China's News, Pics and Speculation Part 6

[Flogger]

GD, it's sad to read your replies since you ingnore so much of what I wrote. So again, I'm going to answer each and every one of your claim, since you didn't answer mine with counter claims - just the same old stuff. And since you wrote the same stuff so many times, I'll repeat them whenever needed. So forgive me for being a robot sometimes, but I'll write these things until they will get your proper and full attention.

In a way. But keep in mind a single thing - Israel isn't a part of the United States. Never was, never will be. We share same interests but not all of our interests are identical. We might have sold the Lavi tech to China. So what? the US can't do anything about it as long as it's not their tech. And as you can see, no engine technology was transfered. We don't know about the FBW.

Indeed the Nesher and the Fouga were French. But you said, and I'm quoting:
"Israel doesn't have an advance airframe design and manufacturing industry"
So manufacturing - the hell yeah. And these examples are perfect for that.
The Kfir, which is 60% a Mirage V and 40% an Israeli developed redesign, gave us the real first push with aircraft designs. The next project, the Arye, made use of fully home grown designs.
And that ends your ridiculous claim.

(copied from an earlier post. I ask you to take notes of my arguments instead of just ignoring them and repeating the same old "Lavi is American" story.)
Some people try to claim that the Lavi was all American financed. In fact, only 40% was American financed. The program costed 2.2 billion dollars when it was cancelled - no more than the development costs of other airplanes in the world in the Lavi's class. In 1987 the US removed its share of the cost of Lavi project. Since development was near completion, the US made clear it will not participate in the cost of building 300 Lavis for the Israeli airforce. In other words, they let us bring the plane's technology to maturity but killed the plane. Why? because they had a perfectly good idea that this plane could directly compete with their own F-16s and F-18s. Why would they finance a plane that will hurt their sales? everyone here agrees that it makes no sense. Israel alone couldn't bear the cost of production of the Lavi. The project was also canelled due to the fragile political climate of Israel at the time, and was cancelled in the vote with 12 for and 11 against, with the 12th voice persuaded in the last minute as a political move.

Not only due to politics. There was also a huge pressure by the American aviation giants.
But what I meant in that post were internal politics in Israel, in which you obviously have no idea, but they are essential in order to understand the story of the Lavi project.

No, we simply couldn't afford the money it took us to build any fighter plane on our on. Just as we can't really buy large amounts of American made fighter jets without using the aid money. Once the Lavi was out of the aid package, it was made unaffordable for us.

Nonsense. The real reasons for the cancellation, at least the main ones, were already mentioned by me.

First of all, remember that the American pressure was eventually the fact that they took their 40% of development costs. On the other hand, we could have sold what we already got and they couldn't do anything about it. Still, as Israel tends to do when it comes to arms deals, it was made under the table. That's the reason both Israel and China denied it. For Israel, the risk of losing the aid is just too great to take against a single arms deal. Dening it is the easy way out of political mass.

Before recommeding reading material for us, read this web page first:
http://www.csd.uwo.ca/~pettypi/elevo...ther/lavi.html

I'm not speaking about respect towards this opinion of mine solely - I'm speaking about respect between people.
You are more than welcomed to disagree with me, but I didn't appreciate the "shut up" part.

Even the Astra, Galaxy, G-150 and Arava were American/French?
Didn't know that.
And the Lavi was American as much as the Gripen is American. Because of your nationalistic feelings I'm sure it's easy to you to see the Gripen as Swedish with some American systems, but when it comes to the Lavi, and its J-10 connection, you refer to it as an American plane, while in both of the planes the use of foreign designed systems was similar.

