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View Poll Results: Should PPL/NPPL holders be able to obtain an instructor rating to teach students

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  • Yes

    7 43.75%
  • No

    3 18.75%
  • Perhaps

    0 0%
  • Fully support the whole idea

    6 37.50%
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Thread: Should PPL/NPPL holders instruct for PPL/NPPL students

  1. #1
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    Thumbs up Should PPL/NPPL holders instruct for PPL/NPPL students

    I am interested in gathering reaction to the idea that PPL/NPPL holders should be allowed to obtain instructor ratings to enable them to teach students for the PPL/NPPL. At the present time the JAR-FCL instructor route is both inappropriate and phenominally expensive thus deterring PPL holders from acquiring a rating. Should there be a change and should such instructors be able to be paid within a club or group environment, as they were before the BCPL came into being in 1988? What do you think, and if you can persuade others to give their opinions please do so.

  2. #2
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    Yes, but with the proviso that it be overseen periodically by a QFI.
    The mind once expanded by a new idea never returns to its original size.

  3. #3
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    Smile

    Mike - thanks for your support. I see the existing FIE and FI structure remaining the same and the same level and frequency of tests as now BUT with a revised FIC both flying and ground to meet the NPPL and indeed the PPL syllabus rather than the overkill at present. Keep replies coming folks. Its your opinion I value - pro or con.

  4. #4
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    I voted 'yes' as I feel that a cadre of instructors who are doing it because they want to has to be better than a group largely composed of hours builders with their eyes firmly fixed on something a lot grander.

    Moggy
    "What you must remember" Flip said "is that nine-tenths of Cattermole's charm lies beneath the surface." Many agreed.

  5. #5
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    Yes, I agree too. I think it is much healthier to keep instruction centered on people doing it for the enjoyment of sharing flight rather than hours building for the airlines.

  6. #6
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    I fully support the idea. I found that generally someone who was instructing because they wanted to did a better job and was more in tune with the student than the hour builder instructor.

  7. #7
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    Thumbs up

    Well the response so far is great. Far better to have a cadre of well motivated PPL/NPPL instructors, some part and some full time, rather than hour builders. There is obviously a place for the dedicated professional instructor who should be adequately rewarded but no place for the dessicated variety....!! Looking at another thread, this time with Pprune, I note that some guys are earning only 70% of what I was as a CFI back in 1984........!!!! How they manage I just do not know and I am now a pensioner.

  8. #8
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    I think we are all pretty much in agreement over this. And the point that a core of guys/gals who instruct because they want to share the joys of aviation with the student pilots has got to be far better than the ones building hours towards becoming airborne bus drivers is very valid.
    The mind once expanded by a new idea never returns to its original size.

  9. #9
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    yes

    I know exactly how yoyu feal, im a NPPL student and talk of a NPPL instructor rating has been brushed passed the CAA but I ask will it come, I think yes and soon, i.: few years.

    Remember if you want to teach you can convert to microlight and gain the Instructors rating, its very easy to do, and yes many microlights are just like a cessna 150, so you can enjoy it and call yourself a pilot.

    I must make sence even when im not sober.

    Regards

    R.weaver

    Safe legal flying
    Why Fly CAA when you can fly FAA for half the price, and be supported as a general aviation pilot!

  10. #10
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    Smile

    Hope we can get plenty more input on this either way. Up to now most are in favour and I thank you.
    In the mean time at 2100 on Christmas Eve may I wish you and yours all the very best for Christmas and happy and safe flying in 2004.
    Trapper 69

  11. #11
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    Angry

    Come on train(ers)..........!! It is now 2004 and sweet FA for a week from the instructing and examining fraternity. Surely you all have something to contribute, even if it is AGREEMENT with the arguments..............!!!!!!!!!
    Trapper 69

  12. #12
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    I get the impression the training type people don't want to get involved in this matter until there has been a firm decision made one way or the other.
    The mind once expanded by a new idea never returns to its original size.

