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Thread: Does France or Sweden ever plan on developing stealth aircraft ?

  1. #1
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    Does France or Sweden ever plan on developing stealth aircraft ?

    Is there anything in the pipeline at all ? If these mfg'ers want to be considered world class, do they not have to get on with at least developing something ?

    People give Russia a hard time for refraining from making its 2nd tier (Mig 29/35 line) stealth. Even that has changed now with the news of the UAE deal. Russia probably had plans for it all along but was shopping it for another sovereign to get in.

    That will put even more distance between the aviation superpowers (Russia and US) and the rest.

    I am a stealth skeptic myself but that doesn't matter. Perception is everything.

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    maybe not in the next 10 years. Some of the people in this forum be like "Rafale is a stealth aircraft".

    that said, I would really like to see them make one.
    The French don't disappoint in aircraft design
    and neither do the Swedes

    but Saab did make a concept model (and a miniature flying one) called FS2020 which looks more or less like a Stealth Gripen
    a bit ugly and its internal bay doesn't seem like it can carry any meaningful loads besides basic air policing.
    I think there can be no such thing as a stealth light fighter, due to the bay issue, it's gonna be at least medium weight (around F-35 and MiG-29) and heavier.


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    sweden is a partner in neuron project so clearly they intend to have one at least for A2G
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dassault_nEUROn
    earlier they built a demonstrator
    http://saabgroup.com/Media/news-pres...ht-with-FILUR/

    the gripen E will last to 2050 and its futile to predict what will be relevant by that time when its time for a new fighter,
    i dont think any current fighter will be upgradable to fit A2A then
    Last edited by obligatory; 14th March 2017 at 08:13.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Y-20 Bacon View Post
    but Saab did make a concept model (and a miniature flying one) called FS2020 which looks more or less like a Stealth Gripen
    a bit ugly and its internal bay doesn't seem like it can carry any meaningful loads besides basic air policing.
    I think there can be no such thing as a stealth light fighter, due to the bay issue, it's gonna be at least medium weight (around F-35 and MiG-29) and heavier.
    That concept is by no means a light fighter, it is heavy and requires an engine of around 165 KN. Also the internal bay capacity is the same as the F-35.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Y-20 Bacon View Post
    maybe not in the next 10 years. Some of the people in this forum be like "Rafale is a stealth aircraft".

    that said, I would really like to see them make one.
    The French don't disappoint in aircraft design
    and neither do the Swedes

    but Saab did make a concept model (and a miniature flying one) called FS2020 which looks more or less like a Stealth Gripen
    a bit ugly and its internal bay doesn't seem like it can carry any meaningful loads besides basic air policing.
    I think there can be no such thing as a stealth light fighter, due to the bay issue, it's gonna be at least medium weight (around F-35 and MiG-29) and heavier.

    Cool. I don't think this is ugly.

    Watch someone on this thread be like " "Rafale is a stealth aircraft" no less stealth than the Pak Fa brah" Which is of course, complete and utter nonsense.

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    Quote Originally Posted by obligatory View Post
    sweden is a partner in neuron project so clearly they intend to have one at least for A2G
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dassault_nEUROn
    earlier they built a demonstrator
    http://saabgroup.com/Media/news-pres...ht-with-FILUR/

    the gripen E will last to 2050 and its futile to predict what will be relevant by that time when its time for a new fighter,
    i dont think any current fighter will be upgradable to fit A2A then
    Hmm this indicates that France and Sweden are leapfrogging the last manned 5th gen. So yeah. This counts.

    The program has three stated goals:

    To maintain and develop the skills of the participating European aerospace companies' design offices, which will not see any other new fighter programs before 2030 now that the Rafale, Eurofighter and Gripen projects are all complete or well underway.
    To investigate and validate technologies that will be needed by 2015 to design next-generation combat aircraft.
    To validate an innovative cooperation process by establishing a European industry team responsible for developing next-generation combat aircraft.

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    France and Sweden have both fielded Stealthy surface ships (earlier than most) and both have successful submarine industries. So they have a good knowledge base.

    They also have a track record of using their airframes until they wear out (rather than binning them with plenty of usable hours like we in the UK do) so I cannot see either fielding a VLO version of what they already have. VLO UCAVs (as well as winning in acronym bingo) gives them a new capability so look more likely.
    Rule zero: don't be on fire

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    Quote Originally Posted by JakobS View Post
    That concept is by no means a light fighter, it is heavy and requires an engine of around 165 KN. Also the internal bay capacity is the same as the F-35.
    The FS2020 is projected to have empty weight of 10 tons.. That is J-10-class, pretty much a light fighter to me..


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    Quote Originally Posted by MSphere View Post
    The FS2020 is projected to have empty weight of 10 tons.. That is J-10-class, pretty much a light fighter to me..

