Key.Aero Network
Register Free

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 30 of 36

Thread: Dassault Super Mirage ACF - prototype picture !!!

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Jan 2000
    Location
    Germany
    Posts
    4,012

    Exclamation Dassault Super Mirage ACF - prototype picture !!!

    Hi ... I’m back from my three-week family-holiday-trip in France ... and with the help of “frankvw” I found two volumes of “Le Fana de l’Aviation” (No. 416 + 417) regarding the long way of the French ACF project to the final Mirage 4000.

    The most interesting NEW’s for me apart from some very fine drawings was a picture of the partly-completed prototype in December 1975 at the moment of the cancellation of the ACF “Super Mirage” project.
    I didn’t know that the project was so far competed when it was abandoned .... and now I want to ask !!!

    1. Why was the prototype not completed and flown as a technology demonstrator like the later Mirage 4000 ??
    2. What happened to it later ??? ... was it scraped and why ??
    3. Does anyone have some more pictures of the prototype ??
    4. Why was then – only about three years later in spring 1979 – a fighter in the same class of the F-15 developed and test-flown ... ??
    5. ... and how does France reached this achievement – to develop two fighters in this class in a three years time frame ???

    So far enough until now .... nice to be back again, and best regards,

    Deino
    ...

    He was my North, my South, my East and West,
    My working week and my Sunday rest,
    My noon, my midnight, my talk, my song;
    I thought that love would last forever; I was wrong.

    The stars are not wanted now; put out every one:
    Pack up the moon and dismantle the sun;
    Pour away the ocean and sweep up the woods:
    For nothing now can ever come to any good.
    -------------------------------------------------
    W.H.Auden (1945)

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Jan 2000
    Location
    Germany
    Posts
    4,012
    and here are the side views of the Super Mirage !!!
    ...

    He was my North, my South, my East and West,
    My working week and my Sunday rest,
    My noon, my midnight, my talk, my song;
    I thought that love would last forever; I was wrong.

    The stars are not wanted now; put out every one:
    Pack up the moon and dismantle the sun;
    Pour away the ocean and sweep up the woods:
    For nothing now can ever come to any good.
    -------------------------------------------------
    W.H.Auden (1945)

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Jan 2000
    Location
    Germany
    Posts
    4,012
    ... and some "What-if" serial versions !!!
    ...

    He was my North, my South, my East and West,
    My working week and my Sunday rest,
    My noon, my midnight, my talk, my song;
    I thought that love would last forever; I was wrong.

    The stars are not wanted now; put out every one:
    Pack up the moon and dismantle the sun;
    Pour away the ocean and sweep up the woods:
    For nothing now can ever come to any good.
    -------------------------------------------------
    W.H.Auden (1945)

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Jan 2000
    Posts
    224
    mirage 4000 was an evolution of super mirage.
    Dassault had always this way of doing, there're no really new fighter at dassault but rather slow evolutions.

    mirage 4000 was already built before the super mirage was droped.

    I don't know what happened to the prototype.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Aug 2003
    Location
    Paris, France
    Posts
    1,968
    Let's wait the Fana n°418

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Jan 2000
    Location
    Germany
    Posts
    4,012
    Quote Originally Posted by ogami musashi
    mirage 4000 was an evolution of super mirage.
    Dassault had always this way of doing, there're no really new fighter at dassault but rather slow evolutions.
    That's a very interesting point - for my opinion - no other manufactor of aircraft makes this like Dassault !

    Starting with the Mirage III and it's bigger cousin the Mirage IV tnhere waere plans for a Mirage III replacement developed and largely based on the M.III-airframe first to the F-series = F-1, F-2, F-3) with fixed wings and the G-series with VG-wings (G-2, G-4, G-8).

    The Super Mirage = ACF was then an enlarged Mirage G-8 with a fixed wing wich led after it's cancelation to the Super Mirage-Delta = Mirage 4000 and it's smaller precedessor - the Mirage 2000 !!!

