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Thread: WWII flights To Lisbon

  1. #211
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    The Aero Portuguesa Lodestar is CS-ADD. the Spanish Douglas is a DC-2. I think the unmarked C-47 was the first impounded by the Portuguese. The photo came from the air museum at Alverca about 10 years ago, though it had been published before and was on Key in 2011 http://forum.keypublishing.com/showt...gs-in-Portugal which has a link to a blog about forced landings in Portugal http://landinportugal.blogspot.co.uk/
    Last edited by longshot; 17th June 2017 at 15:40.

  2. #212
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    Thanks, once again, longshot. I should have spotted it was a DC-2. More than that, I knew that EC-AAB was a DC-2 and here's another of those weirdly manipulated images that I think makes the registration pretty clear - as these things go, anyhow:
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  3. #213
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    And here's a photo of EC-AAB on another occasion and from a very different angle.
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  4. #214
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    And I knew that CS-ADD was an Aero Portuguesa Lodestar but the manipulated image did make it look very like an "S" on the end of the registration, not a "D" - see here:
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    Last edited by ianwoodward9; 17th June 2017 at 18:37.

  5. #215
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    And, for good measure, here is CS-ADD in a photo that shows the same aircraft as in Post # 213 but taken from the opposite direction:
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  6. #216
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    The DC-3 between the Lodestar and the DC-2 in Posts # 213 and 215 is D-AAIF, formerly owned by the Czech airline CLS.

  7. #217
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    There was discussion earlier in this thread about the seating arrangement in a KLM DC-3. This image comes, as I recall, from a pre-WWII KLM timetable and certainly looks like it was taken inside a DC-3. Our Dutch contributors will probably correct me but it came with a caption that went something like, "An empty seat awaits you" or "Ready for you, a vacant seat". As I understand it, the KLM interiors stayed more or less intact for the Lisbon run.
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  8. #218
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    A slight change of topic. Earlier in the thread, there was a nice photo of a P-38 impounded by the Portuguese and one of the photos taken at Portela Airport showed a couple of Portuguese Liberators in the background and maybe a couple of Hudsons, too. I think one of the earlier news articles mentioned seeing Blenheims at Portela - were they impounded, I wonder? I've also read about 11 Airacobras ending up there on one day (and a twelfth at another airfield, I seem to recall). Someone must have compiled a list of aircraft that fell into Portuguese hands this way. Here's another - a Sunderland [sorry about the quality but you tend to get this with old news reports]:
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  9. #219
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    Sunderland probably P9623, so info here
    http://www.rafcommands.com/forum/sho...gal-14-02-1941

    more info on aircraft landing/crashing in Portugal during WW2 1939-42
    http://www.warrelics.eu/forum/aviati...rtugal-117514/
    http://www.warrelics.eu/forum/aviati...942-a-117505/?

  10. #220
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    The Sunderland must be P9623, as you say, farnboroughrob. The date in the link you posted (14 February 1941) fits the date in the news clipping [February 1941] and the place likewise. The location in the link [Tróia] is on the opposite bank of the river from that in the news clipping [Septúbal]. Pretty conclusive, I think. Thanks for your contribution.

  11. #221
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    Portela Airport, Lisbon, was 'symbolically' opened on 15 October 1942 but the buildings were not yet finished. This photograph, published in December 1942, shows the terminal building with scaffolding around the control tower (but see the next post):
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    Last edited by ianwoodward9; 19th June 2017 at 22:46.

  12. #222
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    Eleven months later, this photograph showed the work completed on the control tower. However, look at the people around the building - exactly the same people in exactly the same positions. This is the same photograph as published the previous year, only doctored!!! A small sign on a trestle has been removed and there may be other slight changes, too.
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    Last edited by ianwoodward9; 19th June 2017 at 22:48.

  13. #223
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    In the third of the three links posted by farnboroughrob .......

    http://www.warrelics.eu/forum/aviati...942-a-117505/?

    ...... there's a Puss Moth!!! (see 24 June 1942 in the list).

    This is not in the same 'league' as the other aircraft listed. Does anyone know the story behind this Puss Moth crash in Portugal in WWII?

