Key.Aero Network
Register Free

Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst 12
Results 31 to 50 of 50

Thread: Radar AESA GaN vs. Radar AESA GaAs !

  1. #31
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Location
    Cemetery Junction
    Posts
    13,396
    Quote Originally Posted by bring_it_on View Post
    Yes..so far there is no commitment from either of the two Gripen-NG customers to completely swap out the Selex's radar for SAAB's current set (SAAB categorically denied that this would be the case) and there is no program of record to do anything with the current Gripen-C installed base. As of yet it remains a test article that to my best knowledge has not been flight tested. When I first heard of it, during SAAB's PR efforts in South Korea it did appear that they were coming out as a fast mover and were looking to upgrade the current Gripen installed base while at the same time also seek new programs to integrate the sensor on. It now appears that they would require customer funding before they move ahead with serious development, testing and integration.

    Volume has a great way of bringing cost down so short of a very large order, folks looking to upgrade fighters will be very picky in terms of what industrial efforts they decide to fund. Once you have other programs also leveraging the same industrial base for similar components you can then drive cost and risk out. This is the approach I see fighter AESA upgrades take once ground based sensors have created the infrastructure and reduced cost.
    Gripen E is currently committed to the Selex/Saab Raven, with its swivelling antenna. That could get a GaN array some time in the future. The new SAAB radar is based on the PS-05/A with a fixed AESA antenna. It's something that SAAB has done a fair bit of work on over the years, but which was rejected in favour of the wider field of view of the Selex offer. The fixed array is simpler, & should be cheaper & lighter & easier to fit to various aircraft.

    Selex has done pretty well in the fighter radar retrofit market with the Grifo, but the AESA Vixen has so far not taken off. AFAIK it's only been bought by the USA for border surveillance, in its most basic form. We'll have to wait & see whether SAAB can get into that market. It's got a range of ground & ship-based radars which have recently been re-launched with GaN antennae, & the new versions are reported to be selling. The Erieye AEW radar also has its first customer for its GaN version. It's starting to build up the infrastructure you refer to. But others are also getting in there: Thales is offering GaN ground/ship-based radars.
    Juris praecepta sunt haec: honeste vivere, alterum non laedere, suum cuique tribuere.
    Justinian

  2. #32
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Location
    Columbia, MD
    Posts
    11,028
    Quote Originally Posted by swerve View Post
    Gripen E is currently committed to the Selex/Saab Raven, with its swivelling antenna. That could get a GaN array some time in the future. The new SAAB radar is based on the PS-05/A with a fixed AESA antenna. It's something that SAAB has done a fair bit of work on over the years, but which was rejected in favour of the wider field of view of the Selex offer. The fixed array is simpler, & should be cheaper & lighter & easier to fit to various aircraft.

    Selex has done pretty well in the fighter radar retrofit market with the Grifo, but the AESA Vixen has so far not taken off. AFAIK it's only been bought by the USA for border surveillance, in its most basic form. We'll have to wait & see whether SAAB can get into that market. It's got a range of ground & ship-based radars which have recently been re-launched with GaN antennae, & the new versions are reported to be selling. The Erieye AEW radar also has its first customer for its GaN version. It's starting to build up the infrastructure you refer to. But others are also getting in there: Thales is offering GaN ground/ship-based radars.
    Right. And as I said once volume drives out cost and risk the upgrades will become more appealing to potential customers, whether that is cutting in a new antenna on an existing acquisition program or upgrades to older antennas. Following ground based AESA developmental programs is part of my work, so I am fairly up to date on who is doing what but as I said volume is the key to bring cost down so it is going to make some difference in any manufacturers ability to move early or move into a market in a really big way.

    That is why I had said that despite Northrop Grumman having the largest share of the future global fighter based AESA market, it is Raytheon's volume in terms of not only the sheer number of GaN AESA's being developed or proposed by it but the number they are building that will put the company in an advantageous position vis a vis their international and domestic competitors when it comes to offering solutions that are lower cost and lower risk.
    Last edited by bring_it_on; 17th March 2017 at 09:43.
    Old radar types never die; they just phased array

  3. #33
    Join Date
    Dec 2015
    Posts
    825
    Quote Originally Posted by obligatory View Post
    70% increase is decent you say ?
    what would it take for you to say its a quantum leap then ?
    Like 3-4 times different in detection range
    Quote Originally Posted by obligatory View Post
    yes, those are two unlucky customers that ordered the day before GaAs became obsolete,
    same story as with F-35.
    PAK-FA otoh got the timing right
    doesn't N036 Byelka use GaAs also ?

