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Thread: Airbus: European Future Fighter Program

  1. #391
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    Ipse dixit.
    Seriously all, they arein a very preliminar fase, just making an agreement to begin a project.
    We have neither a basic idea about what they are trying to get, if it will have one or two engines, if it will be manned or unmanned, if it would be somewhat for A2A or A2G, what its own weight will be, also the real numbers of partecipants is uncertain as long as also Leonardo has expressed an interest in it: trying now to make a comparison with just little less nebulous American or UK/TR projects is just some sort of chauvinistic daydreaming.

  2. #392
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    well, one thing seems to be more or less certain: they plan for something that would replace the Typhoon and Rafale.. so, it should be A2G and A2A or they'll have to buy something else... not exactly in line with the french policy of reducing the costs by having a single aircraft fleet

  3. #393
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    There is room for an F35 buy, at least in Germany. Then we have the UCAV. Let's see what this would left in A2G before 2035.

  4. #394
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    I would be very surprised by such a buy, Germany is just the one pushing the most for a new european fighter and by political stance is not so interested in a specialized A2G plane.
    Keeping some Tornado for a decade and acquiring the UCAV would do the trick for them i.e. covering those nich missions that even a Aesa ecquipped Typhoon couldn't do (and for the main one of them i.e. SEAD, neither the F-35 afn).
    That's is also my main contrariety about an involvement of Leonardo in the project: each country has different perspectives and doctrine there putting them all together would mean o repeat the situation that led to the Eurofighter/Rafale split.

  5. #395
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marcellogo
    I would be very surprised by such a buy, Germany is just the one pushing the most for a new european fighter and by political stance is not so interested in a specialized A2G plane.
    I suppose its fortunate then that the aircraft the Luftwaffe is advocating for, is a multi-role fighter and not a 'specialized A2G plane".
    Last edited by Vnomad; 14th August 2017 at 01:22.

  6. #396
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    A combat aircraft is just as good as its weapons systems and on-board sensors.

    These 2 things will determine which platform will have a competitive edge. Low observability is not the sole determinant. Especially if you have a detection and lock-on range far beyond other aircraft/air defence systems. Equally, the radar system is also not the sole determinant if and when you have AWACS and true Network Centricity (up to and including A2A missile network centricity). The whole package needs to be assessed and from the viewpoint of the intended use for the platform.

    From what I have seen thus far: the new American programs are focussing on a new naval variant combat aircraft. The Europeans on a new future multi-role aircraft and the Anglo-Turkish program aiming for an Air Superiority Fighter to compliment the F-35. I have no doubt that each respective program will address their countries needs. The reality is that the Europeans, Americans and Turks all have some level of access to the technology suppliers of these types of projects. It ultimately thus boils down to a good project model, management and budget.

    In terms of timetable- the Anglo-Turkish program is far ahead as it already has a $30 billion budget, project & R&D facility buildings, export approvals etc. The conceptual design phase is also complete and many sub-systems are also nearing full-volume production (excluding the engine).

  7. #397
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    From what I have seen thus far: the new American programs are focussing on a new naval variant combat aircraft.
    This is not true. There are two distinct efforts currently underway that are focused on USAF Penetrating Counter Air, and the Navy Multi-Role F-18E/F and EA-18G replacement. Out of these two, the former is significantly better funded over the FYDP even if one discounts the multi billion dollar AETD and AETP propulsion awards which although come out of the USAF budget, apply to the navy needs as well.

    http://forum.keypublishing.com/showt...11#post2400911
    Last edited by bring_it_on; 13th August 2017 at 23:34.
    Old radar types never die; they just phased array

  8. #398
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    I don't know whether Europe is interested in a dedicated SEAD combat aircraft because I do recall Airbus and Roketsan (a Turkish Company) working on a European Transport Aircraft type gunship conversion for SEAD purposes. Under the new concept the transport aircraft would be configured to launch large numbers of SOM Stand-off cruise missiles and other Roketsan missiles from Stand-off distances against Ground Air-defence targets. See http://www.defensenews.com/digital-s...ombs-to-c-295/

    Although I must say I am skeptical as to whether this would entirely diminish the need for SEAD combat aircraft.

  9. #399
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    Competitive with block 3 F...

