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Thread: British and Japan: new stealth fighter?

  1. #1
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    British and Japan: new stealth fighter?

    lots of news coming out in this front, like this very recent article a few weeks ago with pacts made

    http://thediplomat.com/2017/03/japan...h-fighter-jet/


    interesting they're going around with Turkey and now Japan,
    although Japan is probably a more realistic partner given that they've already developed engine and aesa technologies, as well as a flying demonstrater


  2. #2
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    As much as I am a fan of this idea, there is no news though is there? this is even more remote than your favourite Turkish fighter project.

    Certainly no need for its own thread, but you already know that.
    Last edited by mrmalaya; 15th May 2017 at 16:44.

  3. #3
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    The Japanse tech demonstrator is the most boring and dull stereotypical 5th gen design out there.

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    fortunately, the production version will look better



    at least 24 DMU will look nicer
    23 DMU looks like your f-22 clone everoyne is following but Russia



    there was a 25 DMu but it seems to be eliminated


  5. #5
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    an update, seems like they've moved on to 26dmu already and are doing the wind model testing






  6. #6
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    The TE of the wings and tail plane don't seem parallel.

  7. #7
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    The tail plane TEs are parallel to the opposite side wing & tail plane LE angle, which is also valid edge alignment.

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    But is the wing LE relevant to radiation coming from the rear?

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    Those appear to be Meteors in there.


  10. #10
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    Yes and yes!

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    Could you explain why the wing LE is important to rear RCS. Creeping waves?

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    Edge diffraction if memory serves - but you're better off researching literature on the detailed explanation, I'm certainly not an RF expert.

  13. #13
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    The Japanese studies do allow for a big weapons bay, and a very deep fuselage. They will need to carry lots of weapons, and it is indeed interesting to see which ones they are building them around.

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    perhaps some kind of Ashm?

    the F-2s were designed around the idea of carrying 4.

  15. #15
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    Well to answer your question Y-20 Bacon, I think the UK is setting itself up to be able to produce the fighter it needs, when it needs it. The Turkish fighter is clearly an industrial sustainment project and we wait to see if there is more to it than that.

    I personally think the UK and Japan would have more in common when it comes to a new fighter requirement. After all the RAF already operates a "poor mans F22" (as Bayar describes the TFX), and I'm not sure that the Turkish fighter can be aimed at third world airfares and the RAF.

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    maybe its not just a commonality in fighters but broader?
    I seem to recall very recently the Japanese were pushing their P-1 asw plane and C-2 to the UK (blasphemous yes, but it is very unfortunate UK retired the nimrods etc

    and who knows, maybe those really are meteor missiles in the DMU 26 model. this UK-JP collab might be deeper than we know it

  17. #17
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    Well we know they are collaborating on advanced seeker technology for the Meteor, so its clear Japan wants those in its fighter.

    There is crossover certainly.

  18. #18
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    It only understandable that every new plane to be designed would be a stealth one and that it would try to address the perceived shortcomings of actual designs, more specifically the proportion between the internally carried weapons and the total possible payload.
    So they would try to get 4 full proportion weapon bays, centered on A2A weapons, and more specifically a new ramjet powered missile with two lateral intakes.
    About the three preliminary designs, 23 is based on the F-35, 24 look likea XF-23/PAK-FA mix, and the 25/26 on J-20 without canards.
    So I would guess it would be an air superiority fighter with a secondary maritime strike capability, about all of the weapons would be carried inside the weapons bays.
    23 seems me hopeless, so I'll expect a match between the other two models

  19. #19
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    easthetics wise, dmu26 is again similar-ish to dmu23. At least it has the x wing tails, though, making it a bit different than most 5th gen designs.

    And those are going to be some huge weapon bays if they really plan to cram in 6 aam4 in there. Mind you, aam4 is larger than an amraam, with 10% bigger diameter and 80% larger wingspan. That would also indicate a very large plane, definitely not any smaller than an F-22. Possibly with a shorter reach as well, as bigger weapon bays within the same fuselage volume would indicate less available space for internal fuel.