  14. #224
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    That DH-80 is interesting. Looking at Air Britain's DH-80 file there are not many candidates even of Portuguese registration
    cN 2040 ex G-ABCX Regd in Portuguese Angola as CR-HAA .38 to Dr AntonioVideira; named “Talvez”. [Also reported as owned .38 by Adelino Amaral]. Regd CR-LAH. Crashed.
    2235 To Club Aereo de Quelimane, Mozambique with CofA 3483 issued 2.6.32 (but no such aero club at time – probably to local resident). Regd CR-MAE .32.

    Of course these lists could include Portuguese overseas colonies? There were several DH80's involved in the Spanish Civil war but look to be out of use by 1940. Of course it could also be a wrong id?

  15. #225
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    I posed the question simply because the Puss Moth so stood out in that list of belligerent warplanes. Maybe it was indeed just a local civilian aircraft that happened to crash in the country during the time-frame specified, as you suggest. And an incorrect identification is just as likely, as you also suggest. On the other hand, maybe there was something more intriguing behind its inclusion in that list. Wouldn't it be nice to know?

  16. #226
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    The self-same link, "Crash Landings in Portugal during 1942", that farnboroughrob posted, listed five Airacobras on the same date: 27 December 1942. A month later, FLIGHT published the photo below, indicating that there were, in point of fact, eleven Airacobras and that, rather than crashing, they had run out of fuel. I presume that these are the same incident:
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  17. #227
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    We have recently returned from holiday in the Azores flying via Lisbon. Being interested in the history of many of the places we visited I came across a few Portuguese websites of great interest. This one in particular has a lot of pictures and information (in Portuguese) relevant to this thread including the changing runway layouts at Lisbon. Click 'Mensagens Antigas' at the bottom of each page to continue reading.

    http://restosdecoleccao.blogspot.co....%20de%20Lisboa

    Also this one relating to the Clippers -

    http://restosdecoleccao.blogspot.co....label/Clippers

    The website has a lot more aviation content accessible down the right-hand side of the page.

    Mention of the Puss Moth reminds me of this photo I took in the museum at Sintra. Named "Marao" it completed the first Lisbon to India flight.

    Click image for larger version. 

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  18. #228
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    The link you posted has some really interesting content, Mothminor. There are several bits that I may come on to, at a later date perhaps, but, for the moment, let me post this photo and then, in my next post, draw attention to one element of it.

    So here is the photo from Mothminor's link - three DC-3s of the Portuguese airline, TAP, on the tarmac at Portela:
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    Last edited by ianwoodward9; 24th June 2017 at 13:03.

  19. #229
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    The photo in the previous post shows three TAP DC-3s: on the left is CS-TDA and on the right is CS-TDC. The one in the middle looks like it could be CS-TDB but that's not absolutely certain. Maybe, there is someone out there who can identify these three aircraft.

    Anyway, the two on the right are essentially in bare metal finish but CS-TDA, on the left, is not. It was TAP's first aircraft and still carries its previous 'warpaint' but with civil registration letters added - and they are in exactly the same style as the British civil markings worn by the BOAC-KLM DC-3s that visited Lisbon in WWII.
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    Last edited by ianwoodward9; 24th June 2017 at 13:01.

  20. #230
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    The style of lettering to which I was referring in the previous post, is clearly shown here in this detail from an IWM photograph of BOAC Dakota G-AGFZ - black lettering outlined in silver:
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  21. #231
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    Looking for more examples of BOAC Dakotas in WWII markings, I came upon the photograph below in a 1975 issue of AEROPLANE. It is captioned, “a quartet of BOAC Dakota IIIs under overhaul at Croydon in January 1945” but this caption is a bit misleading.

    (1) The Dakota at the rear of the photo still bears its RAF roundels not BOAC's colours.
    (2) The two that can be identified (G-AGKJ and G-AGKL) are both Dakota IVs, not Dakota IIIs. They were part of a batch of four ex-RAF Dakotas placed on the civil register by BOAC on the same day, namely 7 November 1944. The batch ran from G-AGKI to G-AGKL.

