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Thread: Airbus: European Future Fighter Program

  1. #181
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    Like Bud says.
    For example: an American company makes a product with 3 components. I'll call them A, B and C. They need to be assembled to make the product. Let's say each component costs $30 and assembly to make the product costs $10. Cost to manufacture the product is $100. Let's say the manufacturer sells the product for $150. Profit = $50.
    So in the case components are sourced overseas, it's not a big deal to Boeing shareholders indeed, but going with your example: US workers get 10$ worth of manufacturing. Shareholders (Carlyle?) get 50$ for sitting on their a$$e$, while China/Japan/Taiwan or whomever will get 90% worth of work. Commercial balance for the US : $-90. What's not to like for the US taxpayer/Citizen/patriot/regular person that hasn't been brainwashed by the media/school-system yet?

    Not to mention the day your supplier decides he won't sell you your stuff because he finally realized the treasure bonds he owns from you are worthless, you will be unable to replace the parts he made for you easily.

    If you can buy A for $20 delivered to your US assembly plant from a different supplier (inside or outside the US), cost to manufacture the product drops from $100 to 90$. Let's say the manufacturer sells the product for $150. Profit = $60.
    Thanks for the lesson in economics.

  2. #182
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    So in the case components are sourced overseas, it's not a big deal to Boeing shareholders indeed, but going with your example: US workers get 10$ worth of manufacturing. Shareholders (Carlyle?) get 50$ for sitting on their a$$e$, while China/Japan/Taiwan or whomever will get 90% worth of work. Commercial balance for the US : $-90. What's not to like for the US taxpayer/Citizen/patriot/regular person that hasn't been brainwashed by the media/school-system yet?

    Not to mention the day your supplier decides he won't sell you your stuff because he finally realized the treasure bonds he owns from you are worthless, you will be unable to replace the parts he made for you easily.
    Seek an econ101 course, seriously.

  3. #183
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    What about talking about theorethical Filosophy?
    Or gardening?
    Because it'sthe only way to derail this thread any further.

    I would say that one thing is the civilian market, where you can make such kind of savings considerations, another one is the military one, above all when it refers to strategical items like a frontline fighter.

  4. #184
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    It looks like we have a political go

    PARIS — France and Germany have agreed to develop a European fighter jet to replace their existing fleets, part of a raft of measures to tighten defense and security cooperation, according to a document issued after a Franco-German cabinet meeting in Paris on Thursday.

    The two countries are to come up with a roadmap for developing the new aircraft by mid 2018, the document said.

    The two governments also agreed to set up a cooperation framework for the next model of the Tiger attack helicopter and for tactical air-to-ground missiles.
    https://www.nytimes.com/reuters/2017...?smid=tw-share

  5. #185
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    Well that is interesting.

    I can't see the UK joining them but I can see FCAS feeding into this programme, so you never know.

    How will the rest of Europe go though? After all is nEUROn is a model of cooperation, this programme is set to be a monster.

  6. #186
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    And there goes my thread.

  7. #187
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  8. #188
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    angela snaps her fingers:

    "emanuel, here!"

    *he comes fast*

    "sign here"

    *signs rapidly*

    "we have a german-french cooperation for the new fighter"

    *applause*


    we'll see where it goes next, after 2022

  9. #189
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    I can't see the UK joining them but I can see FCAS feeding into this programme, so you never know.
    I can see Great Britain joining with ease, Typhoon willl need a replacement.

    How will the rest of Europe go though?
    Spain will join, its "EADS" industrial base will see to that, the interesting ones will be Sweden and Italy.

    I am expecting two systems, a manned and an unmanned, between Germany and France the budget is there for such an aproach. The UCAV (something directly coming directly out of FCAS) being the first to be developed.

    Cheers
    Last edited by Sintra; 13th July 2017 at 16:41.

  10. #190
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    It can't be out of FCAS. That one is designed for a maximum level of discretion not air superiority. The necessity of being on par with the PakFa and a future JXX cancel de facto this rather bad idea.
    On the other side, commonality b/w the some part of the avionics is straightforward (but a different radar).
    This is why there is and there has always been room for 2 programs.

  11. #191
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    The original communique

    La France et l’Allemagne conviennent de développer un système de combat aérien européen, sous
    la direction des deux pays, pour remplacer leurs flottes actuelles d’avions de combat sur le long
    terme. Les deux partenaires souhaitent mettre au point une feuille de route conjointe d’ici à mi2018.