    An aircraft that weights the same has a Rafale, carries one more ton of fuel internaly than a Typhoon, with the size of a F-4 Phantom/Tornado GR4, three internal bays and with a F-119 engine is a "light fighter"?

    There were two FS2020 concepts, a single engine (the one above) equiped with a "F-119 class Turbofan", and another twin engined, mit heavier with two "F-414/EJ200".

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    Either concept would be directly comparable to the F-35 or the Phoon, not the Gripen or even the J-10.

    Cheers
    Last edited by Sintra; 14th March 2017 at 18:36.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sintra View Post
    An aircraft that weights the same has a Rafale, carries one more ton of fuel internaly than a Typhoon, with the size of a F-4 Phantom/Tornado GR4, three internal bays and with a F-119 engine is a "light fighter"?
    Yes, a light fighter.. pretty much the smallest and lightest concept of all.. comparing it to legacy light fighters like F-5 or MiG-21 would be exactly as pointless as claiming the Gripen is not a light fighter because it is 50% heavier than P-47 Thunderbolt.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sintra View Post
    There were two FS2020 concepts, a single engine (the one above) equiped with a "F-119 class Turbofan", and another twin engined, mit heavier with two "F-414/EJ200". Either concept would be directly comparable to the F-35 or the Phoon, not the Gripen or even the J-10.
    Well, the empty weight is said 10 ton, the J-10 is 10 ton, the F-35 is 14 ton. So, again, which one you said it was comparable to?

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    None of those links pertained to Sweden.

    To think that these programs unquestionably implied that Dassault and Gripen were basically going to stop evolving their product line and thus, phase out completely as time went on, is folly.

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    The real question is "Are there any deep pocket partners left who can help Dassaut or Saab defray the development costs?" Sukhoi, Lockeed, BAE and MiG did.

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    Quote Originally Posted by djcross View Post
    The real question is "Are there any deep pocket partners left who can help Dassaut or Saab defray the development costs?" Sukhoi, Lockeed, BAE and MiG did.
    Good point.

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    Quote Originally Posted by djcross View Post
    The real question is "Are there any deep pocket partners left who can help Dassaut or Saab defray the development costs?" Sukhoi, Lockeed, BAE and MiG did.
    did Mig do something?

    saab was supposedly linked with Turkey, which also linked with BAE

    no idea who'd dassault would work with but perhaps potentially with India if fgfa tech transfer doesnt pan out

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    Quote Originally Posted by Y-20 Bacon View Post
    did Mig do something?

    saab was supposedly linked with Turkey, which also linked with BAE

    no idea who'd dassault would work with but perhaps potentially with India if fgfa tech transfer doesnt pan out
    AMCA

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    Quote Originally Posted by KGB View Post
    None of those links pertained to Sweden.

    To think that these programs unquestionably implied that Dassault and Gripen were basically going to stop evolving their product line and thus, phase out completely as time went on, is folly.
    Sweden was one of the major contractants for nEUROn. Btw, the real awesme part of nEUROn (rarely advertised) was to build from sifferent countries on a single 3D model...

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    Quote Originally Posted by MSphere View Post
    Yes, a light fighter.. pretty much the smallest and lightest concept of all..
    Far from it, the single engined version of the FS2020 its actually quite a bit bigger than a F-35A or B. Its also longer than a the latest designs for the KFX, with around the same span, and its quite a bit bigger than severall of the TAI TFX conceptual designs.
    On the clean weight bit, let me express my doubts, those "10 tons" seems a bit too optimistic for an airframe of such dimensions.

    Quote Originally Posted by MSphere View Post
    comparing it to legacy light fighters like F-5 or MiG-21 would be exactly as pointless as claiming the Gripen is not a light fighter because it is 50% heavier than P-47 Thunderbolt.
    I´ve directly compared with the aircrafts that have identical dimensions, more specificaly two twin engined Eurocanards and the F-35A

    Quote Originally Posted by MSphere View Post
    Well, the empty weight is said 10 ton, the J-10 is 10 ton, the F-35 is 14 ton. So, again, which one you said it was comparable to?
    Its longer than than an F-35A, it has a bigger wing than an F-35A and it has three internal bays...
    Last edited by Sintra; 15th March 2017 at 10:55.