    The registration markings on the wings look very fresh and I think I can see a chalk guideline above the letters “G”,”K” and “L” on the one in the foreground. Is it possible that these are the aforementioned batch of four Dakota IVs in the process of being civilianised?
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  22. #232
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    From research I have done on one on the 110 wing squadrons in 1945-6 is very murky. 110 wing had operated scheduled flights from 1945 to Naples, Paris, Brussels, Warsaw, Athens, Berlin, and the Channel islands, among others. From January 1st 1946 these were operated on behalf of the European Division of BOAC , which of course became BEA. The reason was the delay in acquiring enough Dakotas. The RAF lend-lease daks could not be used by BOAC as part of the agreement, so there was a delay in purchasing the aircraft. Getting back on track they are some very interesting photos at Lisbon. CS-TDA was delivered from USAAF stocks the former 42-100930, clearly it retained us US camo for a while.

  23. #233
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    Thank you, farnboroughrob, for the background on CS-TDA. I offer the following re: 110 Wing. It is taken from Phil Lo Bao's history of BEA and is really all the book says on the subject.

    "While this was going on...", at the start, refers to the preceding paragraph which summarises what was happening at the political level in 1945. The succeeding paragraph notes the Civil Aviation Act coming into effect on 1 August 1946. As of that date, BEA came into being in its own right and inherited twenty-four DC-3 and eight Viking 1A aircraft from BOAC. Technically, they were leased from BOAC at first but BEA progressively came into ownership of them.
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  24. #234
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    The Jenny Gradidge Air Britain DC-3 book has C-47 19393 42-100930, interned Portugal 16July 1944, to Tranportes Aereos Militares as D-2/ CS-EDB, then 28 May 1945 to T.A.P as CS-TDA...derelict Mozambique 2003. So it's a reasonable assumption that it's the unmarked C-47 in the Portela photo post #205 giving that a 'not before'date of 16 July 1944

  25. #235
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    The Restosdecollecao blog, which led to the Novais/Gulbenkian Portela photos on flickr, has also produced some maps of runway development at Portela...only 05/23 and 18/36 remain in use with added taxiways and infrastructureClick image for larger version. 

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  26. #236
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    Thanks, longshot, for the additional info on CS-TDA and the possible/probable connection to the photo in Post # 205. I don't know if Jenny Gradidge identified any other DC-3s impounded by the Portuguese around this time but, if not, it would seem that they must be one and the same.

  27. #237
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    Moving to the British end of the Lisbon route and to the beginning of WWII rather than the later years, this image shows an Ensign, probably at Whitchurch. Its identity is far from clear but it looks like it could be G-ADSX. If so, it is interesting to note that, while it is no longer in a bare metal finish, it does yet wear the rudder 'stripes' etc required by the French authorities of British aircraft operating in France in support of troops there. Instead, it has a darkish, dull and ill-defined finish, as though hastily camouflaged.

    Perhaps this is a well-known photograph and somebody can provide additional information.
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  28. #238
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    Re previous post - does that look like 'G-ADSX' on the fuselage to you?
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  29. #239
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    Getting back to KLM now.

    This is another still from the Pathe Newsreel in Post # 148, the one about KLM air hostesses . This still is taken from the first few seconds and shows a signpost with the routes flown from Schiphol. In this case, it shows the direct flights to LONDON and also the service to LIVERPOOL, via DONCASTER.

    Earlier, Dr Plesman, the head of KLM, had attempted to ‘woo’ the Lord Mayor of Manchester by offering an Amsterdam- Manchester via Hull. In the end, on 1 June 1934, KLM launched a service from Amsterdam to Liverpool via Hull (Heddon), using Fokker XIIs, I believe. This service came with rights to carry passengers on the Liverpool to Hull sector (that is, a UK internal passenger flight) and to carry GPO mail from Hull to Amsterdam (including mail destined for other parts of northern Europe). It was a weekday service.

    Sometime in 1936, the intermediate stop became Doncaster, not Hull, and it is this service that is shown on the signpost in that bit of newsreel footage. Does anyone know the date of this change?

    From 27 June 1938, Manchester was added to the route. In 1939, Doncaster was a ‘request stop’ on flights in both directions and Rotterdam a request stop on the return flight. This latter change may have happened on the inauguration of the Manchester or it may have been a later amendment – I don’t know which.
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