Remeber that GD also claimed that we don't have experience in building aircraft. So I brought these example. At least, it seems, you acknowledge that Israel produced quite a number of airplanes so far.
The Lavi is the Israeli experience is designing our technologically succesful fighter plane. Along with the Lavi, there was the Arye, which (except concept #33) was a paper lion, but gave the IAI experience in designing local airplanes.
As I already gave details before, the IAI's transfer from the Kfir (a Mirage) to the Lavi (a new plane) was deeply routed in the Arye project. It took us over four decades of work to reach the point where we could have built our own fighter plane. While in the Chinese case, the J-10 is like a shining light in a sea of drakness - While China still produces mostly redesigns of Russian designed equipment, suddendly it came out with their own brand new 4th generation fighter plane. Personally, I don't think it's possible.
And before GD will pop up with the J-9, I'll say this: Yes, China had and has tonnes of experience with fighter jets, they also designed a few of their own or made real changes in the Russian designs, such as with the J-8II. They knew very well what canard delta configuration is, but from that, to reaching a fourth generation fighter plane with delta canard configuration, years after the J-9 project was stopped, and while it bears physical similarity to the Lavi, and in the background there are always reports in the international aviation industry that the Lavi tech was transfered to China - You may believe what you will, but I think that it's just too obvious than to be a coincidence.

Correction - the technological development of the plane was completed in 1991, when the Lavi's radar development ended. What we couldn't afford was the serial production of the plane. Also the US made it clear it will not permit any Lavi exports, as these included American technology, so it became uneconomical.

If to follow your logic, I already proved to you that the design of the Lavi was years before we got our F-16s - and yet you and GD continue to claim it's based over the F-16.

The Lavi was not a modified F-16. Yet you still have some truth in what you say - the Lavi did included American technology that couldn't have been transfered from Israel to China. The misssing of these technologies are the main reason for the redesign China had to put the plane through, and example for this is the engine - China had to replace the American engine of the Lavi with a russian engine (and that changed the intake and airframe).

Exactly. That's the reason it was made under the table and with Israeli technology only. It doesn't worth it.

That American official was more or less an idiot, because he knew nothing about aviation. The planes that took off in the time of the Lavi were the Gripen, the Rafale and the Eurofighter. They all originated from the 80s, but are they considered old today?

The term "military technologies" doesn't rule out airframe design.

Erez i agree with you almost in everything, the Lavi was a successful fighter capable to win sales even in the export markets the americans knew it therefore the americans decided Israel should not built the Lavi, the Lavi technology was transfered to China that is also true, the Americans reported and as you said even Israeli sources did, Israel has the technology and capabilities to built jet fighters, what i do not understand is the fact that Israel sold technology that can end up in Israel`s enemies hands, the only reasonable answer is that the Lavi Technology will be obsolete by the time the F-22 enters service and Israel`s Python V missile technology coupled with the Israeli upgraded F-15s and F-16s make the Lavi airframe simply unnecesary so selling the Lavi was a good way of getting money.

[edit]

Hi, pls stop argue about the J10/Lavi link any more, since no one could prvide any evidence. It's total pointless. Whether there was connection or not, we don't care.
To stop the argument. Here is a new picture of the "balance beam":

[GoldenDragon]

The Lavi was a failure and no better than the F-16? So what damage to do?

The Lavi did no damage in real life because it was a failed project. That's why the Israeli government said the Lavi was never transferred to China. You can't sell a failed project.

It is you and Erez who are fantasizing and attempting to say that Lavi was a success. You are attempting to say that the Israeli government is lying to cover up this sale of a "successful" project to China. If we take your argument, then a successful Lavi would have been damaging to the US. Why else would Israel have to lie about it?

You guys are going through bizarre contortions to explain why Lavi was actually successful and why Israel is really lying about it never sent the Lavi to China.

You said the Lavi was "successful" but it was cancelled in real life. You said the Lavi was efficient and affordable but then you said Israel can't afford it without the US. You said the Lavi went to China as the J-10 but Israel say there was no such thing in real life. You said the Lavi belongs to Israel and they could sell it as they please but in real life Israel has to tell the US it never sold it to China. You said the Lavi was cancelled under US pressure but then Israel turns around and risk US pressure by selling it to China. Every other statement contradicts the one before it. Every one of your arguments goes against what we know in reality.

The reality is Israel, as stated by the Israeli government, never offered the J-10 to China. The reality is that the Lavi is a failure and was cancelled. The reality is that Israel has never designed a successful aircraft from scratch or else we'll be seeing Israeli 4th generation a/c instead of F-15s and F-16s.