    Just fine !


    Quote Originally Posted by ogami musashi
    mirage 4000 was already built before the super mirage was droped.
    Are You sure .... I think that cold not be !!! The Mirage Super Mirage = ACF-programe was canceled late in 1975 and the Mirage 4000 was built during 1978 - 1979 !!!


    Deino
    ...

    He was my North, my South, my East and West,
    My working week and my Sunday rest,
    My noon, my midnight, my talk, my song;
    I thought that love would last forever; I was wrong.

    The stars are not wanted now; put out every one:
    Pack up the moon and dismantle the sun;
    Pour away the ocean and sweep up the woods:
    For nothing now can ever come to any good.
    -------------------------------------------------
    W.H.Auden (1945)

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Jan 2000
    Posts
    224
    before the ACF was droped, dassault has started the construction of the prototype of the super mirage 4000.
    You can see that in the first part of the article.
    At this time the plane was called "mirage 4000" prior to the "Super mirage 4000" known todays.

    i'll look at the article again but i'm pretty sure i'm not wrong.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Location
    Montreal Canada
    Posts
    518
    I don't know what happened to the prototype.[/QUOTE]

    the prototype is displayed at "le bourget" musee nationale d'aviation, i have seen it, very nice.
    Camaro.

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Jan 2000
    Posts
    224
    okay i checked my book.

    I was not correct on one thing, it was not the prototype of the mirage 4000 that was built before ACF cancelation but a complete Mock-up of this plane!
    My bad.

    However this means the plane was designed before the cancelation of the ACF, wich is logical if you follow this dassault-only slow evolutions way of production.

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Jan 2000
    Location
    On your nerves
    Posts
    9,057
    Quote Originally Posted by Deino
    That's a very interesting point - for my opinion - no other manufactor of aircraft makes this like Dassault !

    Starting with the Mirage III....
    Well, if you want to start from the beginning...
    The MirageIII emerged from the MD.550 Mystère-Delta. Which was very roughly based on the Super Mystere, itself an evolved MD.452 Mystère, which originally was little more then a swept-winged MD.450 Ouragan...

    But there are several designers/manufacturers who have a clear evolution in their designs. If you look at all the development prototypes from the MiG-15 to the MiG-21, you can easily see the evolution there. The same can be said if you look at Convair's deltas: from the XF-92 to the F-102 (initially with the fat fuselage), the F-106, then the B-58...
    Then you have the F-4 Phantom which is logically developed from the F3H Demon, or Grumman's F-9F Panther which got swept wings and became the F9F Cougar, and was then to evolve as the F9F-9 which was later called F11F Tiger.

    You have to remember of course that up until the 1960s, things were happening awfully fast in the aviation industry. Better engines, better materials, new discoveries in aerodynamics and other fields. This made it an almost round-the-clock job for the designers to keep up with the latest developments, so in stead of starting from scratch each and every time, they refined existing designs to such lengths that after some time, the original design was only hard to recognise in the 'new' model.
    Regards,

    Arthur
    The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt.
    Bertrand Russell

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Jan 2000
    Location
    Auckland, New Zealand
    Posts
    1,459
    Even the F-15 can be seen as evolved from the F-4, though admittedly the end result is quite different. The initial fixed wing configuration studied was practically an F-4 clone, which evolved to the end form via a tailed delta (MiG-21 influence) with MiG-25-style intakes.
    Available now: my book Hawker P.1103 and P.1121: Camm's Last Fighter Projects from Blue Envoy Press

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Posts
    177
    Hey Deino,
    Did those books you picked up have any detailed three view pics of the ACF? That was always one of my favorite Dassault designs as well.

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Jan 2000
    Location
    Burpelson AFB
    Posts
    13,191
    Did Dassault want to power mirages with the Orenda Iroquois engine at one point?
    Sean O'Connor

    Sean's Blog, now with forum
    ACIG.org Team
    Airliners.net

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Aug 2003
    Posts
    4,190
    Great stuff once again, Deino!

