South- Americian Airforces.

[xanadu]

For all our south-american members. Would love to have a discussion on the capabilites of the AF's in south-america. Specially Brazil , Argentina , Uruguay , Chile and the rest.

[WACHENR0DER]

I think Argentina is beginning to fall behind its neighbors (Brazil and Chile), they once had a capable air force (for the region)..but with Chile modernizing with newer block F-16s, and Brazil's strong aviation industry, the Argentinians will need some big modernization programs to replace the bulk of its A-4s and Mirages. Oh yes, don't forget Peru..which I find hte most interesting AF in the region, kind of reminds me of India, mixing Russian types with French types.

[Distiller]

A little bit off topic:
A very interesting site about South American airforces - the "Latin American Aviation Historic Society" http://www.laahs.com/index.htm
Chaco War and all. Really worth a look.

On topic:
Argentina in some respects showed a good - or at least couragous - performance in the past. But that state is in turmoil. How the economic situation affects their combat readiness one can only imagine, and they fly mostly antiques. Nevertheless I think Argentina has the potential for the strongest airforce in Latin America. (Not only because I was glider flying there ...).

But currently I see Peru clearly on top, Argentina & Brasil one level below and Chile & Venezuela another level lower.

For the future I doubt Peru will be able to keep up with Brasil or Chile as soon as those two start modernising and hiking up numbers.

[Charlie Echo]

A few words from a South American guy:

Argentina is suffering with the bad economic situation, but has the good upgraded A-4AR Fightinghawk (one squadron). I don't know of any big programs for the near future.

Chile: good. Economy is alright, same with the Air Force. Upgrades of the F-5E/F ("Tiger III") and Mirage 50 ("Elkan"). F-16C/D Blk50 on the way (10 fighters). Looks like a well balanced AF for the size of the country, much smaller than Argentina and Brazil. Has one IAI B-707 Falcon AEW, operational status controversial (some people say it's ok, some people say the opposite).

Peru: as Distiller said, good Russian hardware (Mig-29, Mi-24, Su-25) and the Mirage 2000P and Mirage5P. I read something about extensive use of Tucanos in COIN roles. People say the MiG-29s are in bad shape, waiting for an upgrade. Many doubts about R-77 status.

Don't forget Venezuela: F-16A, with a recent engine upgrade, and some Mirage 5 squadrons. The country has plenty of oil (is a member of OPEC), so they have good training and maintenance.

Brazil. The FAB has no PGM capability, waiting for the FX program and the F-5E/F upgrades (some 48 aircraft), and the AMX upgrade. First F-5E upgraded is almost being delivered. The AMX has not even started. Good points are the AEW capability (03 EMB-145AEW) and RS (02 EMB-145RS), already operational, and the good aerospace industry.

[King Jester]

Distiller wrote:

Argentina: How the economic situation affects their combat readiness one can only imagine, and they fly mostly antiques. Nevertheless I think Argentina has the potential for the strongest airforce in Latin America.

A group of flightsimmers recently visited the home of G6C (Grupo 6 Caza, or 6th Fighter Group) in Tandil, Argentina. Here one of the pictures they took:



Information (in spanish) about the visit to the airbase on the following links:

General Military Forum:
http://zonamilitar.community.everyon...ipts/thread.pl

Fightsimmers homepage:
http://www.ecv56condor.com.ar/Foro/v...?TopicID=10200

These guys, BTW, are working on a very fine combat simulation of the Falklands/Malvinas war which will be released in the future.

G6C now lines up all the FAA deltas such as Mirage III from former G8C, Mirage 5P from former G10C and the upgraded Fingers from G6C. The group has a total of 36 deltas, 30 of them flightworthy and 6 being rebuild at the time. Daily routine practice flights are carried out with 10 to 20 planes (one visitor counted 20 planes taking off one morning). Pilots fly 140 to 150 hours yearly.

King Jester

[Malandro]

Originally posted by Distiller
A little bit off topic:
A very interesting site about South American airforces - the "Latin American Aviation Historic Society" http://www.laahs.com/index.htm
Chaco War and all. Really worth a look.

On topic:
Argentina in some respects showed a good - or at least couragous - performance in the past. But that state is in turmoil. How the economic situation affects their combat readiness one can only imagine, and they fly mostly antiques. Nevertheless I think Argentina has the potential for the strongest airforce in Latin America. (Not only because I was glider flying there ...).

But currently I see Peru clearly on top, Argentina & Brasil one level below and Chile & Venezuela another level lower.

For the future I doubt Peru will be able to keep up with Brasil or Chile as soon as those two start modernising and hiking up numbers.

