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Thread: Turkey-Russia negotiating terms of S-400 Triumf sale

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    Turkey-Russia negotiating terms of S-400 Triumf sale

    Russia, Turkey Negotiating Deal on S-400 Missile Systems Purchase
    © Sputnik/ Sergei Malgavko
    MILITARY & INTELLIGENCE
    13:55 20.02.2017(updated 14:03 20.02.2017)
    https://sputniknews.com/military/201...00-deal-talks/

    Russia and Turkey are currently negotiating a deal concerning purchases of S-400 Triumf missile systems, Rostec CEO Sergei Chemezov said Monday.

    "The negotiations are underway, the question of financing is being discussed right now," Chemezov said.

    In service since 2007, the S-400 Triumf (NATO codename SA-21 Growler) is an anti-aircraft and anti-missile system capable of intercepting all types of modern air weaponry, including fifth-generation warplanes, as well as ballistic and cruise missiles at a maximum range of nearly 250 miles. The complex, comprising up to eight battalions, is reported to be capable of engaging up to 80 targets.

    The mobile long-range surface-to-air missile system has been designed to intercept electronic warfare airplanes, as well as early-warning and surveillance aircraft amid aggressive electronic jamming, the defense analyst said.
    The S-400 is equipped with four types of missiles, including the very-long-range 40N6, which is said to have an operational range of 400 km (nearly 250 miles), the long-range 48N6 missiles (250 km), the medium-range 9M96E2 missiles (120 km) and the short-range 9M96E (40 km).
    Numerous reports from various media outlets state that the news was made public at the IDEX fair in UAE. Turkey and Russia have been floating the idea for sometime now but no one knew the extent of the negotiations and the type of platform in discussion. It was previously thought Turkey was purchasing the S-300.

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    From "'Anyone threatening our air forces will be DESTROYED" (Putin) and "Turkey demonstrates it's solidarity with the terrorists." (Lavrov) to "Turkey-Russia negotiating terms of S-400 Triumf sale" in one year and two months!

    AH, geopolitics, "plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose"...

    And... Why do Turkey needs S400´s?! To fight whom?
    Last edited by Sintra; 21st February 2017 at 11:58.

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    The Jane's team at Idex hasn't reported this, so unless they do I would treat the Sputnik account with even more caution than one would normally apply to this rather questionable source. Procurement of the S-300 or S-400 would create the same sort of potential integration problems that Turkey's now-shelved plan to procure the Chinese HQ-9 had faced.
    Mercurius Cantabrigiensis

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sintra View Post
    And... Why do Turkey needs S400´s?! To fight whom?
    Well...maybe against its today's allies, who, many years later, may decide that Erdogan's regime isn't democratic enough and should be 'democratized' and replaced via another one "Freedom to " operation? Of course, it's, mostly, a joke, but...honestly - you never know, who may appear next, in the bombsights of the Golden Billion...woops, i mean...Free World.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sintra View Post
    From "'Anyone threatening our air forces will be DESTROYED" (Putin) and "Turkey demonstrates it's solidarity with the terrorists." (Lavrov) to "Turkey-Russia negotiating terms of S-400 Triumf sale" in one year and two months!

    AH, geopolitics, "plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose"...

    And... Why do Turkey needs S400´s?! To fight whom?
    Israel.

    Which bring out another theeses.
    With the good Russian-Israel relations, we could see S-400 in Israel at some point
    Last edited by haavarla; 21st February 2017 at 12:58.
    Thanks

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    Many news outlets are reporting this:

    http://www.israeldefense.co.il/en/node/27645
    https://www.almasdarnews.com/article...ns-s-400-deal/
    http://quwa.org/2017/02/01/turkey-re...00-sam-russia/

    Turkey does not foresee any integration issues with NATO as any long-range air defence system it procures will use the ASELSAN developed EIRS Long Range Radar. This is a condition of the T-LORAMIDS tender.



