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Thread: Israel - Iran Scenario (Israeli Attack on Iranian Nuke Assets) Discussion

  1. #61
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    Israel can pulled it off if it wants. Iran military is based on Russian weopons and some old American stuff. And Iran didnot defeat Iraq while Israel has defeated Arabs so many times even with full Soviet support and much bigger size.

  2. #62
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    Israel did it all alone? Wake up... Anyone with full hardware backup and information support can do that. Even Sri Lanka can win a war against the rest of Asia... How else do you think Taiwan is still standing against China? And it is not cause the arabs are that bad. For your information... Arabs and jews are the same. It is the training and support to make it better. The soviets didn't send the top planes or trainers to the arabs. Besides one can fly a top plane but with every info forwarded to the enemy that plane is worth less then assumed...

  3. #63
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    Do the objective analysis .Mig 21 was a top plane at that point of time. Mig-23 was not in active service. There were thousands of soviet advisors in Egypt and Syria in previous wars. Mig-25 provide the information. And i don't think current Iranian fighters can defeat Python4 and AIM-120 equipped F-15 and F-16 and i have read from UAE F-16 article that EW suite is even effective against S-400. S-300 or whatever is thrown at these fighters backed by Phalcon radars cannot do much.

  4. #64
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    "i have read from UAE F-16 article that EW suite is even effective against S-400. S-300 or whatever is thrown at these fighters backed by Phalcon radars cannot do much."

    I wouldn't put too much faith in that statement, seeing as how the S-400 isn't even in service yet. And if the Iranians have the PMU-1 or PMU-2 variant of the S-300, it doesn't present a very healthy MEZ to fly through either. The advantage the Israelis would be able to exploit is the lmited numbers of these systems currently in Iran. Of course, the problem is that the Iranians would be rather pi$$ed at the whole thing and may very well try and pelt Israel with a Shahab-3 IRBM in response. Would Israel potentially put its citizens at risk to take out a facilitythat hasn't even been proven to be producing WMD?
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  5. #65
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    "The aircraft's radar counter-countermeasures system is the first operational system with an ``adaptive cross-polarization capability against coherent monopulse Doppler radars,'' the Lockheed Martin official said. Less technically, that means the Block 60 will have a defensive system especially designed to foil the most advanced double-digit surface-to-air-missiles. Double-digit SAM systems include the 80-120-mi.-range, Russian-made SA-10s and SA-12s and the emerging S-400 family of missiles with an advertised range of up to 240 mi. The radar's electronic counter-countermeasures use spread-spectrum techniques to see through jamming. In all, the EW system offers 11 new or updated technologies for foiling radars and radar-guided missiles. However, the transfer of these techniques did not require the release of U.S. control over source codes for the EW or radar computers."

    Isreal must have pretty good intellegence before conducting such an action. Iraq WMD was separate issue created to remove a certain regime.

  6. #66
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    The F-4 is as good as withdrawn from Israeli service, if not completely by now. You are right about it still being in use in considerable numbers in Iran, but you are most delusional in your 'backbone of the IDF/AF'-statement. The Pahtom might have been that 25 years ago, it definately has lost that title a long time ago.
    Backbone? no, not at all. That would be the F-16.
    The F-4s are flying today. The latest date I heard of retirement is in less than a year, but that was told by a man I don't know over the internet. He said that it will be in 24.08.04 (and he said that two months ago, it just happen to be the 24th today also). It sounds logical, but who knows. Or how do they say, "ever since the temple was destroyed, prophesy was given to the fools". It all depends on how soon we'll have a squadron of F-16Is..

  7. #67
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    Some seem not to understand, the S-300 systems are not the biggest threats, but the Tomcats...

    Also it is not known which version of the S-300 Iran has, serious sources tell that it is a system specially made for Iranian requirements, likely to be something based on the PMU. This system is likely to be much different in its ECCM systems, as Iran works on this techniques very much, Iranian HAWK and S-200 system should have by now complete different ECCM systems as Iran has much experience with different weapon/counter system during the IPGW. Most Russian Jammers (they also had French Jammers) carried by Iraqis were cleared as capable to Jamm every HAWK systems, some times they proved successful but Iranians leaned and developed new ECCM's.