  4. #34
    Join Date
    Mar 2016
    Posts
    76
    Quote Originally Posted by bring_it_on View Post
    Yes..so far there is no commitment from either of the two Gripen-NG customers to completely swap out the Selex's radar for SAAB's current set (SAAB categorically denied that this would be the case) and there is no program of record to do anything with the current Gripen-C installed base. As of yet it remains a test article that to my best knowledge has not been flight tested. When I first heard of it, during SAAB's PR efforts in South Korea it did appear that they were coming out as a fast mover and were looking to upgrade the current Gripen installed base while at the same time also seek new programs to integrate the sensor on. It now appears that they would require customer funding before they move ahead with serious development, testing and integration.

    Volume has a great way of bringing cost down so short of a very large order, folks looking to upgrade fighters will be very picky in terms of what industrial efforts they decide to fund. Once you have other programs also leveraging the same industrial base for similar components you can then drive cost and risk out. This is the approach I see fighter AESA upgrades take once ground based sensors have created the infrastructure and reduced cost.
    SAAB announced in June 2016 that they had a prototype of a GaN AESA radar, and that they would be
    flying soon.

    http://defenceupdate.in/saab-offers-...elects-gripen/

    Visited SAAB last autumn and they said that the reason the Selex radar was selected was timing.
    The decision on radar was made way before the GaN could be shown.
    Last edited by APRichelieu; 17th March 2017 at 11:03.

  5. #35
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Posts
    2,227
    http://www.richardsonrfpd.com/drc/En...tions_Blog.pdf

    Despite undeniable performance advantageous for power applications and widespread usage in
    military applications, commercial adoption of the technology for RF applications has been much
    slower than expected. Initial concerns about reliability and repeatability have become moot as
    deployed systems build a compelling set of actual metrics. The cost issue is much thornier. To
    take full advantage of the material advantages of GaN, just about every RF manufacturer uses
    a GaN-on-SiC wafer scheme. Low volumes, the cost of the SiC wafers, coupled with wafer
    diameters in the 2” – 4” range all contribute to GaN devices being much more expensive than
    competitive technologies. Research that we conducted three years ago had GaN running about
    three times the price of GaAs and LDMOS in power applications
    Commercial use of GaN based applications seem to be another piece in the puzzle of driving down costs. According the the above, 2017 will see a large growth in commercial use of GaN based electronics,
    "It does appear that the RF market segments that have been discussed have passed the tipping point"

  6. #36
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Posts
    2,227
    Quote Originally Posted by APRichelieu View Post
    SAAB announced in June 2016 that they had a prototype of a GaN AESA radar, and that they would be
    flying soon.

    http://defenceupdate.in/saab-offers-...elects-gripen/

    Visited SAAB last autumn and they said that the reason the Selex radar was selected was timing.
    The decision on radar was made way before the GaN could be shown.
    Where does it say it will be flying soon? The article, and every article I've seen has stated the same thing
    "We talked in India – we said if India would choose Gripen, then we would be willing to share this technology and co-develop it. We have a lot to contribute but we’re willing to share that
    They are looking for a partner to invest in developing said radar. They have shown models, but obviously need an application. The latest offering is a sensor package for the Tejas:
    https://www.compoundsemiconductor.ne...-aircraft.html
    https://www.shephardmedia.com/news/d...age-tejas-lca/
    (picture)

  7. #37
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Location
    Columbia, MD
    Posts
    11,028
    Quote Originally Posted by APRichelieu View Post
    SAAB announced in June 2016 that they had a prototype of a GaN AESA radar, and that they would be
    flying soon.

    http://defenceupdate.in/saab-offers-...elects-gripen/

    Visited SAAB last autumn and they said that the reason the Selex radar was selected was timing.
    The decision on radar was made way before the GaN could be shown.
    How is that different to what I said?

    A bit of correction on your dates - SAAB claims to have begun lab testing of the antenna configuration in 2014. The first I heard of this was in Oct. 2015 when they took a model of the radar antenna to a trade show in Seoul and that was widely reported at the time. To the best of my knowledge no flight test article has yet been delivered for testing. Since Korea did not show interest the marketing has shifted to India which is looking for an AESA for its light fighter. So far I have not seen any commitment from any Gripen-C customer so its future remains uncertain.

    SAAB's official position vis-a-vis the radar was (as of Late 2015) -

    The GaN radar, which Saab has not named, is not intended for the Gripen, says a Saab spokesperson. And it will not be flight tested until Saab has a customer with a specific aircraft application. The sensor has not been created for the Gripen E/F, because that aircraft is under development with the Selex Raven AESA radar, which uses gallium arsenide. ~ Bradley Perett, Bill Sweetmann AvWeek
    Last edited by bring_it_on; 17th March 2017 at 11:55.
    Old radar types never die; they just phased array

  8. #38
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Posts
    495
    Quote Originally Posted by swerve View Post
    Gripen E is currently committed to the Selex/Saab Raven, with its swivelling antenna. That could get a GaN array some time in the future. The new SAAB radar is based on the PS-05/A with a fixed AESA antenna. It's something that SAAB has done a fair bit of work on over the years, but which was rejected in favour of the wider field of view of the Selex offer. The fixed array is simpler, & should be cheaper & lighter & easier to fit to various aircraft.

