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Thread: GB Independence Day

  1. #1
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    GB Independence Day

    Next Friday, 23rd June is the first anniversary of the most momentous date in the long history of these islands. The EU referendum was held, culminating in what is now known as Independence Day. A day when Britain rediscovered its national sovereignty, and its pride and regained control over its borders.

    Celebrate this day in any way you can but, do celebrate it. We are not any longer in thrall to foreign powers.

  2. #2
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    ok, I'll bite just to keep you happy, as I am sure that is what you intended.

    Errr, just in case you have had a case of heatstroke John, I'm sure you would like me to point out a few factual errors in your post.

    First, and perhaps most important, we have not yet left the EU and therefore to suggest it is independence day is not true, fake news, being economical with the actualite etc.
    You might like to call it that, no one else I know does
    Most momentous date? Lots of other would take precedent, for example 21st October 1805
    The negotiations started today. Therefore you do not know, no one knows, whether we will 'gain control of our border' in the way you suggest. It may be that we end up with some elements of the customs union and free movement of people. It is a possibilty

    My pride in britain reduced an notch on that day, and subsequent political events have not made me any prouder.

    We're a more insular, nastier and less tolerant nation on balance since that date. Nothing to be proud of there.

    Actually I'll take it a bit further, it is people of your sort who have made me take this view
    Last edited by trekbuster; 19th June 2017 at 16:11.

  3. #3
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    Next Friday, 23rd June is the first anniversary of the most momentous date in the long history of these islands. The EU referendum was held, culminating in what is now known as Independence Day. A day when Britain rediscovered its national sovereignty, and its pride and regained control over its borders.

    Celebrate this day in any way you can but, do celebrate it. We are not any longer in thrall to foreign powers.
    I voted "out", and would again. However I see nothing to celebrate, it has just fuelled the terrible divisions in our country.

  4. #4
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    I take little notice of minor detail. I paint with broad brush strokes.

    I'm pretty pleased with your confession. I think that you are scheduled for further disappointment.

  5. #5
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    Planemike, I'm sending you a comforting man hug. It'll all be better in the morning !

  6. #6
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    Planemike, I'm sending you a comforting man hug. It'll all be better in the morning !
    Thank you, John, appreciated.... Wish I thought it was going to be better in the morning, I would even settle for next year !!! This disunity in the country is painful to see.

  7. #7
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    Interesting article here, particularly the paragraph:

    "Last year’s triumph for Brexit has often been paired with the rise of Donald Trump as evidence of a populist surge. But most of those joining in with the ecstasies of English nationalist self-assertion were imposters. Brexit is an elite project dressed up in rough attire. When its Oxbridge-educated champions coined the appealing slogan “Take back control,” they cleverly neglected to add that they really meant control by and for the elite. The problem is that, as the elections showed, too many voters thought the control should belong to themselves."


    http://www.nybooks.com/daily/2017/06...-of-a-fantasy/

  8. #8
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    Garbage. The elite were quite happy with endless droves of cheap labour.

  9. #9
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    So far the score on the boards seems to be EU 1, UK 0 in terms of the negotiations. The UK Govt. have conceded on the timetable. Even the Tory graph concedes that the UK 'caves in'
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017...ech-dup-live2/

    And Boris got monstered by Carney at the mansionhouse

    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/bu...-a7798551.html

    Don't get me wrong,,I am as keen as anyone to ensure the UK gets a good outcome, it's just that my concept of a good outcome is not leaving the Customs Union and having a substantial proportion of the benefits of the single market retained
    Last edited by trekbuster; 20th June 2017 at 12:27.

  10. #10
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    The timetable was always scheduled for 19th June. Where do these papers get this crap from. And the NI peace deal wasn't an issue before? Again, where does this left wing bile emanate from?

    I'll judge how the negotiations go based on how much we have to pay and what deal we get. I couldn't give a rat's backside over (alleged) point-scoring on other issues.

  11. #11
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    Not sure how you equate the NI peace deal to left wing bile? can you elaborate?

    A read of this should inform you more than you clearly are informed, and to me it's a right wing issue due to the implications of the failed General Election for the conservative party and the need to form a coalition with the DUP.

    https://www.bloomberg.com/politics/a...-quicktake-q-a

  12. #12
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    My point is that the NI peace deal was always going to be an issue regardless. Making it appear like a concession is left-wing bile.