That is the only scenario where you don't need any contortions and where reality is taken for the truth and not wishful thinking and assumptions: Israel said the Lavi never went to China and the Lavi never went to China because the Lavi itself was a failed project in Israel that never went into production. You can't change history and you can't sell failure for cash (otherwise, we'd all be rich for screwing up.)

[Moskit]

The phased array radar on the Y-8 AWACs is bigger than the one on the Erieye. And the Y-8's phased array radar is mounted high to get a clear view over the wings of the Y-8.

The Y-8 is a good platform. Good range, payload and endurance and plenty of room for command equipment.

[Hyperwarp]

Hi, pls stop argue about the J10/Lavi link any more, since no one could prvide any evidence. It's total pointless. Whether there was connection or not, we don't care.

1000% agreed with edit. Don't you guys get bored of the samethings said over and over again......Just stop this stupid arguement.....all of you........I of-course, honestly don't care whether the J-10 has a lavi connection or not......don't care whether the chinese painted PLA flag on the lavi, used some lavi tech, Created the J-10 all by themselves or created by a divine power from above......All that matters is whether the J-10 meets requirements of the PLAAF/PRC (Militarily, technologically, economically).

Here is a new picture of the "balance beam":

NICE!!

[GoldenDragon]

Hyperwarp, you're right It is the same old thing we've written about time and again whenever there's a J-10 picture. I was simply in a good combative mood this week.

I thought it was a good opportunity to put some reality into certain fairy tales. Israel simply doesn't have some great aircraft industry where it could have sold a late design to China. The IAF uses American airplanes and (discontinued) knockoffs of French ones. Right now, IAI produces no fully assembled military aircaft, period.

Israel has said it never sold the Lavi to China. And the Lavi itself was a failed design that was cancelled and all three prototypes are accounted for in Israel (and used as test platforms in the same way China use Y-8s for avionics and radar so we know the Lavi is not sitting somewhere in China.)

Okay, I'm going back to the original initial spirit of the thread now.

[GoldenDragon]

Supposedly a gun designed specifically for helos.

[Showtime 100]

Supposedly a gun designed specifically for helos.

What Cailbre? 30mm?

[GoldenDragon]

The original posting didn't say. The machine gun pod for the WZ-9 is 12.7mm or equivalent to 50 caliber.

30 caliber is standard deer rifle ammo and is generally considered too light for aircraft. Most attack helos in the world have 20 or 30 mm cannons, actually.

Edit: oops, you did say 30mm. Actually the enclosed belt looks much bigger than 12.7mm. Probably a cannon.

[Flogger]

1000% agreed with edit. Don't you guys get bored of the samethings said over and over again......Just stop this stupid arguement.....all of you........I of-course, honestly don't care whether the J-10 has a lavi connection or not......don't care whether the chinese painted PLA flag on the lavi, used some lavi tech, Created the J-10 all by themselves or created by a divine power from above......All that matters is whether the J-10 meets requirements of the PLAAF/PRC (Militarily, technologically, economically).


NICE!!

The argument is good, historicaly is good to argue a fact that many are in disagreement but in a nice manner, however i will say many have amnesia when it comes to point the foreign imputs in the history of chinese aviation, even consider remind of it is utterly wrong as a historical basis.
Others deny the domestic capabilities of the Chinese aviation.

Avoid this means simply that for the moment there is not a historical well stablished account for the J-10 development and that the Lavi inputs whatever are true or wrong still are a matter of debate.


Leave it to the level of a personal opinion well simply means that neither oponent or supporters of the J-10-Lavi connection have the last word and none has become an official historical account.

[Showtime 100]

PLAAF Su-27/J-11 with mysterious Hyperwarp in the foreground

[Erez]

Sens, you're making up claims again. I never claimed that that US and Israel shared interests. Israel's interest is its survival in the Middle East. The US' interests are global with the Middle East being only one of many.

We could assume that Israel has different interests (including those detrimental to the US.) But giving the Lavi to China is one of the most damaging things Israel could do to its OWN self-interest and that is betraying the United States upon which Israel's own survival depends.