  13. #13
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    Mike - You may well be right - see the Pprune Instructor and Examiner forum for replies from those in that area. the reason for posing the question here is to get the grassroots PPL reaction - after all it is them that will benefit by either being able to be an instructor at far lower cost and complexity than at present or those future NPPL(SEP) aspirants who could afford it IF the costs were much lower. THEY COULD BE and yes I do know it is rude to shout but, when I am passionate abour my chosen profession and pastime, I can be bloody rude.
    Trapper 69

  14. #14
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    If it's a grass roots PPL reaction you're after you'd better remove my vewpoint from the list.

  15. #15
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    Smile

    Wysiwig - my, my we are a bit prickly - we were ALL grass roots at one time, even you...........!!!!!! I do want opinions from all sides. The Pprune FI and FIE forum is fine for those qualified but surely the customer is equally as important as the instructor. Chicken and egg - we do need a lot more and younger eggs to hatch out not a lot of old broody hens moaning about their lot when they knew but failed to appreciate just how little FI are paid on average and how much they had to borrow to get there.
    Trapper 69

  16. #16
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    Originally posted by wysiwyg
    If it's a grass roots PPL reaction you're after you'd better remove my vewpoint from the list.
    I think you'd do well to take heed of a sticker on the back of a driving school car a few years ago:
    Be patient you were a learner once.

    That remark applies equally well to pilots as to drivers. Actually thinking about the way some of the people out there drive I just hope they never decide to learn to fly. Impatient, ignorant of the law ( fog lights on in rain or on clear nights) and downright dangerous. The disturbing thing is that professional drivers seem to be the worst offenders.
    The mind once expanded by a new idea never returns to its original size.

  17. #17
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    Originally posted by Skybolt
    Wysiwig - my, my we are a bit prickly - we were ALL grass roots at one time, even you...........!!!!!!
    No not prickly, just taking your words as they came across. You gave me the impression that you wanted the viewpoints of people who were about to or currently in the system at that particular point. I never deny being at grass roots level, in fact I try to help people out at that level all the time. I just thought you were after a particular set of statistics and that if my current viewpoint was taken into consideration it would not give you a true reflection of those you were after.

  18. #18
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    Wysiwyg, I get the impression there was a slight misunderstanding there. Your latest post puts a different light on your opinion.
    The mind once expanded by a new idea never returns to its original size.

  19. #19
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    No worries Mike. I guess I should have qualified my statement. I didn't mean to appear cocky but at first I thought you were after all opinions, then I misunderstood your later post which I took to mean that you were after more of an entry level viewpoint.

    Regards
    wys

  20. #20
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    Actually it was Skybolt that started the thread, I was just sticking my oar in where it wasn't wanted. I think this thread can stand having the viewpoints of both qualified pilots and potential students. At least that would give a good cross section of those interested in the matter.
    The mind once expanded by a new idea never returns to its original size.

  21. #21
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    I must be going mad...I'm even attaching the wrong posts to the wrong people!

  22. #22
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    Originally posted by Moggy C
    I voted 'yes' as I feel that a cadre of instructors who are doing it because they want to has to be better than a group largely composed of hours builders with their eyes firmly fixed on something a lot grander.

    Moggy
    Here here! I personally couldn't think of anything more fulfilling than to teach someone to do what they want to do, so that they can share the experience, be it flying or otherwise. I wanted to learn to instruct Air Cadets to fly gliders at a VGS, but other commitments got in the way. All VGS instructors are volunteers and do it because they want to, plus they are trained to instruct to RAF standards. Given my complete inexperience with powered flying training to date, I think that ethos would be something to be welcomed, if it ever became a reality. Having seen countless cadets achieve their dream of flying solo for the first time as aresult of the efforts of volunteer instructors, the more people there are to do it, within the bounds of safety and competence, the better.
    I like being grey - it means I can worry without it showing!

  23. #23
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    Thumbs up

    Auster Fan - You have certainly got the right idea. 2004 is my golden jubilee as a pilot. In April 1954 at 102 (later 611) VGS Swanton Morley I was let into the luft on my tod for the first time in an ATC Cadet 3 or T31 glider. It was a great moment and aviation has given me many of them over the last 50 years. I too was a civilian instructor with the VGS after my staff cadet days were over. Happy days and fantastic memories.
    Trapper 69

  24. #24
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    Originally posted by Skybolt
    Auster Fan - You have certainly got the right idea. 2004 is my golden jubilee as a pilot. In April 1954 at 102 (later 611) VGS Swanton Morley I was let into the luft on my tod for the first time in an ATC Cadet 3 or T31 glider. It was a great moment and aviation has given me many of them over the last 50 years. I too was a civilian instructor with the VGS after my staff cadet days were over. Happy days and fantastic memories.
    Trapper 69
    Skybolt - you might be interested to know that 611 is still alive and kicking and now based at the old RAF base at Watton (now Stanta Airfield), flying Grob 103 Vikings. They celebrate their 50th anniversary later this year.
    I like being grey - it means I can worry without it showing!