    Last edited by Bayar; 21st February 2017 at 13:19.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sintra View Post
    And... Why do Turkey needs S400´s?! To fight whom?
    To fight the evil communist you silly boy...
    Latencia Profecionalis

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    Quote Originally Posted by Scar View Post
    Well...maybe against its today's allies, who, many years later, may decide that Erdogan's regime isn't democratic enough and should be 'democratized' and replaced via another one "Freedom to " operation? Of course, it's, mostly, a joke, but...honestly - you never know, who may appear next, in the bombsights of the Golden Billion...woops, i mean...Free World.
    Dont quite remember NATO doing a "1956 Hungary" or "1968 Czechoslovakia" thingy on the past, invading their own "allies" is, oh, so "Soviet", but not particularly "Natish"... and taking into account that good old De Gaulle said "GTFU" ("G" is for get) to the Pentagon, Turkey invaded Cyprus, Portugal, Spain and Greece maintained dictatorships, etc, etc, etc, is pretty safe to assume that good old Erdogan´s is safe from a "Free World" military intervention.
    Last edited by Sintra; 21st February 2017 at 14:07.

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    Quote Originally Posted by haavarla View Post
    Israel.
    Why would Turkey and Israel get into a fight?

    Quote Originally Posted by haavarla View Post
    Which bring out another theeses.
    With the good Russian-Israel relations, we could see S-400 in Israel at some point
    S-400´s in Israeli colours? The chaps who receive four billion US$ a year from the Pentagon?
    It might be me and i might be entirely wrong, but i have a feeling in that case the Russians might has well pass directly the entire manual and specifications to the chaps at Nellis AFB...

    Cheers

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sintra View Post
    Dont quite remember NATO doing a "1968 Czechoslovakia" thingy on the past, invading their own "allies" is, oh, so "Soviet", but not particularly "Natish"... and taking into account that good old De Gaulle said "GTFU" ("G" is for get) to the Pentagon, Turkey invaded Cyprus, Portugal, Spain and Greece maintained dictatorships, etc, etc, etc, is pretty safe to assume that good old Erdogan´s is safe from a "Free World" military intervention.
    NATO caused Turkey's pivot to the East the moment they sought to overthrow Erdogan and began supporting the YPG in Syria.

    All these indicate that Turkey may be entertaining a military solution to the YPG moving towards statehood.
    Last edited by Bayar; 21st February 2017 at 14:09.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bayar View Post
    NATO caused Turkey's pivot to the East the moment they sought to overthrow Erdogan and began supporting the YPG in Syria.

    All these indicate that Turkey may be entertaining a military solution to the YPG moving towards statehood.
    Nato "sought to overthrow" Erdogan?!
    Thats news!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sintra View Post
    Nato "sought to overthrow" Erdogan?!
    Thats news!
    not just news, it's alternative news!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sintra View Post
    Why would Turkey and Israel get into a fight?



    S-400´s in Israeli colours? The chaps who receive four billion US$ a year from the Pentagon?
    It might be me and i might be entirely wrong, but i have a feeling in that case the Russians might has well pass directly the entire manual and specifications to the chaps at Nellis AFB...

    Cheers
    If that is the case, then Israel Military Aviation bransh can say goodbuy to every potencial customer out there.

    Case in point, take India. They bought Il-76 whom Israel converted or build the IAF AWACS on.
    If what you suggest is true, then Israel would ever never get another order.

    The Russian-Israel relationship has not been better in history i would say. Both countries support each other in problematic UN issues.
    They Co-Op very close in Middle-East it seems.
    Thanks

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    Quote Originally Posted by haavarla View Post
    If that is the case, then Israel Military Aviation bransh can say goodbuy to every potencial customer out there.

    Case in point, take India. They bought Il-76 whom Israel converted or build the IAF AWACS on.
    If what you suggest is true, then Israel would ever never get another order.
    No, India bought military kit from Israel, and they bought it fully aware that the specifications of that particular kit are known in the Pentagon and through NATO and Western countries, Israel tried to sold the exact same kit to severall of them (including Turkey by the way, the TAF went with Boeing for the AEW), only diference was a Airbus or Boeing Platform, and the radar on top of those Beriev´s was developed with the help of US money.
    Anyone that buys military hardware from IAI or any of the major Israeli firms is aware that the Americans and the rest of the Western Armed Forces have a very reliable idea of what the capabilities of that same kit are.
    What you are proposing is the exact oposite, Israel to acquire the latest Russian SAM system, in that case, might has well deliver the manual´s to the USAF chaps.