    So what is more likely? That japanese fighter will be:
    A) Even larger than F22 so both missile count and fuel can fit
    B) Plane will not be larger than F22 but will carry 4 BVR missiles
    C) something in between, with a redesigned AAM4 missile of smaller wingspan.
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  20. #20
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    If we assume that engines are going to get more fuel efficient, then the fuel fraction may be less of an issue. That said, the next generation of fighter engines appears to be big and able to produce a wide range of power for a variety of uses. The engine being produced for a large UCAV like FCAS is the size of the M88.

    The development of smaller more compact carriage weapons triggered by the F35 weapon bay must have some impact on large A2A missiles.

    We are in danger of covering similar ground both here, the TFX, F35 and 6th gen thread aren't we?

  21. #21
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    not sure if those are AAM-4s, look more like meteors to me



    a bit more about the bay



    supposedly they are aiming to fit an xasm-3 in there. but good luck with that, I'm not sure if that'd even fit the TU-160 bay

    a bit more about the new engine



    layout of 26dmu




    so, anyone want to guess who will finish their 5th gen first? The koreans, indians, turks, or japancheese?

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Y-20 Bacon
    maybe its not just a commonality in fighters but broader?
    I seem to recall very recently the Japanese were pushing their P-1 asw plane and C-2 to the UK (blasphemous yes, but it is very unfortunate UK retired the nimrods etc

    and who knows, maybe those really are meteor missiles in the DMU 26 model. this UK-JP collab might be deeper than we know it
    Collaboration on an AESA version of Meteor for F-35 between UK and Japan is a known.

    http://aviationweek.com/awin-only/ja...eteor-guidance

    supposedly they are aiming to fit an xasm-3 in there. but good luck with that, I'm not sure if that'd even fit the TU-160 bay
    Well XASM-3 does look a lot like a Meteor except bigger but unless that scale model is scaled down an awful lot, I doubt they are XASM-3s in there. Fitting it in a Tu-160, or even 12, should be easy though, at least length-wise.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XASM-3

    Note: Interesting use of LERX in above image.
    Last edited by Ryan; 17th May 2017 at 14:21.

  23. #23
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    Korea seems most serious about it. I'd say they will be first, though their plane won't really have all the features of a 5th gen plane.
    Turks might follow, but again, it won't be a pure 5th gen plane.
    Japanese will probably make a proper 5th gen plane but they will take their time and I don't expect to see entry into service before 2030.
    Indian AMCA... sometime in later half of 2030s if not later.
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  24. #24
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    About the three preliminary designs, 23 is based on the F-35, 24 look likea XF-23/PAK-FA mix, and the 25/26 on J-20 without canards.
    So I would guess it would be an air superiority fighter with a secondary maritime strike capability, about all of the weapons would be carried inside the weapons bays.
    23 seems me hopeless, so I'll expect a match between the other two models
    Those designs are not competing ones.
    "DMU" stands for "Digital Mock Up", the numbers are a direct correspondent to a regnal year of Emperor Akihito, that means that DMU23, was the consolidated design for 2011, DMU24, the consolidated design for 2012, and so on.

    Cheers

  25. #25
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    supposedly there is a 27DMU, but I couldn't find any concrete pictures.
    26DMU information only appeared last year in 2016
    FYI, it is year 29 in Japan.

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    ^DMU 24. That's more like it.. PakFa/YF 23 sexy

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    Seems to be an interesting slide on the EW suite here but I can't read it sadly.


  28. #28
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    ^ same here.
    I prefer the pancake style of 5th gen jets (yf-23, pakfa, 24dmu).

    I would like to know why they decided against this route, and why more designs more or less use the LockMart template.
    i'm guessing less risk

  29. #29
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    @mrmalaya
    Merge all the new 5 gen projects made not by the usual great ones in just a thread?

  30. #30
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    @Sintra
    Paint me quite skeptic there.
    If in just three years they have changed so radically idea that means that they are gooses lost in the fog.
    So, i'm more inclined to believe that those are just proof of concepts

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