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Thread: Don't read this. You won't like it.

  1. #1
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    Don't read this. You won't like it.

    Don't read this.

    You won't like it.

    If you do read this, know that you drove me to do this

    There are two lightweight fighters currently undergoing flight test in Asia right now. We all know what their names are. What's the point? Both have been in development so long that any Western design will outclass them by the time they get into service. One of them doesn't even have it's vaunted indigenous engine yet. So which one is better? I think I found the answer:

    Who cares

    Fact of the matter is, neither of them are all that fascinating, and both have had their aerodynamic egos blown up by a bunch of wannabee know-it-alls. One of the aircraft is produced by a country with a healthy aviation industry, one which has had to rely on indigenous products in the past, and may at some point in the future do so again. The other was produced, as best as I can determine, to show off. Which hasn't really worked out all that well since the aircraft uses an American engine currently... Really, there was no need for it. No political isolation driving the formation of a national aviation industry, no lack of prospective sellers for high-tech military equipment, nothing. Just a big sign erected that says "Hey, we can play too". Yes, admittedly, they can play. Well almost, they still have that engine thing to work out

    Are either aircraft going to achieve large scale success on the export market? Let's examine. One aircraft has recently been declared available for export in the near future. The other was designed with the express purpose of exporting. The problem is that the first confirmed customer lacks a stable enough economic base to be purchasing the numbers required to make the project worthwhile. That means the home country will have to take some, taking money from the REAL 4th Generation fighter project they have ongoing. The fact remains, these things won't be available for large-scale exporting for another few years. Which, of course, means they will have aircraft such as the Gripen, Rafale, and EF-2000 to deal with en masse. Oh, and there really aren't all that many countries the US wouldn't sell a non-BVR surplus F-16 to, so that raises a very big question to a prospective customer-take a risk, or go with a proven winner? Time will tell.

    Both aircraft are capable. They were designed to replace the same aircraft (although one is a Xerox copy), and offer much improved capabilities. The problem is that both countries making these aircraft have much better combat aircrat in their inventory. Conveniently, they are both based on the same airframe-the Su-30. One country is going to be selling to the rival of the other. The problem is, even without their own new aircraft, that other still has a military to demolish its rival. Even when the rival imports the new aircraft from the first country. Again, it's all about "We can play too". Or maybe, "We didn't have to shop for ours". Besides, both developers would be much better off buying more twin-stick FLANKERs than wasting any more money. One country could use the money saved by not developing their aircraft to take lessons on jet engine design from the other Or they could always address domestic issues, that's always a good idea in civilized nations. The other country could do something intelligent and instead of providing aircraft to the other developer's rival, they could pour money into an airdrop or amhpibious landing capability and concentrate on their own self-created problems.

    Basically, both aircraft are capable. Both have good and bad points. Both countries have good and bad reasons for developing and fielding the aircraft. Both countries want to break into the export market. One of them wants to prove it can develop aircraft, since its rival obviously cannot. But the fact of the matter is that both aircraft are going to be obsolete in 10 years when the first JSFs become available. So why bother? One country bothers because it knows it can sell to at least one country, and hopes for more. The other bothers because at this point, they'd look bad if they gave up. Please, at least give up on the engine...

    Anyway, translate that yourself and digest the information. Most of it is opinion, and I found it rather enjoyable to compose When you get irritated, becoming all "how could you write that?", know that I really don't care. Everyone else seems perfectly fine flaming people who disagree with them, so rather than decide and personally insult someone myself, I decided to flame a whole topic

    Besides, I told you not to read it
    Sean O'Connor

    Sean's Blog, now with forum
    ACIG.org Team
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  2. #2
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    LOL.

    Wait are you talking about the Sopwith camel Vs F/A-18 superhornet debate here?
    Wrinkles wrinkles my kingdom fallen to a wrinkle

  3. #3
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    Originally posted by matt
    LOL.