Again, Israel denies any connection between the Lavi and China. If the Lavi was based on Israeli tech (and not American) then the US has no say and Israel would have built it.

If we discount the obvious fact that the Lavi was a failed project and accept that the Lavi was shut down because of American pressure, then why in hell would the Israeli government then turn around and give the Lavi to China which would incur far harsher American pressure. The logic of the Lavi ever going to China is entirely foolish.

Now listen here, Sens. Look at the following points, I'm going to go through them step-by-step. Writing about the J-10 in Paris or Chinese students in Moscow has nothing to do with the following facts. Every piece of which are evidence against China ever getting the Lavi.

1. Israel has never designed anything that wasn't based on French or American technology. So this idiocy that Israel passed China a 4.5 gen craft is improbable. Israel is no great aircraft design/manufacturing center,

2. the Lavi was a failure. It never went beyond prototype stage before it was cancelled. If it were a success, Israel would have mass produced it. That never happened. Whether it flew with all its American components is inconsequential because Israel couldn't build it without American technology or without American money. And if sold to China, China wouldn't have been able to make it without American tecnology any more than Israel (and maybe China would have needed American kind of money also, who knows how expensive the Lavi really was,)

3. if you argue that the Lavi was a success and that it was shut down only because of American pressure then why in hell would Israel then turn around and give that same project to China? American pressure would increase immeasurably. You might as well ignore American pressure in the first place and build the Lavi in Israel.

This Lavi/J-10 argument is shear stupidity based strictly on the premise that Israel is lying and that Israel would risk its very survival for a pittance in money considering American largesse is worth many times whatever imagined J-10 payout.

Indeed, nothing changed. You still insist over your claims, which is alright, but without refering and asnwering my claims. You don't even quote me, not to mention saying something new.
It's sad this argument should end like this, because from my point of view, it wasn't any different than talking to a wall.

[Flogger]

The Lavi did no damage in real life because it was a failed project. That's why the Israeli government said the Lavi was never transferred to China. You can't sell a failed project.

It is you and Erez who are fantasizing and attempting to say that Lavi was a success. You are attempting to say that the Israeli government is lying to cover up this sale of a "successful" project to China. If we take your argument, then a successful Lavi would have been damaging to the US. Why else would Israel have to lie about it?

You guys are going through bizarre contortions to explain why Lavi was actually successful and why Israel is really lying about it never sent the Lavi to China.

You said the Lavi was "successful" but it was cancelled in real life. You said the Lavi was efficient and affordable but then you said Israel can't afford it without the US. You said the Lavi went to China as the J-10 but Israel say there was no such thing in real life. You said the Lavi belongs to Israel and they could sell it as they please but in real life Israel has to tell the US it never sold it to China. You said the Lavi was cancelled under US pressure but then Israel turns around and risk US pressure by selling it to China. Every other statement contradicts the one before it. Every one of your arguments goes against what we know in reality.

The reality is Israel, as stated by the Israeli government, never offered the J-10 to China. The reality is that the Lavi is a failure and was cancelled. The reality is that Israel has never designed a successful aircraft from scratch or else we'll be seeing Israeli 4th generation a/c instead of F-15s and F-16s.

That is the only scenario where you don't need any contortions and where reality is taken for the truth and not wishful thinking and assumptions: Israel said the Lavi never went to China and the Lavi never went to China because the Lavi itself was a failed project in Israel that never went into production. You can't change history and you can't sell failure for cash (otherwise, we'd all be rich for screwing up.)

Golden Dragon according to you the Lavi is a failure but the Chinese J-10 is basicly a Lavi with racked inlet and a more powerful engine so the J-10 must be another failure is not it? , also Russia helped all the way China and it carries Israeli missiles and Russian head seekers on it`s SD-10s.

