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Thread: GB Independence Day

  1. #31
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    So Switzerland is 50% less democratic than Romania?

    you didn't follow what I said. I did not say that home ownership is unhealthy, I said the obsession with home ownership as the only apparent route to individual prosperity is unhealthy. It is exclusive rather than inclusive. You defeat your own argument, by your suggestion we are considerably less democratic that we were 20 years ago.

    If democracy was only provided by home ownership, you would be taking us back to the 18th century. What next, remove the right for women to own property when married?
    As a little tax haven, probably, yes.

    In all likely we are. Too many special interests, immigration pushing up rental prices so that people can never save enough for a house.

    I didn't say that people without homes shouldn't be able to vote, I simply said it was better if voters had homes, rather than it being the preserve of wealthy elites.

  2. #32
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    Immigration at the root of all our problems again? What a surprise.
    It's the housing policy failures for the past 30 years that have cause the issues, that and the associated ideological mantras that went with them. And it has definitely got worse in the past seven years

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryan View Post
    Taxpayer, government, public.8

    Who's fault is that? Labour's again.
    Who's fault is what? Your confusion?

  4. #34
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    Even you, with your extreme views must concede that if we go on as we are we risk covering the whole of the country with brick boxes and concrete. Would your grandchildren approve ?

    You might not care especially if you are too old.

  5. #35
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    This conversation - or at least my corner of it - is about the value - and values - of home ownership as against rental - not the number of units built.

    But since you mention it (and of course supply and demand applies) high-rise is still completely possible, we don't need to spill ever further out into the countryside. The trouble is 'market forces' - developers don't do it as these can't be sold privately for as much as detached houses 'in the country' - even if they are actually endless repetitions of brick boxes. It's all about association, and none of it happened by accident.

    I don't think my views are as extreme as all that. They certainly aren't unusual in the 'real world'.

    I have two daughters, aged 4 and 6. I am mainly, as you would expect, thinking about them.
    Last edited by Beermat; 20th June 2017 at 21:19.
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  6. #36
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    Who's fault is what? Your confusion?
    Immigration at the root of all our problems again? What a surprise.
    It's the housing policy failures for the past 30 years that have cause the issues, that and the associated ideological mantras that went with them. And it has definitely got worse in the past seven years
    Market forces are market forces. Demand increases, price increases.

    It got worse after 2008. The last Labour government allowed prices to be artificially jacked up by the dumbest mortgages in history (125% mortgages at 7 times annual income). Then people lose them, then the silly mortgages stop, landlords buy the repossessed houses and prices are left ridiculously high. The only way you bring the price down is by reducing demand, which means limiting the amount of houses an individual can purchase for rent and cracking down on the buy-to-launder market in London.

    Green belt building hasn't helped, builders now build on green belts not as a last resort but as a first resort, simply because they can sell them for more. So much for affordable housing.
    Last edited by Ryan; 20th June 2017 at 22:03.

  7. #37
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    You really are confused. You say 'market forces are market forces' and then decry the lack of state intervention when a government 'allows' products to be sold to a market.

    Please think it through, it's no fun when it's this easy.

  8. #38
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    You say a lot without actually making a point BM, has anyone ever told you that before? Market forces wrt to rental demand are increased by uncontrolled immigration amongst other things.

  9. #39
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    I think that he is the product of an over promoted polytechnic - you can expect no better.

  10. #40
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    It's the housing policy failures for the past 30 years that have cause the issues, that and the associated ideological mantras that went with them.
    And essentially those housing policies are aimed at allowing people to have something they cannot afford so is it any wonder that they failed?

    In the commercial world (the market forces world) houses are built for profit (and there is absolutely nothing wrong with that) so while there may be house-builders in business, building-land available and an adequate supply of skilled-labour and materials, there is a shortage of people who can afford the houses that are being built...

    ...or rather, some people find themselves priced-out of the market.

    'Market forces' set the price for a house and if that price allows a reasonable profit, and a limited risk, the house-builders will build houses until it becomes unprofitable or too risky to continue.

    Now it is all very well to say 'if there were more houses on the market that the price would come down' there comes a point at which this deflation would effectively bring house-building to a halt. The cost of building-land, materials and skilled-labour are relatively fixed so there must be a minimum cost for a house (and a modest profit) that cannot be lowered no matter how many you new-build.

    The problem is lots of people cannot afford even that minimum cost...

    ...and that is not the fault of the house-builders.

    'Social housing' is designed to solve this problem but, as I see it, there are two problems.

    Firstly, many people in social-housing cannot afford to pay a 'commercial' level of rental so that the government can operate as a quasi-commercial landlord and so the 'government' must subsidise this social-housing.

    All well-and-good except that the man who has bought his own house also has to pay, in taxation, for a proportion of the population that cannot afford one. And this becomes a real problem for government as the growth of social-housing outstrips the growth of private-housing.

    Secondly, if you have a limitless supply of people who need a house, but cannot afford one, the only result of a social-housing policy as outlined above is that it will collapse unless limits are placed on the amount of social-housing that can be built (or in reality, can be sustainably afforded through taxation).

    As in most systems of balancing forces, if you have too many that aren't fixed all you get is a unstable system and eventual, but inevitable, collapse.