Argenine already ha dits chances to become the most powerful country in LA at the beginning of the 20th century when was among the ten mot rich countries in the earth and more important than Brazil nowadays ( which is among the 10 mmost powerful economically ) it had much better wealth distributions . Problems is from 1940 , Argentine suffered in the hand of populists politicians ( Peron , military dictatorship , etc ) . Itll takes generations for Argentine to be what brazil is nowadays economically speaking . IF Argetine have beetetr luck with their politicians . But nowadays Brazil has the most potential to become the Latina America leader in armed forces . We have the fourth biggest air company in the world . By 2010 we gonna have a nuclear submarine , we have an advnaced spatial program with partnerships with countries like France and CHina . Not to tal that today UN predicted Brazil will be the world leader in agricultures goods .

Chile: good. Economy is alright, same with the Air Force. Upgrades of the F-5E/F ("Tiger III") and Mirage 50 ("Elkan"). F-16C/D Blk50 on the way (10 fighters). Looks like a well balanced AF for the size of the country, much smaller than Argentina and Brazil. Has one IAI B-707 Falcon AEW, operational status controversial (some people say it's ok, some people say the opposite).

And CHile will upgrade its F16 with the israelis ( which is 50 plus versions ) .I wouldnt be surprised to see F16 Shuefas ( howdo we type it?) in LA . And yes their AEW is poerational , but htye spend the hell to maintain it .

Peru: as Distiller said, good Russian hardware (Mig-29, Mi-24, Su-25) and the Mirage 2000P and Mirage5P. I read something about extensive use of Tucanos in COIN roles. People say the MiG-29s are in bad shape, waiting for an upgrade. Many doubts about R-77 status.

Its official Peru addmitted the R77 are in bad shape and unable for use .

Don't forget Venezuela: F-16A, with a recent engine upgrade, and some Mirage 5 squadrons. The country has plenty of oil (is a member of OPEC), so they have good training and maintenance.

IN my opinion is among the most powerful airforce in the region . They have also upgraded F5s

[Camaro]

the "official" admission that the Peruvian R-77 was inoperative came from "la republica" which is one of those "el cheapo" (cheap)newspapers that people with education just dont read, thrust me on that.
sensationalism is their game and the abuse of the freedom of expression without base, other use for that kinda' newspaper is:
toiletpaper.
Camaro.

[Arthur]

Don't overestimate Peru. The Fitters, Hinds, Canberras, Tucanos and very likely the Mirage Vs are all grounded. I dug up some info from recent trip reports to Peru in a thread a while back
... la di da, how nice to have a search engine:

http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/sho...threadid=17106

[Srbin]

Peru looks really good on paper with their Mirage 2000s and Mig-29s with R-77 and Su-25s and other older aircraft but their pilots are not very experienced in those Mirage-2000s and not sure whats the deal with Mig-29s. Chile's AF is ok, they have one Phalcon AWAC and some upgraded F-5s and 10 F-16blk50/52 but Brazil in the future will be the best with upgraded F-5s, upgraded AMXs and then either SU-35 Super Flankers or Mirage-2000BRs and they also have some EMB-145 AWACS and EMB-145 RS.

Right now I'd probably put Chile as first but in the future no matter what comes out with FX program Brazil will have a better AF. I really hope they take the Su-35 SF

Btw Malandrao, any news on the FX competition, it looks like its going to be either M2KBR or Su-35, the Flanker being the better choice no doubt.

[A-29]

No one have mentioned but Ecuador has a powerful AF at least on the paper as the country is facing a lot of economical problems, but, as a small country, it has a capable AF (Peru has experienced in the Past). They fly Mirages F-1 (the only in South America), Kfirs upgraded to C-7 and Jaguars (also the only operator in South America). Backing up this fighters, there is a few number of A-37 Dragonflies.

I agree with Arthur, the situation of the Peruvian AF is not so good, several airplanes are facing serious problems in serviceability like the Mig-29, Mi-24, SU-22 etc.. The Mirage 2000P is their pride, the SU-25 they use in combat against the drug lords.
They also use the Tucano of the Grupo 51 on COIN role.
Peru is conducting a very aggressive move against drug traffic, shooting down several planes with its Tucanos and SU-25s.

Chile, right now operates two types of Mirages, one is the Mirage 50 upgraded and renamed Pantera. The other one were the Mirages V purchased from Belgium, upgraded and renamed Elkan.
The F-16s will replace the A-37 dragonflies and no doubt that Chile will be a small but very powerful AF. It is important to mention that the Phalcon AWACS rarely flies, is too expensive, a white elaphant.