Also look that Israel is only a tiny nation it`s population is less than 1% of what is China`s and still China bought Israeli missiles.
The Lavi was as great airplane and the Chinese knew it, besides Grumman helped Israel in the IAI Lavi airframe design that is important it was not General Dynamics as in the case of the Ching Kuo where you can see the F-16 lineage right away but Grumman who developed the F-14 but did not the F-16

[Erez]

Golden Dragon according to you the Lavi is a failure but the Chinese J-10 is basicly a Lavi with racked inlet and a more powerful engine so the J-10 must be another failure is not it? , also Russia helped all the way China and it carries Israeli missiles and Russian head seekers on it`s SD-10s.

Also look that Israel is only a tiny nation it`s population is less than 1% of what is China`s and still China bought Israeli missiles.
The Lavi was as great airplane and the Chinese knew it, besides Grumman helped Israel in the IAI Lavi airframe design that is important it was not General Dynamics as in the case of the Ching Kuo where you can see the F-16 lineage right away but Grumman who developed the F-14 but did not the F-16

Actually, Grumman only produced the aircraft's composite made parts, but didn't design them.
They were supposed to deliever the wings for the prototypes and the first batches of Lavis, and the production was supposed to transfer to the IAI's Ramta factory.

[Erez]

By the way, the Lavi's initial design, with the F404, should have looked like this: (this drawing was made by the IAI in the Lavi's first two or three years).
http://fire.prohosting.com/hud607/un...vi/lavi_01.jpg
Note the intake.
When they changed it to the PW1120, of which 70% are identical to the F100, they probably also redesigned the intake to be more similar to that of the F-16, which is also known for its good performance in high angles of attack.

[Deino]

http://fire.prohosting.com/hud607/un...vi/lavi_01.jpg
Note the intake.

Sorry ... couln't see the picture ! Could You please upload it here ???

Thanks in advance, Deino

[Erez]

Sorry ... couln't see the picture ! Could You please upload it here ???

Thanks in advance, Deino

Sure

[Erez]

Deino, I've also created an 'artist' (yeah right ) impression of that early Lavi. Since I know you are a fond of cancelled projects, I fought you might be interested in it.
It also clearly shows that the early Lavi had even more connection to the Kfir, and it is closer to what concept #33 of the Arye was. It also supports my point that the Lavi is not based over the F-16. What happened was that when the engine was changed to the PW1120, similar to the F-16s F-100, they also changed the original intake of the Lavi to an F-16 like intake.

[Hyperwarp]

PLAAF Su-27/J-11 with mysterious Hyperwarp in the foreground

Eh?? that ain't me......I don't use such primitive cloaking to hide myself....I use highly advanced Ancient cloaking......

[Showtime 100]

WS-10A or AL-31FN?

[GoldenDragon]

Indeed, nothing changed. You still insist over your claims, which is alright, but without refering and asnwering my claims. You don't even quote me, not to mention saying something new.

I didn't quote you because you told me earlier on you didn't want to reply and you said it twice. I tend to ignore people who said they want no part of the debate. Don't tell me you don't want to reply and then come back on again.

Besides which, you gave me nothing but excuses and inplausible stories. But if you want me to quote you and go through the excuses one by one, I will. After this, we'll conclude this charade.

But keep in mind a single thing - Israel isn't a part of the United States. Never was, never will be. We share same interests but not all of our interests are identical. We might have sold the Lavi tech to China. So what? the US can't do anything about it as long as it's not their tech.

This is obvious daydreaming and bullsh!t, especially in the Lavi's case. Israel has denied selling it to China. That could mean only two things: one, Israel never sold Lavi to China or two, Israel has to hide and lie and to the US because the tech is American. If Israel owned the tech and sold it to China in the open, then we wouldn't be having this idiotic debate.

Indeed the Nesher and the Fouga were French. But you said, and I'm quoting:
"Israel doesn't have an advance airframe design and manufacturing industry"
So manufacturing - the hell yeah. And these examples are perfect for that.
The Kfir, which is 60% a Mirage V and 40% an Israeli developed redesign, gave us the real first push with aircraft designs. The next project, the Arye, made use of fully home grown designs.

Bullsh!t. These three planes were respectively French, French and French. The Arye was a paper project and China had dozens of those, not just the J-9 but the original J-10, Q-6, Y-9 and too many others to name. Some of China's like the J-12 flew though. To think China needed a design from an untested and novice Israeli industry that is based on American components that China can't get is pure hubris and bullsh!t.