    That's a very interesting point - for my opinion - no other manufactor of aircraft makes this like Dassault
    Atlas

    Well, they would have if they went ahead and built the Cava

    But obviously, they were influenced by their Mirages.
    Last edited by GoldenDragon; 7th December 2006 at 01:46.

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Jan 2000
    Location
    Germany
    Posts
    4,012

    Lightbulb

    Quote Originally Posted by Sundog
    Hey Deino,
    Did those books you picked up have any detailed three view pics of the ACF? That was always one of my favorite Dassault designs as well.
    Mine too .... and I deeply regret that there is no model kit of this plane ... regarding the plans ... Sorry not ... they do have a what-if-3-side-drawing of the proposed prototype ... but just in the quality like the other pics I posted !

    The best 3-side-drawing I have are these ... an older twin seater and the final single seater version !

    Deino
    ...

    He was my North, my South, my East and West,
    My working week and my Sunday rest,
    My noon, my midnight, my talk, my song;
    I thought that love would last forever; I was wrong.

    The stars are not wanted now; put out every one:
    Pack up the moon and dismantle the sun;
    Pour away the ocean and sweep up the woods:
    For nothing now can ever come to any good.
    -------------------------------------------------
    W.H.Auden (1945)

  16. #16
    Join Date
    Aug 2003
    Location
    Paris, France
    Posts
    1,968
    Strange nose, wonderful wings

  17. #17
    Join Date
    Jan 2000
    Location
    pi::
    Posts
    1,257
    Super Mirage 4000, photo thanks to Avions Marcel Dassault-Breguet Aviation.
    Attached Images Attached Images  
    pb::

  18. #18
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Posts
    177
    Thanks!
    That first three view looks like an interim design while it evolved from the G-8 to the ACF.

  19. #19
    Join Date
    Jan 2000
    Location
    Germany
    Posts
    4,012
    Quote Originally Posted by glitter
    Let's wait the Fana n°418
    Has anyone seen it yet ... and wold be so kind to post ?????

    Here in Germany it's quite difficult to find it

    Thanks, Deino
    ...

    He was my North, my South, my East and West,
    My working week and my Sunday rest,
    My noon, my midnight, my talk, my song;
    I thought that love would last forever; I was wrong.

    The stars are not wanted now; put out every one:
    Pack up the moon and dismantle the sun;
    Pour away the ocean and sweep up the woods:
    For nothing now can ever come to any good.
    -------------------------------------------------
    W.H.Auden (1945)

  20. #20
    Join Date
    Jan 2000
    Posts
    224
    i'll look at it this week.

  21. #21
    Join Date
    Aug 2003
    Location
    Paris, France
    Posts
    1,968
    Got it.

    Lots of new pictures about the mirage 4000 but not much infos about its performance.

  22. #22
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Posts
    4

    wow

    man this would have been one cracker of a fighter, where did you get the model from?


    Quote Originally Posted by GoldenDragon
    Great stuff once again, Deino!



    Atlas

    Well, they would have if they went ahead and built the Cava

    But obviously, they were influenced by their Mirages.

  23. #23
    Join Date
    Aug 2003
    Posts
    2,137
    The Mirage-4000 could've been a Rafale some 20 years earlier.

  24. #24
    Join Date
    Aug 2003
    Location
    Paris, France
    Posts
    1,968
    It was really closer to a F-15

  25. #25
    Join Date
    Jan 2000
    Location
    Germany
    Posts
    4,012
    Thanks to "Lothringer" from the German "FLUGZEUGFORUM" I got the final issue no. 418 !!!

    Here are the comparetive drawings of the Mirage 4000 !!

    Deino
    ...

    He was my North, my South, my East and West,
    My working week and my Sunday rest,
    My noon, my midnight, my talk, my song;
    I thought that love would last forever; I was wrong.

