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Thread: Mig-29s for Argentine Air Force?

  1. #1
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    Mig-29s for Argentine Air Force?


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    poor choice

    Flankers would be better for them


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    The replacement of the Mirage has been put on hold due to the economic situation in Argentina.
    History and Military Technology blog

    alejandro-8en.blogspot.com

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    With current RUB-USD exchange rate there probably isn't a cheaper new-built fighter on the market than the MiG-29 (with the exception of FC-1).

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    while it is obviously a step up from a 60 years old design, it looks terribly short-legged for the nation of that size, as Y-20 Bacon said, a better choice would be a fighter from Su-27 series
    Last edited by TooCool_12f; 17th February 2017 at 15:13.

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    With the budget of the Fuerza Aerea Argentina, the range of something like a Flanker would be roughly equivalent to the size of the Hangar in wich it would stay...

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    lol.
    their AF is in a tight financial spot, how about F-5 ?
    that is one cheap mofo to operate, or perhaps F-50
    the missile will require about five times the G capability of the target to complete a successful intercept.
    -Robert L Shaw

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    Quote Originally Posted by obligatory View Post
    lol.
    their AF is in a tight financial spot, how about F-5 ?
    that is one cheap mofo to operate, or perhaps F-50
    If they want western equipment, then second hand Vipers or the F/A-50 (or the israeli Kfirs, but that is called "desperation"), if the Argies dont have their mind set on a western system, the JF-17 might be a good alternative. The rest, well, forget it.

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    Deja-Vu, an article on a defence Blog that refers to a Russian news aggregation website with zero corroboration from official sources in Argentina....this is the Su-24 nonsense all over again but with the Mig-29. No doubt the British tabloid press will bite and we will be subjected to multiple nonsense articles about the new threat to the Falklands.

    Argentina is retiring their Skyhawk next year and it is increasingly looking without replacement. The IA-63 Pampa and the new T-6 Texan II if delivered will allow Argentina to keep a foot in the door for restoring that capability in the future but until I see a picture of an official signing of a Letter of Intent by Argentine officials for any kind of fast jet I won't even humour another silly rumour.
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  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fedaykin View Post
    Deja-Vu, an article on a defence Blog that refers to a Russian news aggregation website with zero corroboration from official sources in Argentina....this is the Su-24 nonsense all over again but with the Mig-29. No doubt the British tabloid press will bite and we will be subjected to multiple nonsense articles about the new threat to the Falklands.

    Argentina is retiring their Skyhawk next year and it is increasingly looking without replacement. The IA-63 Pampa and the new T-6 Texan II if delivered will allow Argentina to keep a foot in the door for restoring that capability in the future but until I see a picture of an official signing of a Letter of Intent by Argentine officials for any kind of fast jet I won't even humour another silly rumour.
    Well Fed, for one, I absolutely believe that the new MiG fighter force of the Argies would definitely represent an imminent and mortal threat to the Falkland Islands. 🙄

    Most especially if that 'mortal threat' pursuades the somewhat easily led U.K. electorate to push for greater defence spending!. If I was MoD I'd be trying to find a way of discretely funding a MiG sales tour to Argentina. We need some photos of MiGs at Tierra del Fuego appearing in the Daily Mail and Sun to get the torches and pitchforks really stirred up

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jonesy View Post
    Well Fed, for one, I absolutely believe that the new MiG fighter force of the Argies would definitely represent an imminent and mortal threat to the Falkland Islands. ��

    Most especially if that 'mortal threat' pursuades the somewhat easily led U.K. electorate to push for greater defence spending!. If I was MoD I'd be trying to find a way of discretely funding a MiG sales tour to Argentina. We need some photos of MiGs at Tierra del Fuego appearing in the Daily Mail and Sun to get the torches and pitchforks really stirred up
    Point taken.
    Argentina, will still have to rely on light CAS, Transport/cargo, and Helios capabilities for this decade. Might see some fast jets.. in the next decade.

    These wish lists, keep resurface every year it seems.
    Thanks

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    Unfortunately, this time, there was substance to that deliriuos and stupid idea, by the highest voices in the MINDEF. The said: "We needed to look at options, so we looked everywere, and for this year 2017, the needed fighter selection has been put on hold. We have adquired (actual verb usage, as in a certainty) 12x Texans IIs, 4x C-295, and a C-130. A4-AR will be phased out by 2022."

    In my forum we became extremely angry at the stupidity of even considering the MiGs as a valid system, and spending money on sending personel to evalute whatever.

    By the Way, since this is month 2 of the year 1 under the Macri adnministration budget, the Armed Forces have increased their share of GDP% spending from 0,40% to 0,95%. By 2019 the proyection calls for 2,20% GDP, which is quite substancial. In U$D FY17 we are looking at U$D 6,080,000,000 for this year, when 2016 under the f.....g kirchners cleptocracy it was U$D 2,430,000,000. The proyection is for FY17 U$D 14,000,000,000 in 2019.

    Make no mistake, we need basically everything. Good thing we already paid Beretta for the 100,000 ARX-200 and 120,000 M-9s, and the factory to make them.

