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    Turkish fighter jets violate Greek airspace!

    TURKISH FIGHTER JETS FLEW OVER THE RHODES AIRPORT:

    New provocation from the Turkish side. Two Turkish fighter jets violated the Greek airspace and flew over the Airport of Rhodes, 150 meters from the ground. Meanwhile, the Turkish side with a statement issued by the General Staff maintained yesterday that Greek fighter jets violated three times the Turkish airspace at Gyolu Bay.

    The Greek side reacted swiftly. National Defense General Staff Chief Giorgos Antonakopoulos, who is in Brussels, briefed the NATO headquarters, while a demarche will be made by the Greek ambassador to Ankara

    link: http://www.mpa.gr/article.html?doc_id=273498

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    RE: Turkish fighter jets violate Greek airspace!

    Are you saying that the Greek AF did not managed to intercept those ******s?Shame on them.

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    RE: Turkish fighter jets violate Greek airspace!

    150 meters??? WOW!!!
    I still don't understand this situation between these two, I mean I know the history and everything but they are meant to be partner members of NATO...you know, "PROTECTORS OF THE PEACE". I must say, it would be quite interesting to see whose side NATO would take in any conflict. There will be divided loyalties no doubt.

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    RE: Turkish fighter jets violate Greek airspace!

    A conflict between the two would not last more than a week due to tremendous pressure from NATO. But who knows, anything can happen. Also, Greece would most likely have the support of almost all other countries in that region, eg Iran, Russia, Ukraine.

  5. #5
    adonis Guest

    RE: Turkish fighter jets violate Greek airspace!

    although Greek airspace is violated hundreds of times each year by turkish aircraft on all occassions they are intercepted by mirage 200-5 and F-16's so i have no hesitation in thinking that the HAF had everything under control, they knew the situation and at no time were threatend by these incursions.

    If a war did brake out and this is a big if then i would think NATO would come to the side of greece after heavy diplomatic pressure by the EU, USA and Nato. America would undoubtably have a hard job in differientiating in their priorities and although they back Turkey all the way (IMF loans, arms, trade) i see in the future America dumping turkey like an 'ol girlfriend!!!

    regards

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    RE: Turkish fighter jets violate Greek airspace!

    Wouldn't the Turkish planes have been turned back well before they overflew the airport, if the HAF had "everything under control"?

    Also, what makes you believe that NATO, and all the West would come in behind Greece in the event of a conflict? Surely they would stand back, while trying to negoiate a peaceful solution? Although if it did have to come down to choosing sides I believe Turkey is of more strategic importance to the West than Greece

    Cheers,
    James

  7. #7
    Twilight2002 Guest

    RE: Turkish fighter jets violate Greek airspace!

    Those aircraft would have MINCE MEAT if the Greek Army had had SA-8b Gecko's or TOR-M1's deployed in the area. At 105 metres you are in the NO ESCAPE zone of any defensive SAM.

    Further provocations like this will only force the Greek Army to redploy her point defence SAM's to counter the unnacceptable threat.



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    RE: Turkish fighter jets violate Greek airspace!

    Turkey is has close military relationships with Israel and Isreal is known to have developed effective countermeasures to those missle systems, its quite a possiblity this knowledge has been transferred to the Turks.

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    RE: Turkish fighter jets violate Greek airspace!

    Where is your proof , that Israel has countermeasures to the systems that Greece has in deplyoment and has given these " countermeasures" to Turkey ? Is this wishful thinking , or do you think that Turkey will now fight like a superpower because of an " agreement " with Israel ? The Iranian Shah also had an agreement with Israel .

    I don't think Israel will be foolish enough to get involved in a dispute that is not in its interests , even though the Turks may like them to .


    Further , you speak as if Israel will help Turkey openly in a conflict with Greece

    What makes you think that ?



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    RE: Turkish fighter jets violate Greek airspace!

    I did not mention anywhere that Israel would get involved in a military conflict with Greece, and I doubt anyone other than the two rival countries would be involved either.

    The Israelis have claimed they have successfully developed the ability to counter the S-300 system, whether this claim is real or not is something none of us can prove until we actually see them counter it in a war.