    Dassault was as surprised as we are. No panic. First, intergov talks for calendar, and german elections. Then program definition by produrement agencies. Then feasability studies... etc.

  12. #192
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    Dassault was not aware of this? Interesting...

    It will be interesting to see how this will move forward.

    I really wonder what the UK and Sweden will do... also there is a big question mark if this "political dream" of German and French politicians can become true. Keep in mind that they did try with Eurofighter to include France and we all saw how that went...

    I am thinking that the French industry must be somewhat sceptical to this, looking at the history -- the Typhoon is extremely expensive (in particular operating costs) and with a lot of problems and issues. Whereas the Rafale from a technical POV is an astonishing success, the only thing holding it back has been investments from the French politicians, and export sales. Given all of this, if I were French I would be somewhat sceptical to enter a collaboration with the Germans.

    OTOH what is the alternative?

    Technically, I am thinking that the best for Europe would be for Saab and Dassault to team up (assuming that the target is to create a European "winning team"), since both have proved that they can produce world-class products at a shoestring budget. However Sweden is too small and will not be able to purchase a significant number of new a/c, and the timing of Gripen E makes it even worse.

    As I have said before: Several European countries should put together requirements and invite all European companies to bid; then the best bid will win, be it Airbus, Dassault, or Saab... not going to happen of course.

  13. #193
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    It appears as though the new French President is willing to let Dassault go away. First as a prime and eventually all together. It will be a interesting negotiation to watch unfold. The French President seem consumed with a arrogance that doesn't match the French situation at all.
    Last edited by Siddar; 13th July 2017 at 19:18.

  14. #194
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    I don't doubt that FCAS in the Franco-British sense is a UCAV, with systems that could be of use to a fighter in part (that was my point).

    I just think the UK Typhoon replacement is not this fighter. This feels like it will need to do Air to ground as much as anything else -for two countries that don't operate the F35 in that role.

  15. #195
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    2035 (forecast for entry date...) leaves plenty of room for the F35 in Germany.

    Still, It's a good news for the Franco-German industry which is not limited to Dassault only

    Another big news in France is the 800+M euros cut in mil budget centered around procurement. I wonder if in final the mighty 2k will not earn a second descent* life after all.

    *past the humiliating minimal upgrade

  16. #196
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sintra View Post
    I can see Great Britain joining with ease, Typhoon willl need a replacement.



    Spain will join, its "EADS" industrial base will see to that, the interesting ones will be Sweden and Italy.

    I am expecting two systems, a manned and an unmanned, between Germany and France the budget is there for such an aproach. The UCAV (something directly coming directly out of FCAS) being the first to be developed.

    Cheers
    Turkey-Japan-UK may all join together to develop a fighter of its own

  17. #197
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    I don't know, but I would suggest that this announcement has taken the majority of the Rafale contributors by surprise. With perhaps one exception, they have all stated with absolute certainty (in the last few pages of the thread), that it is far too early to consider replacing Rafale.

    Well you government is planning on replacing Rafale with the help of the rest of Europe, so I wonder what you make of it?

  18. #198
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    I highly doubt anything will come out of this fighter project. EU simply can't develop military product on 5G scale. and in less than 5 years very different kind of liabilities are coming.

  19. #199
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    I don't doubt that FCAS in the Franco-British sense is a UCAV, with systems that could be of use to a fighter in part (that was my point).

    I just think the UK Typhoon replacement is not this fighter. This feels like it will need to do Air to ground as much as anything else -for two countries that don't operate the F35 in that role.
    I agree. Many tech nologu bicks to be used in the program.

    I phoned yesterday afternoon at Dassault Dircom. They were not aware (although apprehensive). What they are afraid from is that Germany may inject more money and promise more orders) than France and require leadership on the program (of course he did not say it exactly that way). Apparently they are not very happy that Germany imposed a dual engine for Eurodrone to comply with their laws and regulations.

    Imho, few things are important to consider.

    - Its been many times that Germany asked to join FCAS program

    - The document states "long term" procurement


    About the FCAS part, FCAS being a system of systems and not only the FCAS DP drone a manned fighter could complement it instead of challenge it.

    About long term, it would be very interesting to consider the German Tornado retirement calendar. A new fighter would need maybe 20 years to be operational. I doubt that (and would be very interested in informations, @scorpion82 ?) that German Tornados can manage to last till 2035. If so they may need a replacement in the meanwhile. Purchasing F-35 would certainly not be well accepted on this siode of the Rhine.