    Cheers.

    EDIT: By the way, Macri has a FA-50 model in his presidential office.
    EDIT2: I understand it was a very nice phone call with Pence and later with Trump. Macri and DJMT have been doing deals since the 80's.
    EDIT3: Get it off your heads. Soviet (russian) or chinese equipment is utter fantasy down here. Will never happen.
    EDIT4: We don't have oficial papers on the T6-C+ Texans IIs, other than the program runs for U$D 300,000,000 and estipulates 24 airplanes initialy.
    Last edited by Buitreaux; 17th February 2017 at 23:26.

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    If Argentina won't consider Chinese aircraft because "we are a western nation, lol" then that simply demonstrates that Argentina doesn't need any combat aircraft.
    Brief and powerless is Man's life; on him and all his race the slow sure doom falls pitiless and dark.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rii View Post
    If Argentina won't consider Chinese aircraft because "we are a western nation, lol" then that simply demonstrates that Argentina doesn't need any combat aircraft.
    JF-17 was considered but they wanted Israeli weapons & avionics, and it would have got quite expensive.
    AIUI, one big hurdle is that they want a partner to promote Pampas abroad. That is one thing which held back Kfir deal. But cold hard truth is that advanced jet trainer market is very cluttered already...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rii View Post
    If Argentina won't consider Chinese aircraft because "we are a western nation, lol" then that simply demonstrates that Argentina doesn't need any combat aircraft.
    You are the best Rii. Can I be like you when I grow up? Please?

    Get serious.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Buitreaux View Post
    Get serious.
    I am serious, and I would say the same of Australia's RAAF if we were ever in that position: say, if all of Europe has collapsed into an industrial black hole and the USA no longer produces anything under 25-tons/$200m (circumstances that are unlikely, but not inconceivable). If you won't consider a platform that is clearly "best fit" in terms of capabilities/cost simply because it doesn't fit with your cultural conceptions, then it's clear the need isn't that urgent in the first place.
    Last edited by Rii; 18th February 2017 at 00:35.
    Brief and powerless is Man's life; on him and all his race the slow sure doom falls pitiless and dark.

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    Why not the Teja?

    - It has the Israel avionics and a fine overall good set of performances.
    - One inherent benefits of the lengthy design schedule is that upgrades will remain available with retrofit on airframe during a considerable period of time easing decision process (see the 2052 radar that would have to fit on the 2032 back-end).
    - The Ar industry would have also a competitive stature to negotiate offsets and future prog involvement.
    - It has a reliable engine that proved itself extensively over sea
    - it comes cheap and packed with a lot of stuffs.
    Last edited by TomcatViP; 18th February 2017 at 01:35.

  18. #18
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    It's also unproven and unavailable. Five years from now, might be a different story.
    Brief and powerless is Man's life; on him and all his race the slow sure doom falls pitiless and dark.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rii View Post
    If Argentina won't consider Chinese aircraft because "we are a western nation, lol" then that simply demonstrates that Argentina doesn't need any combat aircraft.
    There are important influences on Chinese aircraft from Russia and Israel (A country with practically 100% political and scientific class from Russia empire area). I don't see how they become Chinese .

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    I have in mind that the IAF won't bother letting a dozen of MkI out of their hands if that open a Foreign order.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TomcatViP View Post
    I have in mind that the IAF won't bother letting a dozen of MkI out of their hands if that open a Foreign order.
    India is already moving on to the Mk1A as I understand it, which is hardly a vote of confidence for the Mk1's export future.
    http://img818.imageshack.us/img818/9098/rsz11rsz3807.jpg

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    If you guys are talking about the MKI, then forget it.

    India like China can't export Sukhoi's.

    They can re-sell them back to Russia, and then it can be re-sold to third buyer. Just as the Su-30KN or what ever its called.
    Thanks

  23. #23
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    Teja MK1 A

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    Quote Originally Posted by haavarla View Post
    If you guys are talking about the MKI, then forget it.
    India like China can't export Sukhoi's.
    They can re-sell them back to Russia, and then it can be re-sold to third buyer. Just as the Su-30KN or what ever its called.
    They were talking about Tejas Mk1, not Su-30MKI. IAF has not enough Sukhois to satisfy their on needs, let alone start selling them..

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by TomcatViP View Post
    Why not the Teja?

    - It has the Israel avionics and a fine overall good set of performances.
    - One inherent benefits of the lengthy design schedule is that upgrades will remain available with retrofit on airframe during a considerable period of time easing decision process (see the 2052 radar that would have to fit on the 2032 back-end).
    - The Ar industry would have also a competitive stature to negotiate offsets and future prog involvement.
    - It has a reliable engine that proved itself extensively over sea
    - it comes cheap and packed with a lot of stuffs.
    Argentina needs range, its a big country. Tejas (or Texas) is short legged.
    More importantly, it needs political support. I don't think Russia cares if the argentinians decide to use it on the British, or will they cave into British Pressure.

    since we're on the subject of the LCA.. what is it's real status?

    news seems to imply. Indian Navy will not order Tejas and wants a new single engined jet (does this mean all Naval Tejas is gone?)
    and what of IAF?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Y-20 Bacon View Post
    Argentina needs range, its a big country. Tejas (or Texas) is short legged.
    Even before range, they need Fighter jets.