    As for Turkish-Israeli relations, they've existed for a very long time now, infact this link http://tsi.idc.ac.il/Bibliography.html has a list of books discussing their relationship. Not ALL military relationships involve military aid.

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    RE: Turkish fighter jets violate Greek airspace!

    The United States bought a S-300 PMU-1 sytem from Belorussia in the 1990's .


    I am sure that they have developed electronic countermeasures to the sytem .


    Whether Israel obtained this from the Americans is at issue . I think they probably did , sighting the threat from Syria , Iran etc etc .
    Have they given the codes to the Turks , tyo program into F-16 EW suites ? Probably .


    If they did , then Greece had better change the frequencies on their system ( the radar ) to stop it being jammed .

    I believe the Russians have alrdeady offred to do this .

    Now , to any Electronic Counter measure there is an ECCM .

    Greece has advanced systems that it is building on its own from technology given by the United States and Russia .

    Turkey's F-16 radars are easy to jam for example as is the ability to make decoys appear on the F-16 radar with EW systems ( These were used in Kosovo). The frequency of the jamming against the S-300 can be " stolen " by SIGINT for example and ECCM developed to neutralize it .








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    RE: Turkish fighter jets violate Greek airspace!

    How do you know and where did you get information on the Turkish F-16 being easy to jam? Not that I'm saying it isnt, but information on this is rather difficult to find, and I doubt either the Turks or Greeks would reveal too much on their electronic countermeasures to the public.

  13. #13
    adonis Guest

    RE: Turkish fighter jets violate Greek airspace!

    [updated:LAST EDITED ON 08-06-02 AT 11:40 PM (GMT)]>Also, what makes you believe that NATO, and all the West would come in behind Greece in the event of a conflict? Surely they would stand back, while trying to negoiate a peaceful solution? Although if it did have to come down to choosing sides I believe Turkey is of more strategic importance to the West than Greece<

    well Nato and especially EU are a pro-christian club and Turkeys inclusion in NATO is of a stategic interest and not a political or religious decision.

    The worlds reliance on "black gold" or oil will end someday and as soon as that happens you will see the middle east oil rich countries revenues decreasing and american aid in the region lessen. Dubya's aggressive foreign policy will result in bringing back home to USA most of his armed forces from abroad (i.e middle east, Europe, Japan, south korea). Turkey in all this will be left on the shelf and its dependancy on American help decreased.

    regards

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    RE: Turkish fighter jets violate Greek airspace!

    >Wouldn't the Turkish planes have been turned back well
    >before they overflew the airport, if the HAF had "everything
    >under control"?
    >
    >Also, what makes you believe that NATO, and all the West
    >would come in behind Greece in the event of a conflict?
    >Surely they would stand back, while trying to negoiate a
    >peaceful solution? Although if it did have to come down to
    >choosing sides I believe Turkey is of more strategic
    >importance to the West than Greece
    >
    >Cheers,
    >James

    Not necessarily . Allot has to do with who will take the strategic initiative , which way the conflict goes etc .

    The amount of weaponry and ammunition for a sustained campaign over a long period is also a factor .

    The United States has already factored in the possibility that NATO as a relevant operational entity will cease to exist after such a scenario especially as Greece has already extracted security guarantees from the United States independently of NATO in a US-Greece Defense agreement( that commits America to Greece's security ) making any veto of US defense asstes superfluous . The Americans have remained deliberately vague ( much as in the Taiwan -China case ) because they need Turkish co-opeartion . The other NATO countries will
    do as they are told by the United States .

    There is a large and powerful pro-Greek lobby in the US Congress too that will not tolerate any US waivering of its commitments to Greek security .

    Additionally , Turkey really has nowhere to go in terms of allies that mean anything in the post phase of such a conflict . Allot of what it does , relies on good will from the West , but it does not have a strangle hold over the West . A Western realignment with Russia , or
    Bulgaria in the post-Saddam world will show this to be a fact .

    The American support of Turkey( its geographical position only , not the Turks themselves or what they do ) is not unconditional .



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    RE: Turkish fighter jets violate Greek airspace!