    Quote Originally Posted by haavarla View Post
    The Russian-Israel relationship has not been better in history i would say. Both countries support each other in problematic UN issues.
    They Co-Op very close in Middle-East it seems.
    I agree, its probably the best realtionship ever, but taking into acount that the "Russian-Israel relationship" for most of its history was composed of Soviet and Russian military hardware being used against Israel, its not that dificult...
    Last edited by Sintra; 21st February 2017 at 14:47.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sintra View Post
    Nato "sought to overthrow" Erdogan?!
    Thats news!
    Erdogan has purged every single Officer in its military the day after the coup attempt that had any ties to NATO. He immediately then apologised to Russia and subsequently met Mr. Putin at St Petersburg, signing a strategic partnership agreement. This only indicates that Erdogan believed NATO to be behind the attempt.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bayar View Post
    Erdogan has purged every single Officer in its military the day after the coup attempt that had any ties to NATO. He immediately then apologised to Russia and subsequently met Mr. Putin at St Petersburg, signing a strategic partnership agreement. This only indicates that Erdogan believed NATO to be behind the attempt.
    wrong; he purged officers that they suspected had any links to the Gulen organization. This indicates that Erdogan believes Gulen's organization was behind the coup attempt.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sintra View Post
    Dont quite remember NATO doing a "1956 Hungary" or "1968 Czechoslovakia" thingy on the past, invading their own "allies" is, oh, so "Soviet", but not particularly "Natish"...
    I never said Turkey will be an ally of NATO(i.e. US), at that given time. After all, “America has no permanent friends or enemies, only interests” (c) Henry Kissinger

    But, as i've said before - it was a joke, in its basis. I doubt Turkey will buy our SAMs in the foreseeable future.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sintra View Post
    Dont quite remember NATO doing a "1956 Hungary" or "1968 Czechoslovakia" thingy on the past, invading their own "allies" is, oh, so "Soviet", but not particularly "Natish"...
    You mean besides Iraq? And Libya? And Afghanistan?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sintra View Post
    Nato "sought to overthrow" Erdogan?!
    Thats news!
    That is one of the widespread versions floating around in Turkey. Most likely supported by the official narrative, as well.
    And frankly speaking, completely impossible it isn't.. There are elements within NATO which fear that Erdogan could turn to the "dark side".. Which is already happening as we speak.. (refer to the proposed S-400 sale)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sintra View Post
    Dont quite remember NATO doing a "1956 Hungary" or "1968 Czechoslovakia" thingy on the past, invading their own "allies" is, oh, so "Soviet", but not particularly "Natish"... and taking into account that good old De Gaulle said "GTFU" ("G" is for get) to the Pentagon, Turkey invaded Cyprus, Portugal, Spain and Greece maintained dictatorships, etc, etc, etc, is pretty safe to assume that good old Erdogan´s is safe from a "Free World" military intervention.
    There is "Russian Federation" and there was "Soviet Union".. just like there is "Bundesrepublik Deutschland" und there was "Drittes Reich".
    I beg to differ here..

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sintra View Post
    Why would Turkey and Israel get into a fight?
    Cheers
    Turkey used to buy Israel military equipment now Turkey will become competitor to Israeli equipment as both works in upgrade market and UAVs. Plus if Turkey has to enhance its creditionals it has to start fight with Israel. and in fight with Israel Russia equipment will become handy. Turkey is not that much in hurry in its own F35 buy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MSphere View Post
    There is "Russian Federation" and there was "Soviet Union".. just like there is "Bundesrepublik Deutschland" und there was "Drittes Reich".
    I beg to differ here..
    I didnt mentioned the "Russian Federation". I am not exactly expecting that Turkey and the Russian Federation become BFF´s, that wont happen, too much history under the bridge for that to happen overnight, but if you see my posts one year ago i was also one of those that said to a few of our Russian coleagues over here that no, Russia would not invade Turkey, and no, the Bosphorus was quite safe.
    Glad to see that Turkey and Russia are getting along, but no, unless something quite catastrophic happens, for thr foreseable future Turkey is not going to leave NATO.
    Last edited by Sintra; 21st February 2017 at 16:53.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rii View Post
    You mean besides Iraq? And Libya? And Afghanistan?
    Dont quite remember a) Iraq, Libya and Afghanistan being part of NATO and b) dont quite remember Iraq, Libya and Afghanistan being alieds of NATO, but i can remember things like Lockerbie, the Lybian invasion of Chade, the 9/11 and the invasion of Kuwait.
    Mind you i was one of those vociferously against Bush Junior Iraq folly.
    Last edited by Sintra; 21st February 2017 at 16:54.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Scar View Post
    I never said Turkey will be an ally of NATO(i.e. US), at that given time. After all, “America has no permanent friends or enemies, only interests” (c) Henry Kissinger