First of all, remember that the American pressure was eventually the fact that they took their 40% of development costs. On the other hand, we could have sold what we already got and they couldn't do anything about it.

I've never read anything so oxymoronic. Israel could sell anything it wants and the "US can't do anything about it" and yet it has to "do it under the table."

Erez. OXYMORON. It could be a joke: "We can sell what's ours as long as we keep it quiet so the real owner doesn't know."

That's the reason both Israel and China denied it. For Israel, the risk of losing the aid is just too great to take against a single arms deal.

You're going around in circles with one illogical excuse after another. The "risk of losing the aid is just too great" and yet you are claiming that Israel took that very risk in selling an US-funded project to China.

Israel denies it because it never took that risk in the first place. Grow up, kid, governments like Israel's aren't stupid or suicidally prone to taking foolish risk. And governments like China's aren't prone to spending money on failed projects. All three Lavi prototypes are accounted for in Israel - and no one is going to pay money for a few bullsh!t drawings.

Let's face it, China doesn't want Israeli "designs" they want the American and Western content in Israeli arms. China designed a lot of aircraft like the original J-10 swingwing, the Q-6 attacker and the J-9. They were highly advanced designs that China would have been able to make if they had access to American components and tech like Israel did.

So if China bought the Lavi, it would be to get access to the American technology in the Lavi because "designs" China had too many of. The ONLY way Israel could have sold the Lavi to China was to take the risk of passing on American technology.

Even you know that risk wasn't worth it. So stop imagining some great convoluted, contorted fairy tale to explain away the facts which are 1) the Lavi was a failure and was cancelled; and 2) Israel says officially that it never sold the Lavi.

[Erez]

Well GD, you said your's, I've said mine.
It's going nowhere and quite frankly I'm really disappointed that no understaning was reached between us, in any matter.

I didn't quote you because you told me earlier on you didn't want to reply and you said it twice. I tend to ignore people who said they want no part of the debate. Don't tell me you don't want to reply and then come back on again.

Be accurate, for once, ok?
When I posted that Lavi picture, I said I didn't want to hijack the thread by making it yet another J-10-Lavi thread. But since you decided to let this argument be a part of this thread, we went on.

his is obvious daydreaming and bullsh!t, especially in the Lavi's case. Israel has denied selling it to China. That could mean only two things: one, Israel never sold Lavi to China or two, Israel has to hide and lie and to the US because the tech is American. If Israel owned the tech and sold it to China in the open, then we wouldn't be having this idiotic debate.

Israel has something to hide and a reason to lie to the US. Because even if it was only Israeli aviation technology that was sold to China, that still means a lot of political mess for us. American politicians would have been jumping the opportunity to cut off the military aid. So even though we didn't violate the American embargo over China, and didn't sell China American systems, we still had a lot to risk.

Bullsh!t. These three planes were respectively French, French and French. The Arye was a paper project and China had dozens of those, not just the J-9 but the original J-10, Q-6, Y-9 and too many others to name. Some of China's like the J-12 flew though. To think China needed a design from an untested and novice Israeli industry that is based on American components that China can't get is pure hubris and bullsh!t.

Again, your reffering to my qoute isn't accurate.
I mentioned the Fouga and the Nesher, which are French, because you said we don't have experience in BUILDING jet aircraft. While these planes weren't Israeli designed, they were Israeli built.
The same with the Kfir, only that this plane includes much more Israeli technology than the Nesher.
The IAI was founded in 1953. That means that it already exists for 52 years.
I wouldn't call it novice and untested.

You're going around in circles with one illogical excuse after another. The "risk of losing the aid is just too great" and yet you are claiming that Israel took that very risk in selling an US-funded project to China.

You are still ignoring a simple fact that I've already written about here - only 40 percent of the Lavi project was financed by the Americans. That means that the majority of the project was financed by Israel, and with Israeli technologies. That gives us every right to sell it. But on the other hand, selling a sophisticated weapon system to the enemy of your most important ally, while not violating any laws, causes a lot of troubles, especially when that ally is funding the majority of your army.