Brazil is upgrading the entire combat fleet. We are introducing the A-29/AT-29 Super Tucano is the training, attack, COIN role, upgrading the entire AMX fleet and probably looking for an acquisition of a fourth batch of the aircraft comprising 20 to 24 aircraft bringing the total to 79 AMXs fully upgraded.
The fleet of F-5s is currently on upgrade to brought to a level similar to a Mirage 2000, an F-16 block 40/50 something like that. The total aircraft involved on the upgrade is 46 aircraft comprising 42 F-5Es and 4 F-5Fs. The Brazilian government is looking for at least more 15 F-5s most of them two-seater models (F-5Fs).
The fleet of Mirages III, around 16 airplanes will be phased out in 2005. A decision will take place a the end of this week. The front runners are the SU-35, JAS-39 Grippen and the Mirage 2000. There is a lot of especulation but the winner will be between the SU-35 and JAS-39 Gripen. Initially will be a batch of 12 aircraft to equip the 1o. GDA ( First Air Defence Group) at Anápolis AB, but, the expectations is to increase the number to 108.

Regards to all

[Camaro]

dear arthur.
you're right but the truth is far from:

The Fitters, Hinds, Canberras, Tucanos and very likely the Mirage Vs are all grounded.
lets go for parts.
1- fitters remain operating, about 20.
2-canberras yes all grounded.
3-M-5 yes the same but on long therme storage
4-hinds yes again all grounded
5-tucanos are operational.
as far as i know canberras and m-5 are no more useful, the same or better can be acomplished with the remaining aircraft.
another, a contract was already signed (AFM) with the russians for the whole russian package on the peruvian forces and that was last year and its being done as we speak.
anyway, the arrival of the f-16 to chili and whatever brazil chooses will put them clearly on the lead.
Camaro.

[Camaro]

these pics were taken about a month ago during a demonstration on the coast of lima. i hope you like them.
Camaro.

[Camaro]

a nice pair

[Camaro]

Su-25

[Camaro]

the M2000 giving you a bad hair day

[carrizo11]

Peru currently has Mig-29 for AD, M2K for multirol (precision strike and interceptor) Su-22 for interdiction (bomb trucks) Su-25 for precision attacks (ASMs) and CAS sorties and the A-37B for COIN and CAS.
of those models Mig-29 are requiring an overhaul in the short term (specially the 14 Mig-29S acquired from Belarus, SE acquired from Russia must be the youngest Mig-29s right now)
latter the Su-25 would need a similar work, both overhauls (along with maintenance/support to An-32 transport planes and Mi-17/Mi-25 helicopters) is being negociated with Russia.

The Su-22, A-37B and M2Ks are ok, the latters are about to get further upgrades thanks to a deal with France to be signed in the short term, but no details had being released yet.

Canberra and Mirage5 are both retired, the M5 were retired some 5 years ago and the Canberra began it's retirement before 2003.

Ecuador currently deploys Mirage F1 and Kfir CEs but Jaguars were retired a year ago(currently instorage, but without any hope to return service) FAe also has A-37Bs and maybe a couple Strikemasters flying their last sorties before retirement.

Chile has right now three combat squad, F-5, Mirage50 and M5, all were deeply upgraded last decade to Tigre III, Pantera and Elkan standars, but FACh has also 10 F-16 Block50+ on order to be delivered in 2006 (with further 6 Falcons as options)

Venezuela has F-16A/B (which right now are difficult to maintain and upgrade as Chavez is not welcome in the US) and Mirage50, with some AMX-T on order.

this four contries have the most modern airforces in south america, Argentina has mostly 60's/70's aircrafts, some upgraded some not, while Colombia has M5/Kfirs but most of them are old and tired, Uruguay, Paraguay and Boliva dont have any supersonic jet, even bolivia has only 16 T-33 "upgraded" as their only air assets, while Brazil has many F-5 and AMXs along with a few old MIIIs, the last ones would be replaced by F-X winner, when those planes arrive (Su-35 or M2000BRs) would be the best in the region, even over FACh Falcons but until then...FAB is kind of old, without any BVR or boresight AAM, nor AS missiles or 4th gen fighter.

regards

Carrizo11

[m.ileduets]

Originally posted by A-29


The fleet of F-5s is currently on upgrade to brought to a level similar to a Mirage 2000, an F-16 block 40/50 something like that. The total aircraft involved on the upgrade is 46 aircraft comprising 42 F-5Es and 4 F-5Fs. The Brazilian government is looking for at least more 15 F-5s most of them two-seater models (F-5Fs).

Regards to all

F-5 at a M2K or F-16 level?? What does the Brazil F-5 upgrade consist of in detail? IFR and better radar I assume, but what else?
BVR missiles, new "glass cockpit", HMS, new engines?
Does Brazil still consider purchasing second hand Swiss F-5Es and transform them to tandem seaters? There was a rumor about that a year ago or so, but I haven't heard anything since. After the US-Navy acquisition (32) and the Austrian decision to rent (12), there's only about 5 left, besides the 50 odd ones the Swiss AF wants to keep in their inventory.

