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Thread: Allison-Engined Messerschmitt Fires Up....

  1. #1
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    Allison-Engined Messerschmitt Fires Up....

    Yes, it's on Facebook.....

    https://www.facebook.com/eacmadras/v...1368048315906/

    Erickson Aircraft Collection's Hispano Buchon, re-engined with an Allison V-12, finally fires up.

    Admittedly, I kinda like it!
    Daren Cogdon

    Spitfire fanatic

  2. #2
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    An interesting conversion, looking forward to seeing some footage of that flying! It won't have that D-B howl but it's going to be a good looking 109 I guess!
    A Little VC10derness - A Tribute to the Vickers VC10 - www.VC10.net

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    Is there a non-standard exhaust manifold to make it look a bit more DB on the installation?

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    Meh. Carbs and silencers. Willy will be turning in his grave...

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    The ingenuity that went into this project is off the charts. Yes it's powered by an Allison V-1710 (far cheaper to operate in the long run than a DB 605), but it maintains the same thrust line/prop mounting location as a stock Bf-109G, and the exhaust is routed through the same locations as a stock DB 605 installation. This of course means too that the cowlings are stock Bf-109G as well (the Allison being narrow enough to allow for it). The aircraft has a Bf-109G-10 tail and G-10 style "Galland canopy", as well as a very detailed cockpit. Can't wait to see the first flight photos!
    Last edited by JohnTerrell; 19th March 2017 at 23:44.

  6. #6
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    From Lorraine Martinelli on FBook.. "does it have an Allison? Yes it does. The 109 type airframe, during production have several engines. The RR Kestrel and Merlin, The Jumo 210 and 211, The DB 601,603 and 605 and the Hispano. So why not put an Allison. The Allison allowed us to put the prop shaft in the same location as the DB 605 on the G/K 109's, The cowling is not newly fabricated. It is in fact real Messerschmit cowling that we located in Europe. The top and foward (oil tank cowl) are "Type 100" and the lower cowl is "late G/K Type 110". We made no modifications to cowling or how it mounts to the airframe, we did however have to make some internal mods to cowling to fit in places. The spinner is real 109 G/K style. The exhaust as you can see is modified from original Allison, to drop down and fit into 109/DB 605 stacks. The oil cooler is in the stock location and is a custom package. The lower cowl hinges open as do the top (same as original 109)."

    So once again people jump to be critical without bothering to discover the background as above...

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Piston View Post
    Meh. Carbs and silencers. Willy will be turning in his grave...
    Considering the prototype "109" flew with a foreign engine, probably not.
    I'd guess he'd appreciate the practicality and ingenuity.
    There are two sides to every story. The truth is usually somewhere between the two.

  8. #8
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    Is the Allison the 'right way up' (crankshaft down / camshafts up)? Looks to me like it is. If so that would make this installation, given the faithful exterior profile, even more remarkable!

    One question: are Allison engines particularly common in the United States? I understand that they'd be far easier to obtain serviceable parts than any Daimler-Benz engine but by the middle of the war, and post-war, the only aircraft using the V-1710 would be the P-38?

    I think there's an Il-2 flying with a V-1710 too.
    WA$.

  9. #9
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    Terrific conversion! I wonder if they got the idea from the Flug Werk 190 long nose conversion that (AFAIK) never flew?
    Have YOU used the "Will it be at Legends" joke yet today?

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    Do you mean US mid-war or UK mid-war? Either, however, by 1944 there were still a lot of Allison-engined P-40s, and P-39s, even P-51/51A/A-36 Mustangs, with the P-63 around too. The post-war F-82 also had the Allison. There are certainly enough still around to be used on the new-production Yak fighters and conversions from Yak 11s.

    PS Excellent conversion work.

  11. #11
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    Not much in it, engine development wise, between the UK and US wars, nor in numbers produced probably? I must admit that I'd forgotten about the P-39 / P-63 and had no idea that the F-82 was powered by the V-1710, I'd always assumed it was powered by the V-1650 Merlin.