    The decision is purely politic. There is, according to every expert here, no need for a Rafale replacement before 2050. Ppl are afraid that Rafale program may be sacrified to Europe of Defense without sufficient counterparts from Germany.

    We well know much more when the "calendar" promised for mid 2018 will be released.

    Just my few cents.

  20. #200
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    It isn't just to replace Rafale or EF. Its more like Supplement. Much later, yes replace.

    Quite Sad to see the Nationalistic squander resurface in the event of such new program.
    Last edited by haavarla; 14th July 2017 at 13:48.
    Thanks

  21. #201
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    There is, according to every expert here, no need for a Rafale replacement before 2050.
    Incorrigible
    On one side of the pond, we see PCA etc. Here our "experts" know better.

  22. #202
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    So what is the overall requirements?
    Sound to me it will be a larger two engine platform.
    Without the constraints of any Navy requirements(see F-35).
    It sounds Intersting enough!
    Thanks

  23. #203
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    1. German AF:
    * 85 Tornado --> Retirement: around 2030.
    * 143 Eurofighter --> Retirement: post-2040.

    2. Spanish AF and Navy:
    * 71 EF-18A --> Retirement: around 2025 ~ 2030.
    * 13 AV-8B --> Retirement: around 2025 ~ 2030.
    * 73 Eurofighter --> Retirement: post-2040.


    3. Royal AF:
    * 30 EF-2000 Tranche 1 --> Retirement: around 2030
    * 107 EF-2000 Tranche 2&3 --> Retirement: post-2040.


    4. French AF and Navy:
    * 125 Mirage 2000 series --> Retirement: 2018 ~ 2030, successor: Rafale F3, F3-O4T, and F4.
    * 61 early productional Rafale B/C/M --> Retirement: 2030 ~ 2040.
    * 164 late productional Rafale B/C/M --> Retirement: 2040 ~ 2060.

    5. ItAF"
    * 68 EF-2000 Tranche 2&3 --> Retirement: post-2040.

  24. #204
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    GAF + FAF: 307 ~ 368 EF-2000 and Rafale need to be replaced at the time of 2040 ~ 2060.

    GAF + FAF + SpAF: 380 ~ 441 EF-2000 and Rafale need to be replaced at the time of 2040 ~ 2060.

    GAF + FAF + SpAF + ItAF: 448 ~ 509 EF-2000 and Rafale need to be replaced at the time of 2040 ~ 2060.

    GAF + FAF + SpAF + ItAF + SwAF: 508 ~ 579 EF-2000, Rafale, and Gripen need to be replaced at the time of 2040 ~ 2060.

    GAF + FAF + SpAF + ItAF + SwAF + RAF: 615 ~ 686 EF-2000, Rafale, and Gripen need to be replaced at the time of 2040 ~ 2060.

  25. #205
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    Quote Originally Posted by toan View Post
    GAF + FAF: 307 ~ 368 EF-2000 and Rafale need to be replaced at the time of 2040 ~ 2060.

    GAF + FAF + SpAF: 380 ~ 441 EF-2000 and Rafale need to be replaced at the time of 2040 ~ 2060.

    GAF + FAF + SpAF + ItAF: 448 ~ 509 EF-2000 and Rafale need to be replaced at the time of 2040 ~ 2060.

    GAF + FAF + SpAF + ItAF + SwAF: 508 ~ 579 EF-2000, Rafale, and Gripen need to be replaced at the time of 2040 ~ 2060.

    GAF + FAF + SpAF + ItAF + SwAF + RAF: 615 ~ 686 EF-2000, Rafale, and Gripen need to be replaced at the time of 2040 ~ 2060.
    So we can assume that Europe will have one type of multi-role fighter across the board post 2040. Seamless interpolarity and cheap maintenance costs

  26. #206
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    Or we can assume that the future european fighter program will be hopeless if the countries like UK, Italy, and Spain etc. finally decide their future fighters shall be " Buy American only".......

  27. #207
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    Did i say they "knew" better? I said they were unanimous here.
    But you wouldn't miss an occasion to troll would you? Incorrigible

  28. #208
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    Turkey-Japan-UK may all join together to develop a fighter of its own
    I will be nothing short of amazed if that happens. And at least on paper, the Japanese designs seem to be for something quite big.

  29. #209
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    The decision is purely politic. There is, according to every expert here, no need for a Rafale replacement before 2050
    Sweet Jesus!

  30. #210
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    I dont understand the idea that Rafale is good for 50 years of operation. if nothing els, that will kill the french aerospace sector.

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