[Arthur]

Very nice pics Camaro. I really like the one with the Fitter on eye-level, making me wish i was there... And thanks for the heads-up that the Fitters and Tucanos are flying again. Things are improving again then.

[Camaro]

my pleasrure dear arthur
about the tucanos, the only issue was that with the re-organization of the armed forces was that there was too many of them so they decided to put some for sale (6 total) bought by angola, that was it.
about the sukos...yeah! i wish i was there myself, the reason they put up that show (it was public) was to make things clear, because of the inmense BS going on on the news due to the massive dissinformation at the time and of course...no weapons were shown
Camaro.

[Camaro]

and another one of my favorite babe...

[Camaro]

dear carrizo, right on man you got it.
the reason for the soon to be needed overhauls is easy to deduct, i'll tell you this...
the air force owes petro-peru 80 million dollars (in fuel)...guess why?
yep brother...they're flying the hell out of them, which is good news.
Camaro.

[A-29]

Carrizo11
The Venezuelan AF has 8 AMX-T on order to use them as LIFT. Also they use a couple of F-5A/B for groud attack roles as well as the Tucano as trainer and COIN roles.

The Brazilian AF in currently upgrading the F-5 and AMX fleet and scheduled to finish the upgrade by 2006, the same time of the introduction of the new F-X (SU-35 or JAS-39 Gripen). Alongside them, we have 5 AWACS aircraft as well as three surveillance aircrafts, based on the civilian ERJ-145 (a very AFs in the world have this kind of airplane). The entire fighter fleet will be standarized so it will no problem for a pilot to convert from the A-29 (Super Tucano) to the AMX or F-5 of the new F-X

Regards,

[A-29]

m.ileduets,

In the F-5Es one of the cannons were removed to install the new radar (Grifo) capable of look-down, shoot-down, BVR.
IFR, new IFF, new chaffs and flares, HOTAS, glass cockpit, Helmet Mounted Visor, new HUD.

The Brazilian government is looking on another source as it failed to purchase the Swiss F-5s (shame). As there are not too many available, we are looking on Saudi F-5s, South Korean and Jordanian F-5s. The Saudi and South Koreans are well used, I don't think it is a good idea. The Jordanians..depends if they will buy more F-16s from to US to put the F-5s on sale.

Regards,

[A-29]

Camaro,

Wonderful pictures, I enjoy a lot. Hope that the Mig-29s and Mirages 2000 could come here to participate on Cruzex 2004, it will be great.

Regards,

[GoldenDragon]

Nice pictures, Camaro, Carrizzo.

Say, do you or anyone have pictures or information from the Peru-Ecuador border airwar of arund 1996 (I think)?

It was Mirages and Kfirs against Sukhois (I don't think Peru had Mig-29s at that point).

[m.ileduets]

Originally posted by A-29

In the F-5Es one of the cannons were removed to install the new radar (Grifo) capable of look-down, shoot-down, BVR.
IFR, new IFF, new chaffs and flares, HOTAS, glass cockpit, Helmet Mounted Visor, new HUD.

The Brazilian government is looking on another source as it failed to purchase the Swiss F-5s (shame). As there are not too many available, we are looking on Saudi F-5s, South Korean and Jordanian F-5s. The Saudi and South Koreans are well used, I don't think it is a good idea. The Jordanians..depends if they will buy more F-16s from to US to put the F-5s on sale.

Regards,

Thanks! Sounds good. The F-5 seems to have come back into "fashion" again. With its inherited dogfight qualities and low visibility in combination with a new Radar and HMS it should be an even match for airplanes half its age. What BVR missile is Brazil looking at in combination with the Grifo?

There probably aren't enough Swiss F-5s left by now for your needs, so it makes sense to look elsewhere.
Regards

[Camaro]

dear golden dragon, you're right
there were no migs at the time, only M5 and M2k wich had no air to air missiles, seems that the few Magics were due for overhaul or something and the french denied any assistance during that war (parts etc) so the peruvians could not establish any CAP therefore any superiority (jan-feb 1995), basically in few words...
they were caught in the toilet seat with their pants down, that's how bad it was for the peruvians.
on the other side the ecuatorian air force was preparing since the defeat from 1981 while the peruvians were concentrated on fighting "the shining path" terrorist/guerilla group wich cost the taxpayers 1 billion dollars to defeat.
Camaro.

[Camaro]

this is a photo sequence of a peruvian Mi-8 being shot dowh by what it seemed to be a blowpipe missile.
Camaro.

[Camaro]

next one

[Camaro]

and the final fate.