    Wait are you talking about the Sopwith camel Vs F/A-18 superhornet debate here?
    Oh please, no contest there. Camel by a fair margin
    Sean O'Connor

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  4. #4
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    :)

    sorry couldnt resist.

    Do you have any links to news about the Wing Warping program conducted using the F/A-18 aircraft?

    Also (and sorry if it bugs ya) any info on the Fly by Electric program?
    Wrinkles wrinkles my kingdom fallen to a wrinkle

  5. #5
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    Great SOC! Wonderful words of wisdom, this is one of the best posts I have read so far. Well people will be flaming each other anyway... no matter what...
    MTFBWY

  6. #6
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    Talking

    the fact that the REAL 4th gen fighter is languishing in eval trials even after extensive israeli and russian help for a decade plus is obviously lost on our stupid camel.

    time ot head back for your tent SOC. dont poke finger where it doesnt belong.

  7. #7
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    Not very long ago when the USSR still existed the western nation thought that their planes were not only superior in combat but also in design and pilot quality. Funny to add that the mig25 was faster then any fighter like planes in the west. Funny that the mig21 saw more derivatives then any other planes. Funny to read that the Sovjet planes are easier to maintain and less costly. Funny to see that the MK and newer mig29 are quite impressive. The Su25 can even use rough landing strips and Wodka... The western arrogancia thinks that their planes and people are superior. The latest wars are won thanks to use of overwhelming force and unhumane weapons. Not much ,more then that. A chinese game I played yesterday showed me some wisdom. Those who shout do not listen. This is more then shouting.

    Maybe the planes are not up to F22 but then again I rather go for LCA or JF17 when looking at budget. How many nations are buying latest EF2000 or Rafale? Not much. And how many B2 or F22 are ordered? Not much. And are the LCA and FC1 finished products and extremely expensive? I don't think so. So rather agree with Indians, Chinese and Pakistani then believe this bs. I thought the westeners had enough wisdom to understand that Asians are capable of the same. Suprise suprise...

    I look up to the fact that these nations have the guts to develop a plane. Most western nations are begging the US to get some.

    Cheers.

  8. #8
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    Originally posted by Indian1973
    the fact that the REAL 4th gen fighter is languishing in eval trials even after extensive israeli and russian help for a decade plus is obviously lost on our stupid camel.

    GRR what are you trying to say about the Sopwith camel? Come on! out with it. So whats it has 4 wings and not 2, is it a lesser fighter?
    Wrinkles wrinkles my kingdom fallen to a wrinkle

  9. #9
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    Originally posted by PLA
    And how many B2 or F22 are ordered? Not much.
    thats a mute point, those AC are not for sale.
    Wrinkles wrinkles my kingdom fallen to a wrinkle

  10. #10
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    Originally posted by matt
    GRR what are you trying to say about the Sopwith camel? Come on! out with it. So whats it has 4 wings and not 2, is it a lesser fighter?
    Aw cmon Matt, you should know that size matters.

  11. #11
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    Not sure if thats an insult or a joke.

    :S
    Wrinkles wrinkles my kingdom fallen to a wrinkle

  12. #12
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    A joke.

    Actually, I really meant to start a flame war. j/k

  13. #13
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    And i thought you were one of the happier forum members..

    sorry i am a peace nik.

    *picks up his Anti war board
    Wrinkles wrinkles my kingdom fallen to a wrinkle

  14. #14
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    are you kidding now or what? B/c I was just kidding before.

  15. #15
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    "Not very long ago when the USSR still existed the western nation thought that their planes were not only superior in combat but also in design and pilot quality. "

    The range blunder regarding the Tu-22M is still infamous

    "Funny to add that the mig25 was faster then any fighter like planes in the west."

    Unless, of course, you consider it was designed to shoot down a Mach 3 recce platform

    "Funny that the mig21 saw more derivatives then any other planes."

    Funny to respond that it needed constant upgrading, resulting in new variants. If at first you don't succeed...

    "Funny to read that the Sovjet planes are easier to maintain and less costly."