    But, as i've said before - it was a joke, in its basis. I doubt Turkey will buy our SAMs in the foreseeable future.
    Agree

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    Quote Originally Posted by MSphere View Post
    There is "Russian Federation" and there was "Soviet Union".. just like there is "Bundesrepublik Deutschland" und there was "Drittes Reich".
    I beg to differ here..
    Except Russian Federation is run by Soviet high ranking apparatchik KGB colonel .Imagine Bundesrepublik Deutschland run by Heinrich Müller.
    Can you name any Bundesrepublik Deutschland leader connected to Nazi regime?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sintra View Post
    Dont quite remember a) Iraq, Libya and Afghanistan being part of NATO and b) dont quite remember Iraq, Libya and Afghanistan being alieds of NATO, but i can remember things like Lockerbie, the Lybian invasion of Chade, the 9/11 and the invasion of Kuwait.
    Mind you i was one of those vociferously against Bush Junior Iraq folly.
    My words exactly

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    Quote Originally Posted by haavarla View Post
    Israel.

    Which bring out another theeses.
    With the good Russian-Israel relations, we could see S-400 in Israel at some point


    Quote Originally Posted by Sintra View Post
    No, India bought military kit from Israel, and they bought it fully aware that the specifications of that particular kit are known in the Pentagon and through NATO and Western countries, Israel tried to sold the exact same kit to severall of them (including Turkey by the way, the TAF went with Boeing for the AEW), only diference was a Airbus or Boeing Platform, and the radar on top of those Beriev´s was developed with the help of US money.
    Anyone that buys military hardware from IAI or any of the major Israeli firms is aware that the Americans and the rest of the Western Armed Forces have a very reliable idea of what the capabilities of that same kit are.
    What you are proposing is the exact oposite, Israel to acquire the latest Russian SAM system, in that case, might has well deliver the manual´s to the USAF chaps.



    I agree, its probably the best realtionship ever, but taking into acount that the "Russian-Israel relationship" for most of its history was composed of Soviet and Russian military hardware being used against Israel, its not that dificult...

    The bottom line is that unless they get joint projects funded by a foreign nation, why in the world would Israel need to look outside its own industry for a capable air defense system? Given their current threat, it would seem they have their bases quite nicely covered when it comes to cruise and ballistic missile defense with their current, or in development systems such as the Iron Dome, David's Sling and Arrow (supported through US MDA's budget). Even if we totally ignore the geopolitics of this, why in the world would they need to buy an S400? If a capability requirement is defined, they can respond using their own industrial base or using a mechanism within their current US relationship and assistance.
    Last edited by bring_it_on; 21st February 2017 at 17:55.
    Old radar types never die; they just phased array

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    Quote Originally Posted by bring_it_on View Post
    Even if we totally ignore the geopolitics of this, why in the world would they need to buy an S400?
    Acquire one battery to study the thing in order to evade and/or destroy "less than friendly ones out there"?
    In terms of Israel needing it for its self defense, the need is zero.

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    The demographic and financial changes in US will make Israel look for other allied as it can't maintain its qualititive edge without external support. The problem is Israel does not have anything to offer to Russia that it will sell better weopons that it will sell to others.

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    Quote Originally Posted by alfawhiskeyrome View Post
    Except Russian Federation is run by Soviet high ranking apparatchik KGB colonel .Imagine Bundesrepublik Deutschland run by Heinrich Müller. Can you name any Bundesrepublik Deutschland leader connected to Nazi regime?
    Nothing new here.. From 1949 to 1973, 90 of the 170 leading lawyers and judges in the then-West German Justice Ministry had been members of the Nazi Party, 34 of those members of the SA (Sturmabteilung). In 1957, 77% of the ministry’s senior officials were former Nazis, a higher proportion that during Hitler’s Third Reich government..

    http://www.businessinsider.sg/former...A7wWWBxzhH3.97

    Besides that, I am not aware of KGB having ever been accused of war crimes or anything remotely similar.. By that logic it's no better or worse than CIA or any other intelligence service in the world.
    Last edited by MSphere; 21st February 2017 at 19:25.

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