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    I still think they should have looked harder at Mirage F1's as a stop gap and if they could find 12 to 16 good ones they still should as it keeps pace with other types in the region for the next 10 to 15 years

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    Quote Originally Posted by TomcatViP View Post
    Why not the Teja?

    - It has the Israel avionics and a fine overall good set of performances.
    - One inherent benefits of the lengthy design schedule is that upgrades will remain available with retrofit on airframe during a considerable period of time easing decision process (see the 2052 radar that would have to fit on the 2032 back-end).
    - The Ar industry would have also a competitive stature to negotiate offsets and future prog involvement.
    - It has a reliable engine that proved itself extensively over sea
    - it comes cheap and packed with a lot of stuffs.
    Nooooo just No, considering the farce that is the Tejas program the idea that anybody would be interested in buying them is a mute point.

    Can this not turn into yet another Indian defence procurement thread bun fight!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tempest414 View Post
    I still think they should have looked harder at Mirage F1's as a stop gap and if they could find 12 to 16 good ones they still should as it keeps pace with other types in the region for the next 10 to 15 years
    I like the F1. It would have been a good choice. But the french are selling them for to much money. I am guessing that they don't want to compete with themselves (rafale).

    \\Dan
    Latencia Profecionalis

  30. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buitreaux View Post
    Unfortunately, this time, there was substance to that deliriuos and stupid idea, by the highest voices in the MINDEF. The said: "We needed to look at options, so we looked everywere, and for this year 2017, the needed fighter selection has been put on hold. We have adquired (actual verb usage, as in a certainty) 12x Texans IIs, 4x C-295, and a C-130. A4-AR will be phased out by 2022."

    In my forum we became extremely angry at the stupidity of even considering the MiGs as a valid system, and spending money on sending personel to evalute whatever.

    By the Way, since this is month 2 of the year 1 under the Macri adnministration budget, the Armed Forces have increased their share of GDP% spending from 0,40% to 0,95%. By 2019 the proyection calls for 2,20% GDP, which is quite substancial. In U$D FY17 we are looking at U$D 6,080,000,000 for this year, when 2016 under the f.....g kirchners cleptocracy it was U$D 2,430,000,000. The proyection is for FY17 U$D 14,000,000,000 in 2019.

    Make no mistake, we need basically everything. Good thing we already paid Beretta for the 100,000 ARX-200 and 120,000 M-9s, and the factory to make them.

    Cheers.

    EDIT: By the way, Macri has a FA-50 model in his presidential office.
    EDIT2: I understand it was a very nice phone call with Pence and later with Trump. Macri and DJMT have been doing deals since the 80's.
    EDIT3: Get it off your heads. Soviet (russian) or chinese equipment is utter fantasy down here. Will never happen.
    EDIT4: We don't have oficial papers on the T6-C+ Texans IIs, other than the program runs for U$D 300,000,000 and estipulates 24 airplanes initialy.
    Thanks Buitreaux as always a solid insight into what is actually happening within Argentina, her armed forces and defence sector.

    Looking through what you have written the Macri government appears to be really trying to sort out the mess that the Kirchner government left and actually make some decisions. Are they making any progress routing out the La-Campora hanger-on's placed all through government departments and the defence industry and weeding out the older personnel in the military taking a wage and filling up offices doing little actual valuable work who should have been pensioned off years ago?!

    12x Texans IIs, 4x C-295, and a C-130 is a really solid start that should be commended. The Texan II's are particularly interesting as it is in effect an admission that the next generation Pampa project is a waste of time (it should be noted that the Texan II and Ia-63 Pampa were marketed in the same class for the US trainer contest that the former won out). 4 shiny new C-295 and an extra C-130 must be welcome to Argentine transport squadrons!

    Interesting to see 2022 for a final OSD for the A4-AR considering they were talking about next year. Is it going to be like the last Mirage in service, a token force of 4 - 6 just to maintain some form of QRA and canibilising the rest of the fleet for spares?

    Looking to the future the FA-50 is increasingly imho the best choice, affordable, modern and available at an attractive price. With tanker support range is not particularly an issue. It's modern avionics and Israeli radar open the door to better smart munitions and even a BVR missile of some form.

    I can see improvements in Ground radar and C4i being another priority if Argentina wants to make proper use of any new jet.

    As a firearms enthusiast the Beretta deal is interesting, is this again a result of the Macri government actually getting on with things? A factory to boot in the deal has potential for regional contracts. The army must be delighted about actually getting some new rifles

    In respect of the improved US Argentina relationship there are various excess defence articles that would be of interest to Argentina for, example more C-130, P-3, various helicopters and ships. Maybe some KC-135?
    Last edited by Fedaykin; 18th February 2017 at 14:03.
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