    Funny to respond that unfortunately, cost doesn't matter when you're outclassed.

    "Funny to see that the MK and newer mig29 are quite impressive."

    Funny to look at the order book for the new MiG-29s.

    "The Su25 can even use rough landing strips and Wodka..."

    Funny to add that many, MANY aircraft have a rough field capability. Not a strictly Soviet concept, sorry.

    "The western arrogancia thinks that their planes and people are superior."

    Yes, our pilots are superior. When was the last time we failed to beat down a bunch of other pilots in combat? And our aircraft must be superior as well, because it's mostly FSU hardware we keep destroying.

    "The latest wars are won thanks to use of overwhelming force and unhumane weapons. Not much ,more then that."

    What's wrong with overwhelming force? And what inhumane weapons are you referring to? Superiority doesn't mean inhumanity.

    "A chinese game I played yesterday showed me some wisdom. Those who shout do not listen. This is more then shouting."

    What?

    "Maybe the planes are not up to F22 but then again I rather go for LCA or JF17 when looking at budget."

    Maybe? There's the understatement of the YEAR

    "How many nations are buying latest EF2000 or Rafale? Not much."

    7 nations in all for the two aircraft. That's 4 more than the combined buyers of the "other" two aircraft...

    "And how many B2 or F22 are ordered? Not much."

    How many do we need? Not many. When one B-2 can distribute 80 GPS-guided bombs on one mission, you don't need a fleet of 200.

    "And are the LCA and FC1 finished products and extremely expensive? I don't think so."

    Since they aren't finished products, how do you know what the final prices will be? How do you know how inexpensive they will or won't be?

    "So rather agree with Indians, Chinese and Pakistani then believe this bs. I thought the westeners had enough wisdom to understand that Asians are capable of the same. Suprise suprise..."



    "I look up to the fact that these nations have the guts to develop a plane. Most western nations are begging the US to get some."

    Well, let me know when they change their minds and start begging India and China for their planes instead
    Sean O'Connor

    Sean's Blog, now with forum
    ACIG.org Team
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  16. #16
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    LCA and Thunder are not desined to compete with the latest aircraft from the west. IAF and PAF will not be taking on USAF F-22s or F-35s and RAF Typhoons in the future.


    LCA was designed as an IAF light fighter to take out PAF F-16s and F-7s and strike Pakistani bases and armoured formations.

    Like wise, FC-1 will protect against Indian strike planes (Jags, MIG-27s), LCAs, MIG-21/23/29S, not against IAF SU-30s.......


    The whole comparison with the latest western designs is meaningless as we plan to have Rafale or F-16 Block 60 (if US play ball) in service.

    PAF would like to see its self in the year 2010 with the following structure


    4 sqds F-16 A/B MLU
    4 sqd Rafale
    6 sqd F-7PG
    6 sqd FC-1

  17. #17
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    When the Chinese have our manufacturing base for lunch and the Indians eat our service industries for dinner, will we still be laughing then?

    The flame wars of the LCA and FC1 are annoying. But for those who aren't just teenagers or CNN/FOX educated, they are also quite revealing about the rapidity of the strides made and the technological base being developed.

    And considering the starting point of these countries, it's nothing short of a superlative effort.

    We can laugh today. What about tomorrow?

  18. #18
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    Originally posted by kyle
    When the Chinese have our manufacturing base for lunch and the Indians eat our service industries for dinner, will we still be laughing then?

    The flame wars of the LCA and FC1 are annoying. But for those who aren't just teenagers or CNN/FOX educated, they are also quite revealing about the rapidity of the strides made and the technological base being developed.

    And considering the starting point of these countries, it's nothing short of a superlative effort.

    We can laugh today. What about tomorrow?
    Actually the Indians can have our service industry if they want it.