Now GD, let's end this discussion before it will get even messier.
Obviously you try to take me for a foolish kid, and I don't like it.

[plawolf]

To keep things simple: From the ~200 nations no more than a dozen have the intentions to built a full indigenous aviation industry and collect data for that. The USA are in in lead by a great margin, itself is just intrested in some of the achivements of the others at best. Russia is still in a fair situation after the economical break, when it comes to "know how". The EU is the closest thing to the USA. In Asia - Japan, China and India are the "big three", but still lagging behind in key-areas. It is no secret, that China looks for a top-ten position and to take the lead in Asia. China has had an internal related break in its development from the 60s to 70s.
I do not know, how many of you are regular visitiors of the great aviation fairs from the 60s up to now? Despite the achivements from the last two decades, China has still a very long way to go to achive its national goal of a true independent aviation industry similar to the former SU, many of you may have still in mind. The main problem of China is to close the time-gap to catch-up. - So China uses all ways and possibilities to cut corners.
After the end of the Cold War the weapons-race had slowed down considerably and military hardware is no longer easy sell. Good times for closing gaps.
Many of you have no problem to claim from the Europeans to end the weapons-embargo against China. Simply to counter-balance the present dependence on Russian help. Nothing more and nothing less.
The last big order went to Boeing, it shows, that the Chinese intrest in US-technology is still alive. Despite Weapons-boycott still forced by USA.

You can blame me with ease, when you use this forum, to deliver us with some of the datas, you claim from me.

are simply no substitute for that.

bla bla bla...

just a bunch of very generalise ASSUMPTIONS, which provides ZERO evidence for your eariler claim that, "the chinese AWACS prototypes are less capable then US AWACS' from the 70s'.

to say anything else is just a waste of my time.

[plawolf]

Erez:

your last reply is so full of wholes and inaccurate assumptions it is almost too easy to take it apart. but im not going to because this is a good thread and i want to keep it alive and on topic.

if you want to say more about the LAVI, go start another thread where you move this argument.

i have already given you a way out, if you dont take it, i will be forced to bring in the moderators.

[Erez]

Erez:

your last reply is so full of wholes and inaccurate assumptions it is almost too easy to take it apart. but im not going to because this is a good thread and i want to keep it alive and on topic.

if you want to say more about the LAVI, go start another thread where you move this argument.

i have already given you a way out, if you dont take it, i will be forced to bring in the moderators.

Now this is outrageous.
My last post was nearly totally pointing out near unarguable facts.
I don't need your ways out, plawolf, neither your mercy. If you want, bring the moderators in. I didn't violate any of the laws on which this forum stands. For once, you and GD could have put your nationalistic feelings in the side and listen as civilized people to another member's opinion.
You chose not to. That's a shame, but don't expect me to cry over it. Your lack of will to listen to different opinions instead of taking them as idiotic is your own loss.
You had a good thread until this argument started and I watched it every day. But go on with your discussions, obviously you are the ones not mature enough to listen to other's opinions.

Good luck.

[plawolf]

Supposedly a gun designed specifically for helos.

ah! thanks alot for the pic GD.

i have been looking for that pic for quite a while now. it first appeared on china.com a couple months back, but i didnt save it at the time and couldnt find it again until now.

here's another pic of a suposid chinese helo gun/cannon (14.5mm).

[plawolf]

Now this is outrageous.
My last post was nearly totally pointing out near unarguable facts.
I don't need your ways out, plawolf, neither your mercy. If you want, bring the moderators in. I didn't violate any of the laws on which this forum stands. For once, you and GD could have put your nationalistic feelings in the side and listen as civilized people to another member's opinion.
You chose not to. That's a shame, but don't expect me to cry over it. Your lack of will to listen to different opinions instead of taking them as idiotic is your own loss.
You had a good thread until this argument started and I watched it every day. But go on with your discussions, obviously you are the ones not mature enough to listen to other's opinions.