  10. #400
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    the Franco-German partnership is more likely to produce an aircraft that is competitive with the F-35 block 3F
    lol.. By the time they get their first plane IOC, the F-35 will be Block 6 or 7.

    Being competitive with the Block3F in the 2030's is like being competitive with an F-16A Block 10 in the late 1990's.
    Last edited by SpudmanWP; 14th August 2017 at 14:56.
    "The early bird gets the worm but the second mouse gets the cheese."

  11. #401
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    updating F16A electronics make it similar to F16C. I don't see F35 top speed, payload, altitude , stealth or even range changing in 2030. you can see F22 it remain static at early 2000 level

  12. #402
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    A Block5 F-35 is just a Block3F with "updated electronics". He made the comparison to a baseline, Block 3F F-35, not an updated Block 5+.

    There is already a multi-phase plan in the works to improve the F-35's range & performance with upgrades to the F135, not to mention a newer "advanced" engine that could easily be done long before a new European fighter could go IOC. On the payload side of things, 6 internal AMRAAM is in the works and so are new missiles (SACM, CUDA, etc). On the stealth side of things, better coatings & active (ie not radar based) jammers are in the works.

    The key difference between the F-22 and F-35 in terms of future upgrades is money, pure and simple. There is simply more of an incentive to do F-35 upgrades since there is a better ROE.
    "The early bird gets the worm but the second mouse gets the cheese."

  13. #403
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    so F-22 run out of money and F-35 with its 50% imported components and too much labor in manufacturing will not run out. i highly doubt anything is going to change. atmost some new light weight AAM that it can carry more. it does not even have twin seat version for command and control or take rest for long flights.

  14. #404
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    It does not need a 2nd seat for C&C due to advances in datalinks & it's avionics.
    "The early bird gets the worm but the second mouse gets the cheese."

  15. #405
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    Don't engage the troll Spud. You know better. It just provides him validation for his trolling.

  16. #406
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    Sorry, I've been a little distracted the last couple of weeks...
    Car accident (totaled) due to a leg infection going septic, week in the hospital, buy a new car, schedule an amputation below the knee so that I can never have the issue again.. You know, typical krap
    "The early bird gets the worm but the second mouse gets the cheese."

  17. #407
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    Quote Originally Posted by SpudmanWP View Post
    It does not need a 2nd seat for C&C due to advances in datalinks & it's avionics.
    so pilot can fly and concentrate on computer screens for 4 to 6 hours. how much strain this putting?. Pilot salaries will reach multi million for such work and alot down time. with enhcement in radar and electronic warfare bigger size aircraft with twin seat needed for absorb that data and utliize it for whole group information . And that group can include guiding SAMs, billistic and cruise missiles and real time survellence from even tactical size UAVs that will be far more compact and stealthy in less than 10 years

  18. #408
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    Sorry, I've been a little distracted the last couple of weeks...
    Car accident (totaled) due to a leg infection going septic, week in the hospital, buy a new car, schedule an amputation below the knee so that I can never have the issue again.. You know, typical krap
    Bloody hell! That's awful! You have my sympathy.
    Juris praecepta sunt haec: honeste vivere, alterum non laedere, suum cuique tribuere.
    Justinian

  19. #409
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    Stay strong spud!!
    Old radar types never die; they just phased array

  20. #410
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    I am just very thankful that I did not hit anyone else which in and of itself is a miracle given that it was 3 pm on a Monday afternoon on a Southern California freeway.
    "The early bird gets the worm but the second mouse gets the cheese."

  21. #411
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    Oh, dear
    I could just imagine the distress of all this, stay strong Spud!

  22. #412
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    Quote Originally Posted by SpudmanWP
    Sorry, I've been a little distracted the last couple of weeks...
    Car accident (totaled) due to a leg infection going septic, week in the hospital, buy a new car, schedule an amputation below the knee so that I can never have the issue again.. You know, typical krap
    Gosh. Sounds awful. Hope you get better soon.

  23. #413
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    GL spud.

  24. #414
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    It does not need a 2nd seat for C&C due to advances in datalinks & it's avionics.
    Taht is an interesting point to discuss. datalinks also bring a huge number of information to be processed. Computers are certainly faster to process most of them, but some decisions like relevance of threats etc. Could still need a human operation after computer's advice. Workload certainly disminished, but enough?