    I suppose what I was driving-at was that production and development of the V-1710 wouldn't have gone on long after the war ended, unlike the Merlin, Griffon or the range of US radial engines. Of course, all these would have had much more post-war service that any German engine.
    Last edited by Creaking Door; 20th March 2017 at 11:40.
    WA$.

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    If it flapped it's wings any more it wouldn't need the engine!

    A neat solution to retaining the look of the 109 when no DB engine is installed rather than the Buchon style nose…
    Under my gruff exterior lies an even gruffer interior...

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  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bob View Post
    A neat solution to retaining the look of the 109 when no DB engine is installed rather than the Buchon style nose…
    Leading many to wonder why it looks funny, considering we usually see only 109s with Buchon-Merlin noses in films.
    Last edited by J Boyle; 20th March 2017 at 20:29.
    There are two sides to every story. The truth is usually somewhere between the two.

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    Quote Originally Posted by scotavia View Post
    From Lorraine Martinelli on FBook.. "does it have an Allison? Yes it does. The 109 type airframe, during production have several engines. The RR Kestrel and Merlin, The Jumo 210 and 211, The DB 601,603 and 605 and the Hispano. So why not put an Allison. The Allison allowed us to put the prop shaft in the same location as the DB 605 on the G/K 109's, The cowling is not newly fabricated. It is in fact real Messerschmit cowling that we located in Europe. The top and foward (oil tank cowl) are "Type 100" and the lower cowl is "late G/K Type 110". We made no modifications to cowling or how it mounts to the airframe, we did however have to make some internal mods to cowling to fit in places. The spinner is real 109 G/K style. The exhaust as you can see is modified from original Allison, to drop down and fit into 109/DB 605 stacks. The oil cooler is in the stock location and is a custom package. The lower cowl hinges open as do the top (same as original 109)."

    So once again people jump to be critical without bothering to discover the background as above...
    Very small correction: Bf 109 never had DB 603`s fitted due to the size. DB 603`s were so called "bomber engines", mainly used on multi engine aircraft, though Ta 152 C and Fw 190 C used the DB 603. (Fw 190 C and Ta 152 C never made it to production run. BTW both had a much larger firewall crosssection than the Bf 109.)


    Michael

  15. #15
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    I think this 109 is going to look fantastic, in formation with Bob Dufords Allison engined Spitfire

    The day that happens,those two guys will be having the most fun of just about everyone.
    Even more fun than the purists who will complain about, well, just about anything they can.

    This is a very innovative solution to operate a 109 safely and reliably at a fraction of the cost of a DB powered 109 (don't get me wrong, those are way cool too!)

    I congratulate Ericksons on a fantastic milestone and wish them nothing but success and safe flying.

    Andy

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    Very interesting, just wondering How are the extended exhaust stacks under the cowling going to be kept cool?

  17. #17
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    Hi All,
    Must admit looks better than the 'Merlin' engine Buchons, I always wondered why nobody ever tried this with the original Buchons in the BoB film or since
    to try and have a similar profile to the DB engined 109E's ? With this it looks like they have achieved this goal with although a G profile it looks really good,
    well done to all involved with this project you should all be very proud of yourselves...

    Geoff.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by trekbuster View Post
    Very interesting, just wondering How are the extended exhaust stacks under the cowling going to be kept cool?
    I had the same thoughts. It looks like those stacks can glow red-hot without ventilation or shielding, or perhaps they have a heat-proof ceramic coating.

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    What sort of propeller are they intending to use with the Allison?

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    Quote Originally Posted by 1batfastard View Post
    I always wondered why nobody ever tried this with the original Buchons in the BoB film or since
    to try and have a similar profile to the DB engined 109E's ?
    That's a regulatory thing. When they made the BoB film they used what was available and there is a distinct difference between the cosmetic changes to the Spitfires and re-engining a fleet of Buchons. I guess that they also wanted to keep a bit of the budget available for things like the planned Procktukas and such.