    The air defence wing of the IRIAF also have developed very useful anti-SEAD/DEAD tactics weapons like the ARMAT, Kh-58 and also Kh-31P were used against Iranian HAWK sites, only with new developed tactics most Iranian HAWK sites could survive such attacks, if Iran had not these techniques, Iranian I-HAWK sites were multiply times destroyed...

    Now to the Tomcats, how comes that most ignore it ? What Israeli AIM-120 equipped F-15I's could do against more than a dozen F-14's equipped with improved Phoenix’s in their way ? Wile Iranian Tomcats, high on fuel could remain out of the envelope of the F-15/AMRAAM, they would get great problems with the long range weapons of the Tomcats and please I don’t want to talk about the "only 10 poorly maintained F-14 are in service" or "F-14/AIM-54 only useful against old Russian bombers" story’s.

  8. #68
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    The Phoenix has a long history of sometimes not hiting targets from a great distance.
    Also, how did they manage to maintain them after all these years?
    Last edited by Erez; 24th December 2003 at 10:10.

  9. #69
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    Originally posted by GarryB
    "
    It is quite amusing that it is OK for Israel to have nuclear weapons and Iran is not. Previous military action in the area seems to suggest the arabs have more to fear from the jews than the jews have from the arabs.
    What previous military action in the area suggest that?
    Is it the use of WMD on the Kurds by Iraq?
    or is it the exchange of of chemical weapons in the Iran-Iraq
    war?, or may be it's the use of WMD in the Lybia-Chad mini
    war? or perhaps the Egyptian use if chemical against Yemen
    in that conflict?
    Is there military parades in Israel with sign calling to earase
    Iran of the Map? or is it the other way around.

    Since the starter of this thread wanted to remain technical
    i will add thispossible route. A flight acroos the red sea
    (possibly cutthing through Yemen and Oman and over the
    persian gulf and a refuling of the arebian sea (possibly
    assisstance from India). Also Israeli subs can launch their
    missiles at unfinished bomb runs or at possible scud launching
    sites before or after iranian retaliation.
    Of course as we know control over the nuclear and balistic misslies is not in the hnds of the Iraian army but in the hands of
    the fundamentalist revolutionary gourds. Hitting their HQ via
    air or sea will further distrupte the response.

  10. #70
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    Originally posted by SOC
    "Sanctions from the U.S. would be severe. Not a little smack like the Iraq strike."

    I dunno about US backlash, we do seem to let Israel get away with whatever it wants, and never stand up to them in the UN with the rest of the world Sure, we'd probably stand up and say "bad", but I'd be willing to bet that we don't stop F-16s heading over the ocean from Lockheed...

    "Well, what does this tell us? Probably that there's more valuable targets elsewhere..."

    Or that they're learning the system before they commit it to an active part of the defense of their country.
    I'm curious to know what all the US military might would ahave
    been reduced to if Israel would'nt attack to Osirak reactor in
    1981.
    "A nation that forgets its past is doomed to repeat it. "
    -Winston Churchill
    Last edited by alberte; 24th December 2003 at 15:14.

  11. #71
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    guys please ignore H117, he's just says stupid things without thinking.

  12. #72
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    Somes ones been reading this board! haha..

    Iran threatens to riposte with missiles in event of Israeli strike


    24/12/2003

    Iranian Defence Minister Ali Shamkhani warned Wednesday that the Islamic regime would use all means at its disposal including medium-range Shahab-3 missiles if Israel struck its nuclear facilities.

    "We will use all strike weapons at our disposal and the Shahab-3 missile is one of those," Shamkhani told reporters after a cabinet meeting when asked if Iran would retaliate with missiles if Israel made good its threats to take out Iranian nuclear sites.

    Earlier this year, the air force of the hardline Islamic Revolutionary Guards Corps took delivery of several domestically built Shahab-3 missiles, with a range of between 1,300 and 1,500 kilometres (between 800 and 1,000 miles), sufficient to reach Israel.

    The Tel Aviv daily Haaretz Sunday quoted Israeli Defence Minister Shaul Mofaz as warning that the Jewish state was considering striking the nuclear facilities of Iran, now regarded as its archfoe, despite an agreement earlier this month to submit them to snap UN inspection.