    The stars are not wanted now; put out every one:
    Pack up the moon and dismantle the sun;
    Pour away the ocean and sweep up the woods:
    For nothing now can ever come to any good.
    -------------------------------------------------
    W.H.Auden (1945)

  26. #26
    Join Date
    Jan 2000
    Location
    pi::
    Posts
    1,102
    :diablo:


    Dassault Super Mirage ACF:

    It have this almost J-8tish-look to it
    or let's say the J-8 seems to have this almost Miragy-look to it,
    whichever you would prefer to have it.

    Anyone wirh me on this assessment???

    :diablo:

  27. #27
    Join Date
    Aug 2003
    Location
    Paris, France
    Posts
    1,968
    Able to fly at Mach 2 for 18 minutes.
    What a pity we couldn't afford it.

  28. #28
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Posts
    318
    Hello Deino! I just found this thread (I was searching photos of the 4000).

    You say "... and how does France reached this achievement – to develop two fighters in this class in a three years time frame ???"

    More : They were three!

    there was a third twin-engined Mirage before the ACF : the Mirage G8 had swing-wings!
    What is impressive with Dassault is that in the 70's , he manage to make three powerful, twin-engined prototypes, with three different kind of wings !!
    (Swing-wings , swept-wings, delta-wings)

    Between 1970 and 1978 Dassault made four twin-engined mirage prototypes.

    First were the G8. They were "swing-wing" aircrafts.
    The first was two-seater and flew on 8 may 1971. It was the Mirage G8-01, on display at Le Bourget museum.
    The second aircraft was the G8-02 a single seater. It flew on 13th July 1972 One year later, it reach Mach 2.34, and this is still the European speed record for an aircraft!
    It was partially scrapped; only the cockpit, undercarriage and wing subsists.

    The ACF was a G8-02 derivative. Two big differencies : M53 engines (instead of
    Atar-9K50 for the G8) and a swept-wing instead of variable geometry.
    In december 1975 it was almost finished (80%) but the program was scrapped and the prototype, too
    Mirage 2000 was choosen by the french president Giscard D'estaing on december 18th 1975. The 4000 was proposed by Dassault the same day, but rejected because it was too expensive... Nevertheless it flew as a private venture between 1979 and 1988 as you red in "le Fana"
    The 4000 prototype is at "le bourget" museum since 1992 (but not visible)
    The armée de l'air still wanted is twin-jet fighter, and that's why the Rafale was launched in 1988...

  29. #29
    Join Date
    Jan 2000
    Location
    Germany
    Posts
    4,012
    Quote Originally Posted by Archibaald
    Hello Deino! I just found this thread (I was searching photos of the 4000).

    .....

    The ACF was a G8-02 derivative. Two big differencies : M53 engines (instead of Atar-9K50 for the G8) and a swept-wing instead of variable geometry.
    In december 1975 it was almost finished (80%) but the program was scrapped and the prototype, too
    ...

    Thanks for these additional information .... but I only can add:


    WHY !!!!!?????

    Cheers, Deino
    ...

    He was my North, my South, my East and West,
    My working week and my Sunday rest,
    My noon, my midnight, my talk, my song;
    I thought that love would last forever; I was wrong.

    The stars are not wanted now; put out every one:
    Pack up the moon and dismantle the sun;
    Pour away the ocean and sweep up the woods:
    For nothing now can ever come to any good.
    -------------------------------------------------
    W.H.Auden (1945)

  30. #30
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Posts
    81
    Quote Originally Posted by Deino
    Has anyone seen it yet ... and wold be so kind to post ?????

    Here in Germany it's quite difficult to find it

    Thanks, Deino
    N°416 at Home, I will scan some pics tomorrow.

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

- Part of the    Network -

KEY AERO AVIATION NEWS

MAGAZINES

AVIATION FORUM

SHOP

 

WEBSITES