something we have to be seriously concerned about."

    Experts said the Chinese have the technological know-how to study and to eventually copy the missile's guidance system, which matches photographic images of a target and surrounding terrain against the actual terrain it flies over. It also incorporates a satellite-based global positioning system.

    The Chinese also could gain useful knowledge from studying the missile's airframe material, electronics, warhead and turbo-fan engine, experts said.

    Staff writers Dana Priest and Bradley Graham in Washington contributed to this report.

    © Copyright 1998 The Washington Post Company

  22. #52
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    Pakistan Test Fires Nuke-Capable Missile

    By SADAQAT JAN
    .c The Associated Press

    ISLAMABAD, Pakistan (AP) - Pakistan on Thursday test fired its first cruise missile, a weapon that can carry nuclear and conventional warheads, a test it conducted without notifying archrival India, officials said.

    The missile, named Babur, has a range of 310 miles. The launch site was not disclosed.

    The Foreign Ministry said Pakistan did not inform India, as an agreement formalized between the two countries over the weekend on pre-notification of missile tests does not cover cruise missiles.

    There was no immediate reaction from India.

    Cruise missiles are typically low-flying guided missiles that use jet propulsion to allow sustained flight.

    The military statement said the Babur missile flies parallel to the surface of the ground, can hit its target with ``pinpoint accuracy'' and can be fired from war ships, submarines and fighter jets.

    ``The technology enables the missile to avoid radar detection and penetrate undetected through any hostile defensive system,'' it said.

    Army spokesman Maj. Gen. Shaukat Sultan said Pakistan has joined the few countries ``that can design and make cruise missiles.''

    The missile test agreement is part of confidence-building in a peace process between the South Asian rivals, which have fought three wars since independence from Britain in 1947. They also agreed at the weekend to set up a hot line next month to help prevent accidental nuclear conflict.

    -----------------------------------------------

    By Robert Birsel
    Thu Aug 11, 5:37 PM ET



    ISLAMABAD (Reuters) - Pakistan successfully tested its first nuclear-capable, ground-launched cruise missile on Thursday without informing rival India in advance, a Pakistani military spokesman said.

    ADVERTISEMENT

    Nuclear-armed rivals Pakistan and India reached an agreement last week to inform each other about missile tests but the spokesman, Major-General Shaukut Sultan, said India was not told about the test because the new Babur missile is not a ballistic missile.

    "We don't have to inform neighboring countries in this case. It is not a ballistic missile and it doesn't fall under the agreement," he said.

    The Babur, which has a range of 500 km (310 miles), is a terrain-hugging missile that can avoid radar detection and strike with pinpoint accuracy, the military said.

    "By conducting the successful test, Pakistan has joined a select group of countries which have the capability to design and develop cruise missiles," the military said in a statement.

    Pakistan and India tested nuclear weapons in 1998.

    President Pervez Musharraf hailed the test as a milestone in Pakistan's quest to strengthen and consolidate its strategic capability and said it improved the military balance with India.

    The United States said it was not concerned about the test. A State Department spokesman said it was not a surprise, but did not elaborate.

    "It's important to us that actions by states on the subcontinent are done in ways that aren't provocative, in ways that aren't threatening. I think that by all accounts the test met that criteria," State Department spokesman Adam Ereli told reporters.

    'VERY SIGNIFICANT'

    Pakistan's desire to develop cruise missile capabilities has been known for several years, said Robert Karniol, Asia-Pacific editor for Jane's Defense Weekly.

    While the Babur's payload capacity -- and the weight of Pakistan's nuclear weapons -- were not known, cruise missiles would be a significant boost to Pakistan's arsenal, he said.

    "These kinds of capabilities, particularly the submarine-launched missile, are very significant strike weapons," he said.


    "We can expect that some time in the future they will turn their attention to developing a submarine-launched system."

    Pakistan has eight operating submarines, including two Agosta 90-Bs built with French help, a navy spokesman said.

    India already has submarine-launched cruise missiles.

    Musharraf said the Babur, with its 500-km (310-mile) range, was superior to the Indian Brahmos cruise missile, which has a range of 290 km (180 miles).

    Pakistan would maintain a military balance with India even if India acquired high-technology U.S. weapons such as the Patriot missile system, he said.

    "There was talk of India getting Patriot missiles and there was a feeling that there was an imbalance which is being created because of the purchase of very advanced technology weapons," he told reporters.

    "Let me say this improves the balance. Whatever balance existed, it further improves the balance. So that is the significance of the Babur missile that we fired," he said.


    __________________________________________________ _____________

    I think these two articles should be sufice to say that pakistan's ultimate goal is to have a submarine and ship launched cruise missile.

  23. #53
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    The spokesman is not saying that there is a naval version he is saying that submarine launched cruise missiles in general are significant strike weapons.
    The reason Pakistan is able to put this weapon into prodeuction so quickly is becouse it was desighned, developed and tested by the chinese (who probably took a big lump of cash from pakistan for their trouble) who then shipped the finished ready to build kit to Pakistan where it was assembled (likely by chinese engineers) then fired. Then the pakistanis say look at us arnt we fantastic.
    The idea that pakistan developed this on their own is a joke, the only indigenous aerospace product they have is the not so super mushak.

  24. #54
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    The military statement said the Babur missile flies parallel to the surface of the ground, can hit its target with ``pinpoint accuracy'' and can be fired from war ships, submarines and fighter jets.