  25. #25
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    ppl training

    As a 200hr PPL I feel that I would make a better instructor than a 200hr, hour builder with a cpl. Lets face it the cpl is training as a means to an end. He has no real intrest in training and is probably very frustrated. no doubt dreaming of that airline job.

    On the other side I am 50, have trained in computers for years and feel I have the right qualities and patience to give good training to ppl level.

    The aspiring pilot would probably find the training easier and more relaxed from sombody who enjoys training people.

    While I would love to be an instructor the process ofa JAR CPL is totally off putting!

    I would however undertake instructor training if I did not require a PPL.

    Reefdiver.

  26. #26
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    To: Auster Fan and Reef Diver
    It seems you guys have entered in to the spirit of this and I agree with both of you, I'd be a fool not to as what you say makes sense to me.
    The mind once expanded by a new idea never returns to its original size.

  27. #27
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    Originally posted by mike currill
    To: Auster Fan and Reef Diver
    It seems you guys have entered in to the spirit of this and I agree with both of you, I'd be a fool not to as what you say makes sense to me.
    One other point. Maybe I'm being a bit naive here, but if the instructors were volunteers and not number cruching hours builders (nothing personal guys!), would it not help to drive down costs as there would be no instructor fees to pay for? I believe some flying groups do this to keep costs down, trading this off against members helping out as duty pilot, making the tea, cleaning the hangars, grass cutting etc etc. Tell me if I am wrong!!
    I like being grey - it means I can worry without it showing!

  28. #28
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    Hmm,

    Nothing against volunteers, but I'm not sure we should structure the entire UK training mechanism around them alone.

    I'd prefer to see a group of well paid, dedictated career instructors, supported by volunteers if that was practical.

    The 'instructor' protion of the training bill is just about one of the smallest cost element

    Moggy
    "What you must remember" Flip said "is that nine-tenths of Cattermole's charm lies beneath the surface." Many agreed.

  29. #29
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    Yes Moggy but the problem we have here is that a good portiton of instructors are those who just want to hour build and not instruct, Im sure you can see the problem here.

    Im not saying all cfi's are like this but it can be a problem, and I have seen it happen all to many times to people, mainly at helicopter schools, cough er Heliflight uk, oooops I have said to much.

    Tell me this and it is something I fuly support and will until the end: Why should a 200hour+ pilot not be able to instruct for money just because he cant get a class one, like 60% of the population! Im sure an instructor course would not kill him, its not like if he get's paid he's going to fall out of the sky, I DON'T SEE HOW ANYBODY AND IM NOT SAYING YOU ARE CAN BE AGAINST PPL INSTRUCTORS FOR THE NPPL.

    O.k we all know you can do a PPL instructor rating but you can't get paid for it, so i ask you why should a commercial pilot who is just intrested in that B747 British airways captain job get away with it JUST BECAUSE HIS MEDICAL NUMBER SAYS 1.

    Regards

    R.weaver

    Safe legal flying

    THE NPPL INSTRUCTOR RATING WILL COME MY FELLOW COMRADES.
    Why Fly CAA when you can fly FAA for half the price, and be supported as a general aviation pilot!

  30. #30
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    Thumbs up

    Keep the comments coming and please try to encourage the instructor fraternity to participate. I sense there is a real feeling that motivation would improve no end towards the task of teaching students to fly if the awful debt burden on JAR-CPL FI could be reduced and more instructors, remunerated or part-time voluntary, were available from PPL or NPPL(SEP) holders. Before 1988 that was the case - we lost so much with the introduction of the BCPL and the subsequent JAR-CPL system. Motivation was the prime loss in my considered opinion.
    Trapper 69

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