    Hmmm, sorry but I see Turkey as a more interesting ally for the US. They offer a very good base for any US operation in the middle east, specially if you want to stay closer to Irak. Also Turkey is going to be the exit of caspian sea oil, making it an important player in the energy theatre. And Turkey is the only ally of Israel in the region.
    Anyway, I cant imagine a war between those two countries, no US goverment would allow that conflict and itll be a nosense war

    Regards
    Jorge

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    RE: Turkish fighter jets violate Greek airspace!

    >>>Hmmm, sorry but I see Turkey as a more interesting ally for the US.<<<

    As far as I know, the U.S is seeking to gain ground in Europe and the world, not loose it.

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    RE: Turkish fighter jets violate Greek airspace!

    [updated:LAST EDITED ON 08-06-02 AT 10:29 PM (GMT)]>Are you saying that the Greek AF did not managed to
    >intercept those ******s?Shame on them.

    My point is: Shooting them down would mean the first step to a vicious circle. I bet those Greek interceptors may have almost rammed the Turkish invaders in very aggressive manoeuvers. Many fingers may also have been shown by both sides in the process.



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    RE: Turkish fighter jets violate Greek airspace!

    >Are you saying that the Greek AF did not managed to
    >intercept those ******s?Shame on them.


    Not exactly...

    "...Regarding the question of the low pass by Turkish fighters above the civil international aerodrome of Rhodes, there is much concern in the PA and MoD regarding the real intentions of Turkey. Indeed, Turkish fighters made simulated attack in the aerodrome of Rhodes and despite the continuing warnings of Greek air defense they denied to withdraw from the Greek Air space the intervention of three Greek fighters was needed in order to force, after a close engagement ,the Turkish F-16 to escape (*sic). ..."

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    RE: Turkish fighter jets violate Greek airspace!

    So now I hope you all see what Greece lives with daily. Now I sincerly hope you all understand Greece's situation.

    Turkey is playing VERY dangerous games lately. SA-8's are deployed in the islands I know also.

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    RE: Turkish fighter jets violate Greek airspace!

    But the same post mentions Greek overflights of Turkish territory, so aren't both sides "playing the game"? (in a manner of speaking of course)

    Cheers,
    James

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    RE: Turkish fighter jets violate Greek airspace!

    A conflict between both states wouldn't last long indeed. If Greece would have started a war with Turkey, I doubt the EU would support that war. On the other hand, if Greece would have been attacked, all EU-members would reach their hands out to Greece. But this scenario sounds unrealistic as both nations can only lose with such a conflict. Especially for Turkey it is in their own advantage not to provoke any conflict, because they already have a hard time joining the EU (thanks to Greece's VETO, but in fact, all other 14-members support Greece in this matter, because Turkey would also mean a lot of extra problems: Kurds, human rights, migration, "islam").

    The Americans would stay out of this conflict, but for the US, Turkey is of very important strategic value (Incirlick base). So I think the Yanks will try to stay neutral, but if Turkey would start a war, they probably join the EU-coalition because of pressure from their European allies (especially from France, which sees itself as the policeman of Europe, but also from Italy).

    But such conflict will never occur ... but never say never ... who knows Germany might invade france tomorrow, again :9.







  22. #22
    adonis Guest

    RE: Turkish fighter jets violate Greek airspace!

    You may have seen this b4 but i'll post this again.

    http://www.kapatel.gr/matrix/science/eemet/scenario.htm

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    RE: Turkish fighter jets violate Greek airspace!

    Personally I'm tired of all this Greek vs Turkey topics, its pretty funny, many Greeks I've talked to are very Anti-Turkey (as well as some Armenians I've talked to), but many Anatolian Turks i've talked to are rather indifferent towards Greeks.

    Anyways here's an analysis on a possible Greek vs Turkey scenario.

    http://www.alphalink.com.au/~bjordan/TurkvsGreece.html

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    Tha ton xeskiso ton mpine... ;)

    [updated:LAST EDITED ON 09-06-02 AT 11:18 PM (GMT)]>>>Those aircraft would have MINCE MEAT if the Greek Army had had SA-8b Gecko's or TOR-M1's deployed in the area. At 105 metres you are in the NO ESCAPE zone of any defensive SAM.<<<



    There were ES( Hellenic Army ) and PA SAM systems in the area but had an order not to open fire...