Good luck.

oh, so this is how it is huh?

we were having a pretty good discussion until you showed up and for no apprent reason brought in the LAVI, which has NOTHING to do with this thread - going off topic.

i replied to your claims by systematically taking your arguments apart in the hope that you would see the flaws in your argument and end this pointless debate, and you call me 'uncivilised'?

having seen that there is no quick end to this as i had originally hoped, i have offered you a chance to either take this argument elsewhere or to quite without looking like you were conceding defeat, so that the other members are not driven away and we loose their participation in this thread. and im not 'mature'?

no wonder your arguments surrounding the LAVI-J10 link are so confused.

the moderators have been informed, and just to be extra nice, im going to start you a LAVI fantasy thread for you to monolog without boring others.

satisfied?

[Erez]

Yes, in fact.
This will end this ugly chapter in my membership in this forum.
And as I've already said before, good luck with this thread.
Please do not open a Lavi thread, as nothing is left to be said in it, not to mention people here who are willing to participate in a civilized conversation.
Best of luck.

[Hyperwarp]

When I posted that Lavi picture, I said I didn't want to hijack the thread by making it yet another J-10-Lavi thread. But since you decided to let this argument be a part of this thread, we went on.

Wait....minute.....I don't like jumping into these pow-wows.....BUT!!!

But, don't try point the finger purely at GD or wolfy....YOU WERE the one who posted the Lavi pic in the "China's News, Pics and Speculation Part 6 " and said "BTW can anyone alse see the 'family' resemblance here? "....

You have a responsibility here too....Is this the 1st time that you posted such a thing and things went out of controls? NO! Is this the 2nd time that you posted such a thing and things went out of controls? NO! To be honest....I don't think any of us know exactly how many times this has happened.....??!! There were many posts by you directly claiming or hinting at some Lavi/J-10 connections and things went complete out of control.......I am sure you know very well that the Lavi/J-10 connection Proponents/opponents never see eye to eye (and i doubt they ever will)......and yet.....you did the very same thing in this thread by posting that Lavi pic and saying "BTW can anyone alse see the 'family' resemblance here? "......and guess what!! The same old pow-wow happened again...!!

You also have a responsibility here........You could have simply avoided that post in the 1st place and none of this would have happened......

So...I say again.......You also have responsibility here not to post provocative stuff.......!!

PS:
And mods.....Pls clean-up this thread or lock-it.........so we can start a "China's News, Pics and Speculation Part 7" and forget all the Nonsense here in part 6.....

[Erez]

Wait....minute.....I don't like jumping into these pow-wows.....BUT!!!

But, don't try point the finger purely at GD or wolfy....YOU WERE the one who posted the Lavi pic in the "China's News, Pics and Speculation Part 6 " and said "BTW can anyone alse see the 'family' resemblance here? "....

You have a responsibility here too....Is this the 1st time that you posted such a thing and things went out of controls? NO! Is this the 2nd time that you posted such a thing and things went out of controls? NO! To be honest....I don't think any of us know exactly how many times this has happened.....??!! There were many posts by you directly claiming or hinting at some Lavi/J-10 connections and things went complete out of control.......I am sure you know very well that the Lavi/J-10 connection Proponents/opponents never see eye to eye (and i doubt they ever will)......and yet.....you did the very same thing in this thread by posting that Lavi pic and saying "BTW can anyone alse see the 'family' resemblance here? "......and guess what!! The same old pow-wow happened again...!!

You also have a responsibility here........You could have simply avoided that post in the 1st place and none of this would have happened......

So...I say again.......You also have responsibility here not to post provocative stuff.......!!

PS:
And mods.....Pls clean-up this thread or lock-it.........so we can start a "China's News, Pics and Speculation Part 7" and forget all the Nonsense here in part 6.....

I accept my share of responsibility.
It was a mistake by me to put this picture here. Had I knew what would become of it I wouldn't do it. Honestly, that's the truth and I'm not ashamed to say it. I was taking it more as a joke, even note the smilies. In a second thought, I guess it was provocative in the eyes of some members.
But Hyperwarp - don't try to make it look like as if it's my fault that every discussion that involved the J-10/Lavi got out of control. It's a touchy subject and everybody had/has a share in this mess.