    If such attacks are launched, "the necessary steps will be taken so that Iranian citizens will not be harmed," the daily quoted Mofaz as saying.
    Wrinkles wrinkles my kingdom fallen to a wrinkle

  13. #73
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    It is not strange that 50% of the US are seing Israel as the threat in the ME. The US propaganda machine is fully busy with changing that but I doubt that it can explain why Israel can throw away Palestinians, kill them regulary, make concentration camps, destroy houses, steal their land, use US arms to kill so called terrorist, have chemical, biological and nuclear weapons and the arabs are still the bad guy.

    Even top army officers had enough. F16 aces, special forces are signing that they had enough... And do not forget that the so called democraticly elected Sharon murdered two villages... He is more acceptable then Arafat? Just look how much the fundamentalistic jews are spreading hatred. How would one react if the arabs did that to Israel...?

    Just try to understand that if one is blowing himself up... The reason is probably that that person is so much humiliated that he is not fared to end his life. If you look at the pictures how fundametalistic jews use water and the Palestinians have to beg for it then it is no wonder... The use of islam has nothing to do with it. It is the situation they are forced in. Blowing up is bad... But what can one expect from decades of concetration camps. If the Israeli government can use the Hitler regime for gettnig attention then why is everybody sponsering their occupation and eradication of the Palestinians?

    Is Iran threatening Israel? I doubt that... It is just the fear that it might get something that could reach Israel... As if they are able to do something with medium tech missiles...

  14. #74
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    PLA I agree with you 100%, its just the US that sees it that way, I cant blame Palestinians anymore, they've been overran more times than we can count by Israel.

  15. #75
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    @alberte

    a refuling of the arebian sea (possibly
    assisstance from India
    Iran and India have since some time relative good military cooperation that’s why India would not take part in this operation, if they do Iran would maybe support Pakestan and they really don’t want that.

    As next flying in the Persian Gulf and Arabian sea is dangerous, most Iranian large surveillance radars and S-200 sites are places there and their radar performance is likely strong enough to detect even low flying aircraft closing to the borders, a attack in mountainous border areas from Turkey or Iraq would be much better as the radar net there is not really useful against low flying aircrafts. Another problem should be that most "surveillance systems" are placed at the western borders and F-14's fly regularly CAP's there and it should be known, what kind of radar the Tomcat has.



    Also Israeli subs can launch their missiles at unfinished bomb runs
    That should be a way, it should be not very easy to dive undetected thought the strait of Hormoz and shooting missiles from the Gulf of Oman is also not a very good idea, as the way to Iranian installations would be relative long, so the missiles would need a long range and could get intercepted as there would be enough time to send Tomcats for interception and Iranian Tomcats have intercepted Exocets in combat for example.

    If story’s about the "Turbo Popeye" are right it should have a range of over 1500km in a lo-lo profile, but at such a range, it is highly doubtful that it would be a super-sonic CM. Sure if used in enough numbers several should hit their targets but it is at least doubtful if their warhead could penetrate the underground installations of Nataz and Israelis know that the threat comes from Nataz and not from a civil light water reactor like Busher...

    at possible scud launching sites before or after iranian retaliation
    Impossible, Iranian Shahab-3 TEL's can move from anywhere to a "launch pad" without anyone knowing that this is a launch pad and they are there... So as it looks Iran could even shoot Shahab-3's from the Tehran Area well in Iran and nobody could track the movements in such a huge country like Iran scud hunts are impossible without total air superiority and even with it would need such a battlefield intelligence which likely even America would not have in near future. So that can be forgotten, the only defence would be the Arrow and there must be said that there is a huge difference in intercepting and missile like the SCUD and intercepting a missile like the Shahab which work more like a ICBM... If Israel strike there will be a huge counter strike and as the Iranian defence minister says the Shahab-3 would be one of the weapons used, there are also other weapons...

    Hitting their HQ via
    air or sea will further distrupte the response.
    That would like the launch pad story don’t work, the only way would be to strike each HQ of the several missile units and that should be hard as the HQ's of those are prepared to hold communication lines and work even if the enemy has knock'ed out the whole Iranian Air Defence.

    In generally Israel could by no means stop the launch of Shahab-3's the only way is to disable the missile when it already on the way to its target, that’s why Americans are placing PAC-3 batteries around western regions of Iran, working on the THAAD/SM-3 and the ABL.

  16. #76
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    Originally posted by Sami
    Nice scenario, but I think you guys got the target co ordinates wrong . With all the recent news about the nuclear proliferation, I think another country will find itself ahead in the list. Ofcourse nothing is going to happen without first getting the nod from the US.
    Another country? what bulgaria?

