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Thread: Fox Moth G-ABVJ Photo Interpretation help...

  1. #1
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    Fox Moth G-ABVJ Photo Interpretation help...

    Hello all,

    I'm building a model of this machine for the Sywell Aviation Museum as it was the first 'airliner'(or air taxi) service based at the airfield.... Please see photo. Originally I thought she was silver, but this photo seems to indicate a different colour as the Midland titles are clearly black and the reg seems to be white, even if we consider colour reversal in old photos - anyone got a best informed guess as to her colour?

    ATB

    TT

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  2. #2
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    Pure speculation on my part but I'm guessing something similar to this.


  3. #3
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    You wanted a guess, silver! This was for a new, short lived airline where flamboyance might not have been in abundance and today's more ambitious schemes are prevalent.
    http://www.flightmemory.com/ I have been round the world 11.6 times!

  4. #4
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    My initial thoughts were also a very pale Blue with Silver lettering. I also thought of a pale Yellow with white letters. Pre-war light aircraft and their colours are one of my great interests and these colours are so often unrecorded. In fact I have a letter from the late doyen of civil aircraft historians, the late A. J. Jackson in which he states "we didn't much bother about colours".

    In this photo the Tiger has a Yellow fuselage with Silver wings, White letters on the fuselage and Yellow on the Wings. The Auster behind has a pale Blue fuselage.

    John


    [IMG] photo File1156 2_zpsogaqxa2i.jpg[/IMG]
    [IMG] photo File1156_zpsntpetc0x.jpg[/IMG]
    Last edited by John Aeroclub; 20th June 2017 at 17:45.

  5. #5
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    For what it's worth my guess was also a pastel blue similar to the Puss Moth posted by Chad.
    I'm fairly sure it's not silver, it just doesn't have a metallic sort of sheen.

    EDIT: Did DH aircraft (or others of that time) come with a palette of available colours from the factory, as with today's cars? Might it be one of a small range of colours offered by the manufacturer? Or were customers allowed to specify any colour they liked?
    Last edited by Tin Triangle; 20th June 2017 at 09:38.
    Armchair enthusiast, but also a fan of sofas and recliners.

  6. #6
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    I know for certain that this pre-war 60GIII was pale Blue with Silver flying surfaces.

    John
    Last edited by John Aeroclub; 20th June 2017 at 14:17.

  7. #7
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    Dear all,

    Many thanks indeed for your thoughts which are very much appreciated! I am lucky in that the initial aircraft (DH60 Moths) of the East Mids Aero Club, thence Northants Aero Club have noted colours - unfortunately they just say blue and silver, yellow and red etc - but dont note which is the fuselage and which are the wings!

    That said its pretty safe that of the two the wings were 'usually' silver on a percentage basis presumably because the wings were 'standard' barring the fitment of eg HP slots etc - which I think were an optional extra - whereas the fuselage would be fitted out to the customers specification including interior trim etc - one assumes that would extend to fuselage colour?

    John, we were lucky enough to be donated about 12 handmade 1930s models from the 1930s of various Moths - this chap has kindly put some of them on his website. They are important because as contemporary models they are highly likely to show the original schemes of those machines - https://sites.google.com/site/flybyn...viation-museum

    They were from a large Museum and I think may have been destined to have been disposed of!

    TT
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  8. #8
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    There is however still a case for Silver. Silver dope has good covering properties and this aeroplane had been recently a Hillman Airways aeroplane with it's company livery of Dark Blue and White.

    John

  9. #9
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    To be fair would be a great deal easier to paint all over silver! Its the 1/72 Aeropoxy model which the second element of the name is apt! However I have been able with a bit of fairing to graft on the Airfix 1/72 Tiger Moth empennage and front cowling with a bit of modification which is MUCH better moulded. The wings with an adjustment to the sweepback can also be used and the Fox seemed to have a bigger, and broader fuel tank so I have kept that and added the Tiger outer wings. All this must seem like I'm a decent modelmaker - I'm not but I'm doing my best!

    Again, many thanks to you all for kindly taking your time to help.

    ATB

    TT
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  10. #10
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    Hi TT

    Sorry but I missed your post in between my own posts. I'm convinced that the Aeropoxy kit is another "borrowing" of my original Vac kit which later had injected wings.

    It seems to be virtually unknown that the Fox top centre section is not only wider but it also tapers from front to back with the rear spar being wider than the front spar. This is how they were able to use the Tiger Moth wings with their differing root angles.The only change being the metal fitting on the lower wing rear spar. Some Foxes (mainly the Speed model) have a fairing between the lower wing root and the fuselage.

    The Fox centre section/tank/struts came as a pre assembled item and even the repair manual General Layout drawings misleadingly show a parallel centre section, so all of the models/ drawings are wrong (including my old 35 years old kit).

    The pale blue lines on the photo represent an incorrect parallel centre section, the other lines show what is actually the case. Note how the rear vertical (Red) struts diverge and are not parallel to the front (Blue) ones.