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    Quote Originally Posted by djcross View Post
    The real question is "Are there any deep pocket partners left who can help Dassaut or Saab defray the development costs?" Sukhoi, Lockeed, BAE and MiG did.
    Mig did "zilch"... And yes, unless you believe that sudenly the ADLA, and the Luftwaffe, and the Flygvapnet, etc, are all going to acquire entirely foreign hardware, the pockets of severall European MODs do seem to be big enough to fund the development of such equipment, several of them have bigger pockets than the likes of Turkey or Korea.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sintra View Post
    Its longer than than an F-35A, it has a bigger wing than an F-35A and it has three internal bays...
    But the F-35 is short and narrow for its weight. Anyway weight is the only dimension that matters when classifying aircraft. At 10 tons, it would be much lighter than F-35 and thus belongs in a different class. That's EF/Rafale/Hornet/Mig-29/J-10 class - I'd call that medium class. As in MMRCA
    How can less be more? It's impossible. More is more.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sintra View Post
    Mig did "zilch"... And yes, unless you believe that sudenly the ADLA, and the Luftwaffe, and the Flygvapnet, etc, are all going to acquire entirely foreign hardware, the pockets of severall European MODs do seem to be big enough to fund the development of such equipment, several of them have bigger pockets than the likes of Turkey or Korea.
    Russia, UAE to collaborate on 5th-generation fighter - UPI.com
    www.upi.com › Defense News
    Feb 20, 2017 - The new light combat aircraft to be developed jointly by Russia and the United Arab Emirates is expected to be based on the legacy MiG-29.

    Russia, UAE To Develop Light Fighter Based on MiG-29 Jet: IDEX ...
    https://defence.pk › Pakistan Defence Forum › Country Watch › Arab Defence Forum

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    You can't simply convert a MiG-29 into a 5th generation stealth fighter. By the time you were done it would be an entirely new aircraft.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sintra View Post
    Mig did "zilch"... And yes, unless you believe that sudenly the ADLA, and the Luftwaffe, and the Flygvapnet, etc, are all going to acquire entirely foreign hardware, the pockets of severall European MODs do seem to be big enough to fund the development of such equipment, several of them have bigger pockets than the likes of Turkey or Korea.
    MIG is doing follow-up to MIG31. Entry date around 2028. That separate than MIG light 5G.

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    Quote Originally Posted by F/A-XX View Post
    You can't simply convert a MiG-29 into a 5th generation stealth fighter. By the time you were done it would be an entirely new aircraft.
    Sukhoi did it by morphing SU-30 into PAK-FA.
    MiG can do it by morphing MiG-29 into a Gen 5 for UAE.

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    France can't even afford electricity to light the lampposts where I live. I doubt they could fund even a 3rd gen fighter.

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    Also Middleastern investment shifting to Asia very quickly. EU can practically forget about any fighter development and without military power things will get alot harder in ecinomics.
    https://safeenergy.org/2015/05/14/th...nuclear-power/
    The accelerating decline of French nuclear power

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    Quote Originally Posted by F/A-XX View Post
    You can't simply convert a MiG-29 into a 5th generation stealth fighter. By the time you were done it would be an entirely new aircraft.
    Nope. Russia's whole design philosophy starts with something. That's the only way they do it.

    It is important to note that the Russian approach to development more than often differs from the Western approach, particularly that of the United States industry, with a much stronger Russian focus on risk management and risk minimisation. A powerful approach evident in the development of the Flanker family of aircraft has been, firstly, to plan long term, then to spread developmental risks across the series of planned new aircraft types and variants as well as parallel design/development activities. The benefits of such an approach are clearly obvious.

    No less importantly, the PAK-FA is by Western standards a low risk design, following the Russian philosophy of “evolutionary” design, rather than the “Big Bang” approach currently favoured in the West, of trying to start from scratch with most or every key portion of the design.

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    Quote Originally Posted by djcross View Post
    Sukhoi did it by morphing SU-30 into PAK-FA.
    MiG can do it by morphing MiG-29 into a Gen 5 for UAE.

    It is the Russian design philosophy.

    Plan long term, then spread developmental risks across the series of planned new aircraft types and variants as well as parallel design/development activities.

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    Quote Originally Posted by djcross View Post
    Sukhoi did it by morphing SU-30 into PAK-FA.
    MiG can do it by morphing MiG-29 into a Gen 5 for UAE.
    There´s not much more of the SU-30 on the PAK-FA with the exception of upgraded AL-31´s in the form of the AL-41F, and that for the first few dozens of aircrafts. And the way that the Mig-29 can be turned into a Fifth gen aircraft its be design an entirely new one.

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    Quote Originally Posted by KGB View Post
    Russia, UAE to collaborate on 5th-generation fighter - UPI.com
    www.upi.com › Defense News
    Feb 20, 2017 - The new light combat aircraft to be developed jointly by Russia and the United Arab Emirates is expected to be based on the legacy MiG-29.

    Russia, UAE To Develop Light Fighter Based on MiG-29 Jet: IDEX ...
    https://defence.pk › Pakistan Defence Forum › Country Watch › Arab Defence Forum
    Or in another words, the UAE is doing precisely what it did to EADS (remember the MAKO?), Dassault, Eurofighter and a few others. With the UAE untill a contract is signed and the first airframes are being delivered the chances are that the entire discussion will end in zero. This entire episode smells "lets put pressure on the Americans in order to get the F-35A" by some fifty miles.

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