    @phrozenflame

    Sorry mate dont take this the wrong way but unless your working in the ISI or your helped modify the SHAHAB-3 (remember Iran said it wont make a 4th it will improve the systems on the 3rd) how can you even compare them with the North Korean missiles that you have?

    Popeeye would be the best choice. and I think that it would not be hard to modify a F-4 to fire POPEYE-II as to the whole thing about it being nuclear or not no one can say for sure even the Israelis "officially" have noted that the missile is conventional.

    SRBIN.. that nod would not come.
    Wrinkles wrinkles my kingdom fallen to a wrinkle

  17. #77
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    PLA, you're talking like there's only one side to this conflict.
    There's no point of even replying to your message (concentration camps!? wtf!?).

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    Thumbs down

    PLA happily forgets how nicely his own government treats minorities that seek their own nations.

  19. #79
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    I agree that jews are equal and have ewusl rights as all other humans. I agree that terrorizing Israel is bad. It is there and should stay there forever.

    But zionism is close to racism. And the terror is a reaction to the humiliaton the Palestinians suffer. Do you still think that arabs or Palestinians do it for fun? They should be giving peace and land. Then they have no reason to use violence. The time is over that people believe that Israeli are good and arabs are bad. You can follow news from both perspevtives. And the arab perspective is not that jews are bad or ISrael has no right to exist. It is all about making peace. That is the last thing Sharon is going to do. Barak and Sharon made it much worser. The only person I believed in was Rabin. One that fought the arabs and believed in peace. The Israeli leaders now are just listening to fundamentalistic parties. The are forcing Arafat to resign or even get killed... Only cause he is not accepting only dog food they offer him. The Israeli peace plan is more like getting good land and giving dead land... Which fool would accept that... Not even Arafat.

  20. #80
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    Originally posted by matt
    Another country? what bulgaria?

    I was talking about something little more to the east of Iran. With all the recent news about nuclear technology proliferating from Pakistan to Iran, NK and now Libya, how long before we decide to nip it at the bud. With maybe Israel doing the dirty work.

  21. #81
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    its not going to happen.. AQ khan is being made a scape goat already... they cant link it to the government so those are just pipe dreams..

    whats that sentence.. plausible deniability.
    Wrinkles wrinkles my kingdom fallen to a wrinkle

  22. #82
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    Originally posted by Vaiar
    PLA happily forgets how nicely his own government treats minorities that seek their own nations.
    I am not bounded to any government. And there is no land that treats minorities like it should. The fact that we all like democracy is fine. It is better then dictatorship. But in reality it is forcing the will of majority over the minority... And even if most people vote for peace and not war how come that leaders like Aznavar or Berlusconi love to go to war? Isn't the will of the voters less important then the economy or power lust? The Berlusconi of Italy is changing laws to get majority stakes for his companies. And how come that democracy is equal to getting false votes in some states like W Bush did? And the oldest democracy on earth India could not stop Muslim getting slaughtered in Gujarat or Hindus getting burned in trains up in the north?

    There is no good example. Do you remember that Indians in the USA and aboriginals ni Australie were treated correct? I don't. They are killed, there habitat is stolen and destroyed and they had to adapt... Excuse me they were forced to adapt... Long live democracy... Vaijar you are probing whether I like Pakistani government? It is not better then the Indian. One side you have nationalistic hindu party and the other hand a general... Both are examples of bad democracy. They should stop making ordinary oeple victims of their hatred or lust for power. I hope they will come closer.

    Peace.