    The museum models colour schemes look authentic. However the Yellow/ Black Moth appears to have the National Flying Services logo on the fuselage nose. If so I believe that the Yellow should be Orange.

    John
    Last edited by John Aeroclub; 20th June 2017 at 16:03.

  11. #11
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    John, as ever, much obliged to you! I did wonder about the rear fillets and now you've answered the question!

    I was lucky enough to have a trip in G-ACEJ the other year when she was owned by Stuart Beaty (then a fellow Sywell Messenger Trustee - G-AKIN is our machine) and what a marvellous aerial carriage she is! I loved the 'porthole' from the cabin to cockpit so you could see the pilot (c/w gosport tube!) and the fact that from the rear of the cabin facing forward the front cabin windows champher in to give a lovely near panoramic view, the engine blocking less of the view than you might think.

    In regard to the model, I think the photo under artificial light is misleading, plus given its age it may have bleached a bit - it is quite orangey - and yes its NFS - I forget where they came from, somewhere in the Home Counties I think - but in tracing the histories of the various aircraft they were all based at the same airfield during a particular time period so it seems the maker may have simply made models of those machines he saw locally. There was a Hornet Moth too but unfortunately the previous Museum let something heavy land on it so it was beyond saving...

    ATB and thanks again

    TT
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    Herewith the photos as promised- I think I captured them all! The Tiger Moth is actually one made by the famous aeromodeller (HJ Towns?) whose models are very sought after!
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  15. #15
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    H.J. Towner (Harold) A well known flying scale modeler. I have the plans of his twin rubber band powered Airspeed Envoy which I've been promising myself to build for about 50 years. Is the Hornet Moth really too far gone? Have you a photo?

    Your Tiger featured on the front cover of Aeromodeller march 1972. I must get down to see your museum at some point.

    John

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    Hi John,

    I was struggling to remember his name and forgot to read the caption as a refresher - yes HJ Towner - I wasnt far off from memory! The Tiger is exquisite - the rudder pedals and control column move in concert with the controls and the exhaust is a work of art! We were lucky to rescue it! I'm grateful for the Aeromodeller tip - I didnt know that! This thread reminded me about the Hornet actually so I pinged the chap who had it - I must admit I thought it may have been consigned to the Hangar In The Sky however he is working on it still and he says he could save it. There is a Genet Moth too but I know for a fact both wings were crushed and snapped off and in essence there was a fuselage and a tangle of rigging. He still has it so if he cant rescue the wings he will present the fuselage on its own.

    They are lovely things but as I said destined for a far less rosy future had we not had the opportunity to pick them up (due to the kind offices of the Museum concerned!)

    Also in the 'batch' was an absolutely lovely Hawker Fury, not made by the same maker -in a small display case. I thought it was just a nice example of the 1/.48 Airfix one but in fact was scratchbuilt in 1941. The other star item was an original FROG Whitley model - a wooden one, with bulbs in the nose and tail turrets. We think it was a manufacturers model for exhibition display. Its mint and rather lovely!

    Not sure whether I can get a photo of the Hornet, will try.

    ATB

    TT
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  17. #17
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    I was interested in a picture of the Hornet just simply to ascertain whether the damage was repairable (as I have some small knowledge in this area).

    I think your Whitley is in fact one of the wooden pre-fab wartime Penguin kits which had some small parts (props wheels and engines) in plastic (as opposed to the pre-war injected acetate resin kits). I have a Barracuda from this wartime utility range. The use of u/s light bulbs for gun turrets was one of the tips out of Aeromodeller during the war years.

    I think that your Tiger was about the last model H.J. finished. He was a prolific modeler since the 1930s.

    John

  18. #18
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    That's superb John thank you! Never seen that before - much obliged!

    No, the Whitley definitely isnt a prefab kit - for starters its about 1/48 scale, is professionally finished and there are acetate turrets - the bulbs are inside them and we think are designed to light up!
    It has a Made by International Model Aircraft transfer underneath.

    We are well familiar with the Penguin/Skybird range, examples of which can be seen in our small 'History of Modelmaking' Display.

    Let me know when you fancy popping down and I'll give you the Cooks Tour!

    ATB

    TT
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  19. #19
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    I don't know whether this is helpful or not. A model Fox Moth in the RAeC collection listed as made c. 1950, by whom and why not recorded, was on load to the Shuttleworth Trust and is now on display at RAF Hendon along with other models

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  20. #20
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    Every snippet helps. and probably a genuine colour scheme, pre 1935 before it was sold to Australia. ABXS has a long and interesting life and I believe it is still extant in Australia as VH-UVL, tho by now it's a bit of a "Triggers broom" as a hangar fell on it at some point.

    John

  21. #21
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    Thanks both, much appreciated! I must admit to having had my fill of camouflaged machines in modelmaking terms over the past 35 years and the 1930s civil stuff I now find much more appealing!

    Best regards

    TT
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