    We all remember the EU saying that the Brexit bill had to be paid before trade negotiations start, well who climbed down on that one? The new negotiator now says that the trade talks will begin after sufficient progress has been achieved with Brexit negotiations and nothing will be agreed until it's all (Brexit bill and trade deal) agreed.

    And how do you see a 5.5% increase in vote share as a failed election? Only your beloved pro-Remain parties lost votes relative to 2015. A failed election is when only 42% of the electorate turn up to vote because that means more than half the country thinks all the choices are a great big steaming pile of ****e.

    https://www.reuters.com/article/us-f...KBN1990Q4?il=0
    Last edited by Ryan; 20th June 2017 at 15:37.

  13. #13
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    This is a train wreck happening before our very eyes. Absolutely every mistake that could have been made has been made.

    Our PM and self-appointed chief negotiator (May) has made herself look stupid and vulnerable while going in fists pumping saying she wants a fight.

    She has not completed negotiations with the 10-MP minority-interest party that could give her any semblance of mandate but who know they can wag the dog for all kinds of unreasonable demands in exchange.

    The honest broker that was the UK Government, one that assembled and maintained a peace deal, will henceforward be siding with one side in a bitter and often bloody conflict.

    Despite that massive failure of diplomacy looming on this front she is now also and simultaneously negotiating with absolutely no cards with - or rather against - the combined diplomatic teams of many European nations.

    At home there is rebellion in the streets and mutterings of a leadership bid. Meanwhile inflation is growing and wages remain flat.

    Boy, have we been made to look stupid. So forgive me for politicising this, I know this is not a failure of Conservatism or Capitalism themselves, just one of thinking-it-through. Nevertheless I just want to say, for the record, that as an in-voting Labour supporter not one of this train of ignorance and arrogance-based errors was in my name. If we feel the bile rising - and I am speaking as a patriot - perhaps now you can see why.

    Hope you feel proud.
    Last edited by Beermat; 20th June 2017 at 15:56.
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  14. #14
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    Pipe down oh pious one. Some of us are older than 8 and actually remember (and may even have been badly affected by) what happened last time Labour was in charge. And don't come at me with the 'that was New labour' crap, they only called themselves 'New Labour' because the name of 'Old labour' stank so bad. Now New Labour's name stinks too, so they've brought Old Labour back out of the washing machine hoping that nobody will notice the residual poo stains that still remain after 38 years.

    The DUP's hand is limited. They know if they push too hard the Tories can call another election and run a proper campaign and leave them with no hand at all.
    Last edited by Ryan; 20th June 2017 at 15:44.

  15. #15
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    I am also old enough to remember when the UK became a more socially unjust, self-centred and money grubbing society (although the leader of the government of the time said that there was no such thing as society). A great deal of society's ills stem from that period in the early 80's. The selling off of social housing for personal and political gain was a disaster that has increased the cost of housing benefit through the vast rise in private rented accomodation costs. Who benefits? Landlords.

    We don't all see the Thatcher years as the beacon of light many on here seem to.

    And it seems that the Tories continue to see social housing as an anathema. There was an interesting interview with Nick Clegg where he stated that every time social housing came up when in coalition the response was "why would we want to encourage labour voters?". Government Spending on new social housing has dropped by 97% since 2010.
    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk...-a7799116.html

  16. #16
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    I am 47, Ryan. I don't know how old you are, but if you were paying attention and old enough you would remember the complete about-turn that tore the old Labour party apart around the redrafting of Clause IV.

    Mean nothing to you? No, it doesn't fit with your lecture on something you know next to nothing about. Go back to your graphs.

    When the fragmented party coalesced again around its leader Tony Blair it was called New Labour and pandered to a post-Thatcher mushroom generation. It was.. Oh never mind, you won't go away and look it up, you are too busy with your scatological references to some imagined history.

    No, I won't pipe down. Complain to the mods or the gods if you can't handle the truth of the situation. Attacking the labour party or those who vote for it - or telling them to be quiet about it - won't help you to change it.
    Last edited by Beermat; 20th June 2017 at 16:33.
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  17. #17
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    Or maybe the people who bought their council house benefited.

    Maybe if Labour had continued with the 3% surplus there was at the end of the last century, the country would be at 40% debt now instead of 90% and there'd be tens of billions extra to spend on public services, without even needing to borrow.