  23. #83
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    And the arab perspective is not that jews are bad or ISrael has no right to exist. It is all about making peace.
    Are you living in dreams!!!!!!!!!!????!!!! Do you know any muslims???? They HATE Jews and Israel!!! The first wars with Israel weren't about Palestine, Jordan and Syria killed many themselves in those years, but about the destruction of Israel!! Israel fear is entirely justified (BUT not the way it treats the Palestinians), King Abdallah of Jordan is a nice guy and committed to peace with Israel and close ties to the west just like his father in his later years. But many Jordanians are Palestines and don't like their neighbour. Who know how long this man will last? And then take Egypt, which is a real threat. There's peace now, but its leader is 75 years old and suffers from health problems, what will the future bring? Most Egyptians hate Israel and Egypt is quite strong, its future leader might take a chance. Most Arab (muslim) countries don't even recognize Israel, not because of the Palestinian situation (they don't even care so much about their own population sometimes) but because the fact that Israel exists on land they consider Holy, the land that holds the third most sacred place in muslim land, the al Aqsa mosq. Furthermore Israel has many other places that muslims consider very holy, they don't want those in Jewish hands.
    Another thing is that Israel defeated these countries several times completely on the battlefield and is a succes story contrary to their own pasts. They feel humiliated and want revenge, they want the blood of Israel. If you don't any muslims personally I recommend you to visit the pakdef forums and don't think these guys are extremists (which seems so, I agree)!!
    I do agree with you that Israel could be more forthcoming to the Palestinians and should abandon many settlements. Though what will a future Palestinian state be? Another dictatorship in the Middle East under the head of Arafat? Arab's record of democracy and responsible government is not that bright and the Palestinians fight a lot among themselves in the past and and in the present.


    (Of course to be fair, I have to had that not all muslims hate Israel, there are very bright muslims who seek peace, but the majority (especially the majority in the middle east) is on the opposite site)

  24. #84
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    Originally posted by Srbin
    guys please ignore H117, he's just says stupid things without thinking.
    Wake up. i was putting the reality. This is not a political forum about who is right and who s wrong.

  25. #85
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    And there is no land that treats minorities like it should
    Oh yes, there are!!! I am from the Netherlands myself and although some minorities (like some black people or homosexuals) feel discriminated at times, one of our biggest minorities, the Frysians, is treated perfectly fine (probably because you can't see much difference between them and ethnic dutch )

    I agree that Berlusconi is doing things wrongly. Though I disagree with you that leaders in democratic countries should always listen to their people. Sometimes the majority is supporting the wrong choice or is in the hands of some popular and charismatic politician who only pursues his own interests. Whether a leader did the right thing by ignoring the majority is only a matter time can tell us.

    (BTW, PLA = People's Liberation Army, I thought you were from the PRC/China)

  26. #86
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    Originally posted by Vaiar
    Oh yes, there are!!! I am from the Netherlands myself and although some minorities (like some black people or homosexuals) feel discriminated at times, one of our biggest minorities, the Frysians, is treated perfectly fine (probably because you can't see much difference between them and ethnic dutch )

    I agree that Berlusconi is doing things wrongly. Though I disagree with you that leaders in democratic countries should always listen to their people. Sometimes the majority is supporting the wrong choice or is in the hands of some popular and charismatic politician who only pursues his own interests. Whether a leader did the right thing by ignoring the majority is only a matter time can tell us.

    (BTW, PLA = People's Liberation Army, I thought you were from the PRC/China)
    Ordinary people does not have usually the information which the Leaders have. So their understanding of situation is different.

  27. #87
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    Originally posted by PLA


    There is no good example. Do you remember that Indians in the USA and aboriginals ni Australie were treated correct? I don't. They are killed, there habitat is stolen and destroyed and they had to adapt... Excuse me they were forced to adapt... Long live democracy...
    The difference between the USA, Australia and China is that the minorities in China still form a very significant part of the population in the regions, and especially in Tibet and Xinjiang, they are the majority and have only been fully conquered recently. The natives of Australia and USA are now very small in numbers (unfortunately) and rather assimilated.

  28. #88
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    So that is why they use war cause we are to dumb to understand...? Or is it just oil, wealth or power? Did you see wmd? Oeps. very difficult question and we do not hav einfo on that. Let us believe MI5 that copy pastes internet...

  29. #89
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    Originally posted by Sami
    I was talking about something little more to the east of Iran. With all the recent news about nuclear technology proliferating from Pakistan to Iran, NK and now Libya, how long before we decide to nip it at the bud. With maybe Israel doing the dirty work.
    This technology was apparently transferred in th eighties and still they didnot built some thing of a substance, think about it.

  30. #90
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    If Pakistan delivered it then why not everything? Let us also not forget that mr USA nuke of the manhattan project was fried on the electric chair for givinf the nukes to Russia... That electric chair was also for his wife... So talking about bad examples... And who has used the nukes sofar? Only one nation. And which nation has the most destroying capablities in the world... Same. So let us not make little things huge...

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