    Guess you missed this the first time round. Whether or not this missile was indigenously built I've yet to come across a missile whose export version hurts any lesser

  25. #55
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    I will believe it when I see it.

  26. #56
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    lord

    you wanted to see JF-17 fly, and you saw it, you wanted to see agosta being built and you saw it, you wanted to see khalid in production and we fulfilled that request as well, and you will see babur being launched out of agosta also while its submerged..... no one cares, specially not those soldiers who will be hit by it where this cruise missile was being designed tested and delivered by and how much paid for

  27. #57
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    Actually I never doubted any of that, I just have my suspicions about the ability of the Agostas to launch this weapon. But what was interesting about your list is that pakistan developed none of it.

  28. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by sealordlawrence
    Actually I never doubted any of that, I just have my suspicions about the ability of the Agostas to launch this weapon. But what was interesting about your list is that pakistan developed none of it.
    here is direct quote from Naval chief few years ago.
    Going nuclear is Governments decision. If the country has become a
    nuclear power, it is obvious that the government has to think of the means of
    delivery and most credible delivery in the history of naval power is the
    submarineplatform, Pakistan Naval Chief Admiral Abdul Aaziz Mirza said in June
    this year.

    He said in order to go nuclear the French-built Agosta 90B nuclear
    submarine have to have independent propulsion and firing system of longer range missiles and if the Government decides we will be able to deliver to whatever extent it is possible.
    Source: Statesman (India), Dec 10, 2001

  29. #59
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    Here is a reaction from Russia:
    http://www.interfax.ru/e/B/0/28.html?id_issue=11362636

    Aug 12 2005 4:11PM
    Russian experts give Pakistani missile test mixed reaction

    MOSCOW. Aug 12 (Interfax) - The adoption into service of a nuclear capable cruise missile by Pakistan can be regarded as its application for membership of the nuclear club, member of the Russian Academy of Military Sciences Konstantin Nikolsky thinks.

    "The successful test of a cruise missile is undoubtedly a breakthrough for Pakistan and its transition from a threshold state to the level of fully-fledged member of the nuclear club," he told Interfax on Friday.

    "The existence of a nuclear warhead delivery vehicle in the form of a cruise missile in Pakistan significantly increases the threat to India, aggravates tension in the region and to a certain extent builds up the threat to Russia," Nikolsky said

  30. #60
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    Older News from 2004, but seems there is a Naval variant already under the works! But the lower range suggests that this may be a different missile all together; or more likely the range stated in this article was pure speculation!

    This also means that last years tests were delayed for some reason! Or carries out without announcing to the public.

    Source: http://pakistanidefenceforum.com/ind...howtopic=35833
    Origional Source: http://www.pakobserver.net/200408/31/view/?page=1&id=3

    Pakistan to test cruise missile soon
    Aroosa Alam

    Islamabad—Quite in line with Pakistan’s stated policy of maintaining minimum nuclear deterrence profile, Pakistan is all set to achieve a major breakthrough in missile technology by conducting test of its first cruise missile in end September.

    It is believed that this cruise missile will cater to the needs of Pakistan Navy in order to significantly enhance its long-range strike abilities.

    It is believed that range of this missile can be upto 300km (within the MTCR range) and can carry both conventional and nuclear warheads. It is designed to fly at extremely low altitudes at high speeds and is piloted over an evasive route by several mission tailored guidance systems. It will have the capability to hit high value or heavily guarded targets. One of its special features is that this essentially anti-ship missile can be launched from ground, ship, submarine or air.

    The eventual addition of this strategic missile is a logical follow- up of the goals set by Pakistan as country’s nuclear philosophy.

    No official word is available to confirm the test firing of cruise missile except that President General Pervez Musharraf in his exclusive interview with Pakistan Observer’s panel at Army House on the 29th of July disclosed that Pakistan will be conducting a very important missile test no later than early October which will give Pakistan’s missile programme a “major breakthrough”.

    Replying to a question, President Musharraf said that Pakistan continues to enhance its missile programme and a major breakthrough is expected in a missile test that can take place anytime by end September or early October.

    The President however refused to share more details saying that all aspects of the test will be revealed at the most appropriate timing. “One thing is clear that there is no compromise on the national defence. Pakistan will continue to develop its missile programme” said President Musharraf. Pakistan in last four months has conducted several missile tests which included long and medium range Shaheen and Ghouri series of missiles.

    Since Pakistan has already developed nuclear tipped long and medium range ballistic missiles, it is believed that President was infact on test firing of a cruise missile. It is believed that NESCOM has been working on this Cruise Missile for years now. Pakistan is also implementing a tri-service combined Air Defence System called LOMADS (for low-to-medium altitude) and HIMADS (for medium-to-high altitude).

    Similarly Pakistan and China have been trying to jointly develop a high altitude SAM System.
    Pakistan conducted its last missiles test on March 10, 2004 by test firing two stage Shaheen-2 ballistic missiles. It was for the first time Pakistan made public Shaheen 2 which has the maximum range of 2,500 with solid fuel and can carry payload upto 1000kg both nuclear and conventional.

    Earlier Pakistan handed over Ghouri to Pakistan Army in Jan 2003 for full operational use. In March Shaheen 1 was also handed over to army for full operational use followed by test firing of Abdali. In October the same year Hatf-3 Ghaznavi missile was launched from a silo.

    If Pakistan successfully test fires its cruise missile, it will effectively counter Indian PJ-BrahMos cruise missile which has been jointly developed by India and Russia. India the other day announced that serial production of this missile will start next year.

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