    Selex has done pretty well in the fighter radar retrofit market with the Grifo, but the AESA Vixen has so far not taken off.
    Isn't AESA Vixen pretty much same as Raven ES-05?
    If one wants to take full advantage of GaN power, cooling of the array may be too challenging for mechanically steerable array.

  9. #39
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Posts
    3,355
    Quote Originally Posted by Yama View Post
    Isn't AESA Vixen pretty much same as Raven ES-05?
    Not quite, Selex Vixen is a family of Radars, one of them was known in the past has Selex Vixen 1000 Raven, today is called Raven ES-05.

  10. #40
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Location
    Cemetery Junction
    Posts
    13,396
    Yep. I think the Raven ES-05 is a Gripen-specific model, but a Vixen 1000, presumably without whatever Swedish tweaks are in the Raven, is on the Selex website now. Selex has shown an antenna configuration for the F-16, but I think that may have been dropped as pointless in view of the US support for its own F-16 AESA radars.

    The original, smallest, Vixen model, the 500E, has been sold to the US Customs & Border Protection, replacing old F-16 radars (from F-16As, I think) in border surveillance aircraft (operational for about 5 years now), & to the US Test Pilot School for some of its trainers. It was intended for armed trainers & light fighters.

    The USCG has Selex Seaspray 7500E AESA radars in its HC-130s (operational in 2008, I think), but they're mainly for surface search. They're not fighter radars.
    Juris praecepta sunt haec: honeste vivere, alterum non laedere, suum cuique tribuere.
    Justinian

  11. #41
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Asia
    Posts
    7,054
    Quote Originally Posted by garryA View Post
    Like 3-4 times different in detection range

    doesn't N036 Byelka use GaAs also ?
    sounds like you are confused, a 70% increase is a quantum leap in capability,
    it was revealed in pak-fa thread the production radar is going to be GaN, tho you would better ask
    haavarla or TR-1 to point at the article
    the missile will require about five times the G capability of the target to complete a successful intercept.
    -Robert L Shaw

  12. #42
    Join Date
    Mar 2016
    Posts
    76
    Quote Originally Posted by FBW View Post
    Where does it say it will be flying soon? The article, and every article I've seen has stated the same thing

    They are looking for a partner to invest in developing said radar. They have shown models, but obviously need an application. The latest offering is a sensor package for the Tejas:
    https://www.compoundsemiconductor.ne...-aircraft.html
    https://www.shephardmedia.com/news/d...age-tejas-lca/
    (picture)
    In the last sentence of the "ITAR-free" paragraph.

    Tossman announced, “AESA Gallium Nitride ITAR-free (International Traffic in Arms Regulations, which are U.S. rules for controlling the export of defense technologies). That means we own our own technology. We decide what to do with it. So we are not dependent on any others’ approval if we can or cannot share that technology – it’s our decision,” adding, “We are now having the prototype and soon going to fly with the AESA GaN. That’s where we are and this is ITAR-free.”

    This means that they have a radar, but it might not have the right dimension for a Tejas version
    (Or indeed a Gripen version), so it would need customization.

    It is of course possible that the journalist has confused the fighter radar with the GlobalEye radar.
    Last edited by APRichelieu; 17th March 2017 at 19:26.

  13. #43
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Asia
    Posts
    7,054
    Quote Originally Posted by bring_it_on View Post
    So far I have not seen any commitment from any Gripen-C customer so its future remains uncertain.
    gripen C will not use any AESA
    the missile will require about five times the G capability of the target to complete a successful intercept.
    -Robert L Shaw

  14. #44
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Location
    Columbia, MD
    Posts
    11,028
    Quote Originally Posted by obligatory View Post
    gripen C will not use any AESA
    And Gripen-E customers aren't swapping a radar out even when the aircraft has yet to finish development and testing. That leaves only a new fighter program for such a radar application so lots of work to do but before everything else, they have to secure a customer.
    Old radar types never die; they just phased array

  15. #45
    Join Date
    Jun 2014
    Posts
    1,307
    Quote Originally Posted by bring_it_on View Post
    And Gripen-E customers aren't swapping a radar out even when the aircraft has yet to finish development and testing. That leaves only a new fighter program for such a radar application so lots of work to do but before everything else, they have to secure a customer.
    So it means we would have to wait until 2030 at the earliest if we talk about western ones? No possibility for the new Eurofighter's one?