    >>>Turkey is has close military relationships with Israel and Isreal is known to have developed effective countermeasures to those missle systems, its quite a possiblity this knowledge has been transferred to the Turks.<<<



    Flying techniques, maybe ... EW pods and jammers , not likely... Downed IDF pilots...?...at least 1...



    >>>Hmmm, sorry but I see Turkey as a more interesting ally for the US. They offer a very good base for any US operation in the middle east, specially if you want to stay closer to Irak. Also Turkey is going to be the exit of caspian sea oil, making it an important player in the energy theatre. And Turkey is the only ally of Israel in the region<<<



    If Turkey does not make sincere and concrete steps towards Democratization , Human rights , Freedom of press etc in order to join the EU , its heading for a hard clash between the Stratocratic elite and the impoverished and pro Islamic people... if more slush funds are used for weapon purchases instead of economic reforms , then General Kivrikoglou ( and his successor Ozkok) are in deep trouble...


    >>>My point is: Shooting them down would mean the first step to a vicious circle. I bet those Greek interceptors may have almost rammed the Turkish invaders in very aggressive manoeuvers. Many fingers may also have been shown by both sides in the process.<<<


    Its been going on for 28 years now... At least 2 THK fighters have been shot down with weapons and at least 5 with maneouvres... The Greek Air Force , is much more combat ready and capable that some people would have you think... ( Plane spotting anyone...? )




    >>>But the same post mentions Greek overflights of Turkish territory, so aren't both sides "playing the game"? (in a manner of speaking of course)<<<


    No it doesnt . We are speaking about thousands of cases here . All recorded , all documented with radar/comms links , gunsight pix etc... Turkey has a peculiar way of defining International Law... Greece is not irresponsible enough not to file flight plans , to jeopardise civil aviation safety and to weaken all its Legal arguments in the proccess...


    >>> conflict between both states wouldn't last long indeed. If Greece would have started a war with Turkey, I doubt the EU would support that war. On the other hand, if Greece would have been attacked, all EU-members would reach their hands out to Greece. But this scenario sounds unrealistic as both nations can only lose with such a conflict. Especially for Turkey it is in their own advantage not to provoke any conflict, because they already have a hard time joining the EU (thanks to Greece's VETO, but in fact, all other 14-members support Greece in this matter, because Turkey would also mean a lot of extra problems: Kurds, human rights, migration, "islam").
    The Americans would stay out of this conflict, but for the US, Turkey is of very important strategic value (Incirlick base). So I think the Yanks will try to stay neutral, but if Turkey would start a war, they probably join the EU-coalition because of pressure from their European allies (especially from France, which sees itself as the policeman of Europe, but also from Italy<<<


    Quite right GeForce... Of course theory doesnt always happen , so the Greek Air Force deals with them daily as a real threat and not as a 'think tank scenario'... If Turkey decides to go to war she will loose much more than she thinks possible...






    THK fighters continue to be used as a political tool from a Srtatocratic regime that has no regard for International safety regulations , let alone its own people's well being...

    Oh well , PA Squadron offices have enough gunsight pictures of THK a/c taken from their 6'clock anyway...







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  25. #25
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    RE: Turkish fighter jets violate Greek airspace!

    >>>Personally I'm tired of all this Greek vs Turkey topics, its pretty funny, many Greeks I've talked to are very Anti-Turkey (as well as some Armenians I've talked to), but many Anatolian Turks i've talked to are rather indifferent towards Greeks.<<<

    Of course the Turks have no problem with Greeks. For some reason, their leadership/military cannot leave it alone though.

    Greeks don't like Turks because it is/was OUR families that suffered at their hands. Do I expect you and your "western" mind to comprehend this? No. But at least try to understand it.



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    RE: Turkish fighter jets violate Greek airspace!


    >Greeks don't like Turks because it is/was OUR families that
    >suffered at their hands. Do I expect you and your "western"
    >mind to comprehend this? No. But at least try to
    >understand it.

    You don't even know where I'm from and you've already labled me.