    Besides, think of the percentage of the world's population that resides in those two countries. The odds that one of them would develop a decent aircraft aren't all that bad

    How is it some sort of super effort for China? It's not like they haven't ever built an aircraft. They're even building an indigenous aircraft superior to the FC-1, so the FC-1 itself stands as no singularly great achievement. India has been license building aircraft for a long time also, so the knowledge base was there as well. Hell HAL is even going ot license build something far superior to the LCA.

    I'll laugh today, tomorrow, and the next time someone responds here
    Sean O'Connor

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  19. #19
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    now here is a man who knows everything about the aircraft. he even knows why they were designed. BTW i dont need to write his name down. we all know who he is.
    well done mate you sure can run for village idiot next year when H117 has to give up his post.
    IDIOT MORON FOOL LOL this is a flame thread anyways.
    I will laugh today, tommorow and the next time the idiot, moron, fool replies LOL

    Hope no hard feelings you know who

  20. #20
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    Are you implying that aircraft are designed for no reason whatsoever? Next you'll be telling me that coconuts migrate...
    Sean O'Connor

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  21. #21
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    ofcourse they migrate you fool.
    you seriously didnt know that? cocunuts take the nothern route out of india towards peshawar, while cocunuts in USA tend to take the southernly route towards coco bongo in edge city.

    you will need an expert on coconut migrations to tell you about the other areas where they might go

  22. #22
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    Are they carried by african or european swallows?

  23. #23
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    Originally posted by Vympel
    Are they carried by african or european swallows?
    I believe it has to be an african swallow, but two of them have to suspend it between them on a piece of creeper.
    Sean O'Connor

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  24. #24
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    Originally posted by google
    are you kidding now or what? B/c I was just kidding before.
    YUP i am kiddin as well mate.. :P


    lol..

    Oh i am sorry but Why does it have to be African Swallow.. it only has 2 wings and its soo small!




    Emma bunton on TV..hmm she nice.. DROOL
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  25. #25
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    Crap I forgot, African swallows are non-migratory, so they don't factor into coconut migration patterns at all...
    Sean O'Connor

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  26. #26
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    Originally posted by PLA
    but then again I rather go for LCA or JF17 when looking at budget.
    The FC-1/JF-17 is the only one of the two with a foreign customer. And like the K-8, it will have moderate success among a few less well off nations as previous products from the parent nation, xerox copies or not, had enjoyed in the past.

    As far as building its own planes. China has no choice. What Chinese would not want to see PLAAF F-16s, F-15s and F-18s? Or even imagine the F-22 or F-35?

    But like the International Space Station, the US has and will for the future block any Chinese access to cutting edge technology. So what do you do? You send a man to space on your own (albeit 40 years late) and began the construction of your own space station.

    Just because someone denies you the best, it doesn't mean you should quietly lie down and die. You accept the conditions and do your best to narrow the gap.

  27. #27
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    Red face

    The reverse-engineered Chinese coconut could be made so cheaply that even African swallows could afford them.

  28. #28
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    Originally posted by GoldenDragon
    The FC-1/JF-17 is the only one of the two with a foreign customer. And like the K-8, it will have moderate success among a few less well off nations as previous products from the parent nation, xerox copies or not, had enjoyed in the past.

    As far as building its own planes. China has no choice. What Chinese would not want to see PLAAF F-16s, F-15s and F-18s? Or even imagine the F-22 or F-35?

    But like the International Space Station, the US has and will for the future block any Chinese access to cutting edge technology. So what do you do? You send a man to space on your own (albeit 40 years late) and began the construction of your own space station.

    Just because someone denies you the best, it doesn't mean you should quietly lie down and die. You accept the conditions and do your best to narrow the gap.
    Notice how China's flag has the same colors as McDonalds flag?

  29. #29
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    "Both aircraft are capable. They were designed to replace the same aircraft (although one is a Xerox copy), and offer much improved capabilities. The problem is that both countries making these aircraft have much better combat aircrat in their inventory. Conveniently, they are both based on the same airframe-the Su-30."

    So true.

  30. #30
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    You are as insane as a mad cow.

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