  25. #415
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    It is a decision point that depends upon the operator. As far as the USAF is concerned the command and control can come through much larger platforms that can act as quarterbacks and command and control even at the FEBA. Similarly, the idea with Loyal Wingman and similar programs is to think much beyond 1 or 2 person mission management where a fighter with 1 or 2 person crew commands 3 or more companion aircraft. The idea is to automate, and make decision making, target planning and execution, autonomous especially when dealing with or when flying alongside drone swarms.
    Old radar types never die; they just phased array

  26. #416
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    SpudmanWP

    Sorry, I've been a little distracted the last couple of weeks...
    Car accident (totaled) due to a leg infection going septic, week in the hospital, buy a new car, schedule an amputation below the knee so that I can never have the issue again.. You know, typical krap

    Sorry to read that Spud..

    I'm still stuck at home almost 18 months after my truck crash (also was very lucky not to hurt or kill anyone)... So that news touches me even more than before... I'd just say stay strong and get well (the best possible way) soon...

  27. #417
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    Quote Originally Posted by SpudmanWP
    I am just very thankful that I did not hit anyone else which in and of itself is a miracle given that it was 3 pm on a Monday afternoon on a Southern California freeway.
    Very sorry to hear that, mate.. I've had two crashes in the last year, totaled a Honda and then a brand new Audi few months after that.. In the first crash, a Golf got into my way and the girl on the passenger seat was badly bruised, yet, thanks God, we all have survived relatively intact..

    How could your leg infection have gone so bad, if I may ask? What happened?
    Stay strong and try to take it easy, if possible.. today's prosthetics can do miracles, you'll do okay

  28. #418
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    So sorry to hear that Spud, best of wishes for what lays ahead.

    Nic

  29. #419
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    I'm glad you still have the fortitude to participate in the forum, Spudman.
    I have always respected your posts.

    I don't know how I'd handle the 'krap' you've gone through.
    Hang in there and be strong.

  30. #420
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    Long story short....
    1991 -- Motorcycle accident with multiple compound fracture. 3 month in the hosp to get MRSA under control & start to rebuild after losing 8 inches of the tibia to the MRSA. Lost a lot of soft tissue including multiple muscles, veins & arteries in the left shin area.
    1991 > 1993 -- I have had 28 surgeries involved in the MRSA infection, ortho reconstruction, muscle replacement, and skin graphs. Chronic bad blood flow in left shin due to the missing veins and arteries.
    2001 -- At my daughter's 1st birthday party I had a pain in my left knee, the dr said possible bone chip and wraps the leg in an ace bandage. 4 days later (and in a lot of pain) I go back to the Dr to remove the ace and the leg is black & purple from the knee down. An aggressive cellulitis infection had taken hold. Turns out the pain was not a boan chip but the lympth node "going off".
    2001 > today -- Starting in 2001 with 1 infection and growing in frequency (now at 3-4 per year), I keep getting these cellulitis infections. I am very good at detecting the early signs (ie the pain the in the lymph node) so I can start antibiotics before my leg even gets a little red. While it has been getting more frequent, they are very manageable and present nothing worse than a headache and some chills.

    However, July the 31st was a different story. I was at work and got the now classic "pain the lymph node". I told my boss (who is used to it by now and told me to go home) and started to drive home. After about 30 minutes I cannot remember anything till I "came around" in the ER. I never lost consciousness but was confused & incoherent for a couple of hours. The doctors told me that mild stomach bug that I had been dealing with for a week or so had weakend my imune system enough to allow the cellulitus to be very aggressive, turn septic, and basically hit me so hard I never saw it coming.

    I've accepted for years that eventually I would have to have the leg amputated as at some point later in life I would no longer be able to fight the infections. However, this is a whole new problem, that being of safety and the possibility that I can cause a serious accident without seeing it coming. This is why I have decided to have the left shin amputated ASAP. I have an appt tommarow to have the leg scanned for blood flow to see if any part of the shin can be saved or if everything below the knee has to go.

    Sorry, I did not mean to hijack the thread with my problems.
    "The early bird gets the worm but the second mouse gets the cheese."

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