    Ideology doesn't really enter into it!
    WA$.

  11. #41
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    CD - absolutely.

    John. Though I do not need to defend my academic record I do enjoy pointing out what an arrogant twit you are when you get it wrong. The University of Liverpool, very definitely not any kind of Polytechnic and never was. I have a B.Sc in Geology from an Earth Sciences faculty rated fourth in the country at the time. Go on, where did you go? Let's compare, shall we? And I am not a 'product' of anything or anywhere, I went there to learn (and go on exotic field trips), not be produced. And it was a long time ago.

    Ryan, if you cannot understand the fundamental self-contradiction in your position then I cannot help you beyond this:

    You claim "The last Labour government allowed prices to be artificially jacked up by the dumbest mortgages in history (125% mortgages at 7 times annual income)"

    You are a Thatcherite capitalist conservative who not only wishes a centre-ground government had stopped financial products from being sold to a willing market through some sort of state intervention into a free market economy but seems to blame the inevitable problems (that this free-market speculative capitalism produced) on the.. left! This latter misapprehension shows quite astonishing levels of confusion, and yet you seem oblivious to this.

    I hope this isn't too difficult for you?
    Last edited by Beermat; 21st June 2017 at 14:50.
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  12. #42
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    It's not too difficult at all Beermat, I have A BSc (Hons) in Air Transport Engineering, so pretty comprehensible.

    ....and you're clearly used to working with old fossils......... John?
    Last edited by Agent K; 21st June 2017 at 13:46.

  13. #43
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    Ha.. it's OK, I wasn't asking you AK, and I don't really have a 'thing' about it either way - it's only because John brought it up in an attempt to denigrate.

    Yes it's comprehensible if you are able to assimilate information that doesn't conform to your preconceptions. Something they used to be quite big on in academia.
    Last edited by Beermat; 21st June 2017 at 14:44.
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  14. #44
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    AK

    It is always important for you to know who the enemy is ! You stand accused of a 'friendly fire' incident.

    The dignity of a BSc. in Air Transport engineering - whatever that is - has been imperilled !

  15. #45
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    So tell all, John. Which university did you go to? This question has been asked a number of times, including by me, and I don't recall that you ever replied. Which could imply that you went to the 'university of life' and therefore have no knowledge of what you always disparage. You are probably a few decades out of date in thinking on this, as well as many other things

  16. #46
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    Yes, that is me - superannuated ! I tend to live, and my wife will confirm this, in the year 1940. If I wasn't using my PC - horrible modern machinery - I would be typing this note on my trusty, well greased Olympic machine. I do have trouble finding the right size of new tapes.

    I normally smoke a pipe - Old Shagwell Pipe Tobacco, enjoy a pint of mild and bitter And meet Barney for a natter and a bag of pork scratchings at the t'Old Pig & Pizzle.

    My education must remain forever a mystery. It is not my place to foment envy and discontent in the breasts of my fellows. If I gave you the information for which you are groping, possession of such might well engender feelings of inadequacy in the mind of the reader. For this, I cannot be responsible.

    I can ease your mind in one respect; I most certainly did not grace the portals of any inflated polytechnic masquerading as a university. Just a cotten pickin minute ! My memory stirs. I did once do just that. Please do not ask for details, just the memory still produces a savage rash. Still I feel the pain. This much I can comment on; their continuous attempts at left wing indoctrination made their mark and I'm about to becomea paid up member of the Socialist Workers Party. That's what you call a conversion.

    Trekkie, see you at the next Workers convention.

  17. #47
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    Thought so.

    Oh well

    I have never been to a workers convention. Would you recommend one?

  18. #48
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    Never mind that, the Pig and Pizzle sounds promising. Do they do Old Toe-jam Bitter there?
    www.whirlwindfighterproject.org
    It's all good. Probably.

  19. #49
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    Ryan, if you cannot understand the fundamental self-contradiction in your position then I cannot help you beyond this:

    You claim "The last Labour government allowed prices to be artificially jacked up by the dumbest mortgages in history (125% mortgages at 7 times annual income)"

    You are a Thatcherite capitalist conservative who not only wishes a centre-ground government had stopped financial products from being sold to a willing market through some sort of state intervention into a free market economy but seems to blame the inevitable problems (that this free-market speculative capitalism produced) on the.. left! This latter misapprehension shows quite astonishing levels of confusion, and yet you seem oblivious to this.
    I do not bother with categorisation of right or left. Dumb is dumb. Labour was dumb. Labour inflated house prices by allowing dumb mortgages, whilst also running a deficit during a boom. Exactly everything you shouldn't do.

  20. #50
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    There was no regulation to say you can't. If you were involved in financial services you could do what the hell you liked. That was indeed dumb. This is close to the source of my politics, which are left - as opposed to Blairite. What is curious is how we read the same thing so oppositely. But surely you have to concede that allowing a financial services market to do what it wanted with no care about long-term effects is a variation on a Right theme rather than anything the Left would do?

    It is interesting you don't wish to see it from a political point of view when it doesn't suit your argument. I guess it does mean you can see the contradictions.
    Last edited by Beermat; 21st June 2017 at 20:00.

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