    No, you're right, there's no talking to those who ignore all facts.

  18. #18
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    Maybe if my uncle had boobs he'd be my aunt.
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  19. #19
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    So, actually you are not in favour of leaving the EU ? No surprises there.

  20. #20
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    Again you're wrong. He'd be the family hermaphrodite !

  21. #21
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    Re:#17
    Ryan, thanks for supporting my argument. I really appreciate it.
    The short term gain for those who bought their house at a massive discount and then sold at a profit benefitted them without doubt, but at the expense of the next generation who could have benefitted from access to reasonably priced, good quality social housing. That is what I meant about the 80's , it was a Me!Me!Me! culture that the tories supported with the stated intention of raising home ownership because they believed the recipients would vote tory. Gerrymandering at it's worst. Shirley Porter was prosecuted for it
    If they had allowed the local authorities to plough some of the sales proceeds into replacing the housing stock it wouldn't have been so bad, but for ideological reasons they made sure that was not possible.

    As far as home ownership is concerned, it is now at it's lowest level for 30 years so the policy clearly failed in the long term, yet private renting, with all the lack of regulation and rise in poor quality,unsafe accommodation is at an all-time high. Again I ask, whom is benefitting from this?
    Last edited by trekbuster; 20th June 2017 at 17:15.

  22. #22
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    Re:#19

    Not at any cost.

    The old cliché about polishing a Turd comes to mind

    I fully accept it will happen, but I'm yet to be convinced that it will be anything but to the long term detriment to the vast majority of the citizens of this country. I suggest you read or lsiten to Carney's comments today.
    Last edited by trekbuster; 20th June 2017 at 17:24.

  23. #23
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    Maybe if my uncle had boobs he'd be my aunt.
    I'd honestly be more surprised if your uncle didn't have boobs.

  24. #24
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    The next generation of the couple who bought their council house, would have inherited that house, instead of just living in a government owned property.

    As regards home ownership blame the mortgages offered under the watchful eye of the last Labour government. People lost their jobs but the prices never correct because landlords moved in during the fire sale. Limits on the amount of residential properties private entities can own might be a good idea and it might also stop money laundering that uses the London property market to wash money.

    The problems of leaving the EU were caused by joining it in the first place. We'd already have a good trading relationship with the EU and not be billions of pounds out of cash if we'd never joined in the first place. Certainly in 1992, we should have stayed out of it but at least we stayed out of the damn Euro.
    Last edited by Ryan; 20th June 2017 at 17:34.

  25. #25
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    Yet Ryan, it hasn't happened. Even children of the middle classes are struggling to afford properties with their legacies.
    Oh, and local authority social housing is not directly government owned. The obsession with home ownership is not healthy, and does not have any direct link with a country's prosperity.

    Switzerland has 44% home ownership, Germany just over 50%, Cuba has 90% and Romania 96%. Go figure

  26. #26
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    Which is the fault of what Labour did from 1997-2008.

    Okay, local authority owned, but I regard all public stuff as government owned one way or another.

    I believe it is healthy. A land-owning democracy is the heart of a proper democracy. Without land-ownership and the ability of regular citizens to buy homes, it's an aristocracy.

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    You regard public stuff as government owned? Then you have no concept of what public ownership means, just a Trumpy simpleton version of how a state works.

    Regular citizens are decreasingly able to buy homes. That's the whole point! For God's sake look around you.
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  28. #28
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    So Switzerland is 50% less democratic than Romania?

    you didn't follow what I said. I did not say that home ownership is unhealthy, I said the obsession with home ownership as the only apparent route to individual prosperity is unhealthy. It is exclusive rather than inclusive. You defeat your own argument, by your suggestion we are considerably less democratic that we were 20 years ago.

    If democracy was only provided by home ownership, you would be taking us back to the 18th century. What next, remove the right for women to own property when married?
    Last edited by trekbuster; 20th June 2017 at 18:54.

  29. #29
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    John, you got me again. I'll introduce you to Lesley if we ever meet.

  30. #30
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    You regard public stuff as government owned? Then you have no concept of what public ownership means, just a Trumpy simpleton version of how a state works.

    Regular citizens are decreasingly able to buy homes. That's the whole point! For God's sake look around you.
    Taxpayer, government, public.

    Who's fault is that? Labour's again.

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