  27. #27
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    RE: Turkish fighter jets violate Greek airspace!

    >>You don't even know where I'm from and you've already labled me.<<

    Sorry, but I have "labbeled" you from what you write. Ask a murder victim's family if they feel animosity towards the killer. Then ask the killer's family if they feel animosity towards the victim's family.




  28. #28
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    RE: Turkish fighter jets violate Greek airspace!

    Yes but I think there should be more efforts towards rapproachment between the two. Look at the French/British with the Germans. I'm pretty sure there's still some animosity between the two but relations are rather good now.

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    RE: Turkish fighter jets violate Greek airspace!

    [updated:LAST EDITED ON 10-06-02 AT 02:54 AM (GMT)]I am not suprise to see Icarus telling us How he hates Turks, maybe I should feel the same way, since our family have lost relatives in 1920 Greek Invation of Western Turkey but i am not...

    Roots of the problems between Turkey and Greece did not started today or 28 years ago. It was Ottomans captured Istanbul from Bizantine in 1543 started the problems, Greeks never accepted this and still they dont accept it, for example, Most of the Greeks still call the city with old name Castantinapol (the name of the city before 1543) eventhough Old name is not in the use. Another good example is when Ottoman empire collapsed in 1920, Greeks saw this as a chance to capture so call Historical Greek Land from the Turks, and they invaded Western Turkey for a while but eventually they were defiated by newly establish Turkish Army.

    Agean issues are complex. and Currently, Turkey "do not accept" Greek claims of 10 miles Sea and Air space territorial limits in Agean (even USAF does not accepts this, they were intercepted several times by Greeks). With 6 miles territorial limits currently Turkey applies, 50% of the Agean Sea and Air Space are International waters and Air space.

    If Turkey accepts Greek Claim of 10 miles, International waters and Air space will be reduced to approximatley 17 percent, this means Turkey no longer can use Sea Lines and International Air space freely, Actually nobody can use, not just Turkey...Greeks are not just claiming 10 miles, they want to increase it to 12 miles also.

    My suggestion for people in this Forum look at a Agean Map, find Turkey, Is Turkey borders Agean and Other Greek Islands? Yes, Turkey is one of the costal country in Agean and have right to use international waters and air space, but with Greek Claim of 10 miles or 12 miles territory, there would not be much left to use it freely...

    So called Air Space vialotions, should be look at in the above context, When a Turkish airplane flies 8 miles off the Greek Island, Greeks call this air space violation but in Turkish maps, That airplane is in International Waters and Air Space...

    I am not suggesting that TuAF never vialoted Greek air spaces, It could happend easly in Agean Sea but most of the violations Greek claims are just one sided and claimg that they have 10 miles limits.

    Recently, Greek A-7's and F-16's violated Turkish Air Space several times over the main land of Turkey. Just a few weeks ago, Turkish Cougar SAR helo was participating SAR exercise in INTERNATIONAL waters harrased by 4 Greek F-16. I hope My Dear Greek Friends accept this fact that You DO VIOLATE air space and harras airplanes...So, story is not always one sided...

    F.I.R responsibilities of Greece over Agean directly related to civilian air trafic over the international air space, this responsebility does not imply Greece have the ownership of the air space. Do Canadians own Atlantic since they have long costal borders and F.I.R responsibilities? No. Do Turkey owns Black Sea since we have long borders and FIR responsibility? No. we share it with others countries in the Black sea...

    I hope this information will help some of you to understand Turkey's position.

    Regards,

    Feridun Tasdan



  30. #30
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    RE: Turkish fighter jets violate Greek airspace!

    ">>>But the same post mentions Greek overflights of Turkish territory, so aren't both sides "playing the game"? (in a manner of speaking of course)<<<


    No it doesnt . We are speaking about thousands of cases here . All recorded , all documented with radar/comms links , gunsight pix etc... Turkey has a peculiar way of defining International Law... Greece is not irresponsible enough not to file flight plans , to jeopardise civil aviation safety and to weaken all its Legal arguments in the proccess..."

    The opening post in this thread reports three Greek overflights of Turkish territory in the Gyolu Bay area!

    Cheers,
    James



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