    With the Merlin engine there is a design for the engine bearer and installation available as this was done for the Buchon version. All nicely drawn up with relevant strength calculations and lots of experience in operating this version. That's what authorities want to see. The same thing goes for a D-B engine, all the research for that was done by Messerschmidt so even if you are converting a Buchon back to a Daimler-Benz, you are building (or converting) to an existing design.

    With the Allison engine, none of this is available so you need to do all the stress calculations, design an engine bearer, work out how the installation issues are fixed, design an exhaust, find a suitable prop and do all the test flying. Within EASA land (or even just the CAA in the UK) that is not going to happen. In the US you can do things like this under the 'experimental' classification, which allows for these kind of creative engineering solutions.
    A Little VC10derness - A Tribute to the Vickers VC10 - www.VC10.net

  21. #21
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    Daren Cogdon

    Spitfire fanatic

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    Very interesting but (and this will upset Buchon fans) if it aint got a DB engine it aint a 109.
    Nice replica though.

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    One of the most interesting warbird projects I've ever followed. It sure looks sweet, and it should be a blast for anyone fortunate enough to be in a position to fly it or watch it perform first-hand - better looks and better engine than its original Buchon format (my opinion), and sitting in the cockpit, you hardly would know that it is anything other than a stock Bf-109G. It goes well together with the museum's Flugwerk Fw-190 and reproduction Japanese Oscar (the only one flying in the world).
    Last edited by JohnTerrell; 2nd April 2017 at 18:23.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hampden98 View Post
    Very interesting but (and this will upset Buchon fans) if it aint got a DB engine it aint a 109.
    Nice replica though.
    I'd say the biggest reason Buchon fans would be upset with that statement, is because it's not a fact.
    The first 109 prototype was powered by a RR Kestrel.
    The 109 airframe has flown behind lots of different powerplants during its history.

    Andy

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    Quote Originally Posted by DH82EH View Post
    I'd say the biggest reason Buchon fans would be upset with that statement, is because it's not a fact.
    The first 109 prototype was powered by a RR Kestrel.
    The 109 airframe has flown behind lots of different powerplants during its history.

    Andy
    Absolutely. But that doesn't change the fact that we all want to see a `proper` 109 with a DB engine.
    Happy to see a Buchon with a Merlin, or even a Buchon with an Alison.
    But it's a 109 with a DB engine everyone wants. The spirit of the 109 will not live again without one.

  27. #27
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    But it's a 109 with a DB engine everyone wants. The spirit of the 109 will not live again without one.
    Isnt it Retrotech who are remanufacturing Db601 heads and reductiion gearboxes?
    "If the C.O. ask's you to be Tail End Charlie...just shoot him!!!....A Piece of Cake.
    http://spitfirea58-27.blogspot.com.au/

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    Cool bloody ripper

    very nice much better then those ugly mug's, can they do more ???
    Cheer's all far and WIDE!! , Tally Ho from Phil in Oz!

    WHAT GOE'S UP MUST COME DOWN

  29. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by QldSpitty View Post
    Isnt it Retrotech who are remanufacturing Db601 heads and reductiion gearboxes?
    Aero Vintage offers a new DB-601 reduction gear cover. They commissioned their own proprietary engineering drawings for the part. Nothing in their info about new heads, unless this is a new project (and great if true.)

    http://www.aerovintagespares.com/avs...ear_Cover.html

  30. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by hampden98 View Post
    Absolutely. But that doesn't change the fact that we all want to see a `proper` 109 with a DB engine.
    Happy to see a Buchon with a Merlin, or even a Buchon with an Alison.
    But it's a 109 with a DB engine everyone wants. The spirit of the 109 will not live again without one.
    The title of this thread is "Allison engined Messerschmitt..."
    You knew what you were getting in to when you clicked on it.
    Everyone who looks at this website wants to see DB powered 109s. This is not one of them, however many of us like it and the innovation required for this accomplishment.
    Your comment adds nothing, and only serves to annoy.

    I've learned that flinging muck on the internet is a lot like wrestling with a pig.
    You both get dirty, and the pig don't care.

    Andy

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