  16. #46
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Location
    Cemetery Junction
    Posts
    13,396
    Can you clarify that? Wait until 2030 for what?

    If you mean an AESA fighter radar, then there's plenty of choice. Raytheon & Northrop Grumman both have 'em, including radars advertised as scalable (RACR & SABR) for various fighters, Elta has one (EL/M-2052) & Selex has a family covering armed trainers/light fighters up to high-end fighters, Thales has one in service. Japan might even sell you the J/APG-2.

    If you want one with a GaN antenna, then I expect you could get one of the above adapted well before 2030. SAAB converted its Erieye AEW radar to GaN in a fraction of that time, & integrated it into a new platform.
    Last edited by swerve; 17th March 2017 at 21:44.
    Juris praecepta sunt haec: honeste vivere, alterum non laedere, suum cuique tribuere.
    Justinian

  17. #47
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Asia
    Posts
    7,054
    i think marcellogo refer to the fact that if an AF just got a spanky new GaAs AESA,
    they wont get the money for a spanky new GaN AESA anytime soon, throwing those spanky new GaAs AESA
    in the trash can in the process.
    USAF might be exempted from the principle of monetary diligence tho
    the missile will require about five times the G capability of the target to complete a successful intercept.
    -Robert L Shaw

  18. #48
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Location
    Columbia, MD
    Posts
    11,028
    Quote Originally Posted by Marcellogo View Post
    So it means we would have to wait until 2030 at the earliest if we talk about western ones? No possibility for the new Eurofighter's one?
    That depends upon the replacement cycle I guess. Eurofighter can well upgrade antennas either through blocks i.e. introduce the GaAs radar for a small number of fighters initially and then switch to the GaN antenna. But they won't go for SAAB but use the existing AESA being developed and tested for it.

    Quote Originally Posted by obligatory View Post
    i think marcellogo refer to the fact that if an AF just got a spanky new GaAs AESA,
    they wont get the money for a spanky new GaN AESA anytime soon, throwing those spanky new GaAs AESA
    in the trash can in the process.
    USAF might be exempted from the principle of monetary diligence tho
    Depends upon the program of concern here and when you cut it into production. On the JSF there are a lot of F-35's that are yet unordered and even if we look beyond block 4 there will still be hundreds of fighters yet to be produced and at scale. The two principle advantages of GaN antennas here are the ability to run more efficiently thereby consuming less power and cooling resources for a given performance (smaller power and thermal footprint for a fixed performance) or the ability to extract a lot more performance by addressing the power and thermal capacity. Either way I can see plenty of reasons to cut it into production as capability is added in future blocks, but it would be a requirements driven upgrade or new production process. On the F-22 a commonality drove the decision to upgrade to the current generation of GaAs modules so as the GaAs radar footprint for NG and its suppliers falls and the GaN footprint rises there may be an economic argument to cut it into production.
    Last edited by bring_it_on; 17th March 2017 at 23:06.
    Old radar types never die; they just phased array

  19. #49
    Join Date
    Jun 2014
    Posts
    1,307
    Quote Originally Posted by obligatory View Post
    i think marcellogo refer to the fact that if an AF just got a spanky new GaAs AESA,
    they wont get the money for a spanky new GaN AESA anytime soon, throwing those spanky new GaAs AESA
    in the trash can in the process.
    USAF might be exempted from the principle of monetary diligence tho
    Quote Originally Posted by swerve View Post
    Can you clarify that? Wait until 2030 for what?

    If you mean an AESA fighter radar, then there's plenty of choice. Raytheon & Northrop Grumman both have 'em, including radars advertised as scalable (RACR & SABR) for various fighters, Elta has one (EL/M-2052) & Selex has a family covering armed trainers/light fighters up to high-end fighters, Thales has one in service. Japan might even sell you the J/APG-2.

    If you want one with a GaN antenna, then I expect you could get one of the above adapted well before 2030. SAAB converted its Erieye AEW radar to GaN in a fraction of that time, & integrated it into a new platform.
    I was referring to the Bring-it-on saying that leaves only a new fighter program for such a radar application: given that the only completely new fighter programs on the run in the west are the US ones for after 2030 i though he referred to it.

  20. #50
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Location
    Columbia, MD
    Posts
    11,028
    I was thinking more of their marketing and bids in the Indian LCA radar competition and the new programs being developed there and in Turkey. The first time SAAB offered this radar was actually for the Korean KF-X where the Koreans decided against a foreign radar choosing instead to develop their own with the help from the Israelis.
    Old radar types never die; they just phased array

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

- Part of the    Network -

KEY AERO AVIATION NEWS

MAGAZINES

AVIATION FORUM

SHOP

 

WEBSITES