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Thread: Best 4.5 gen fighter

  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by obligatory View Post
    the video didnt support KGB, on contrary he said that while the teen fighters had a small window of opportunity
    to nail an F-22, if the F-22 pilot was rookie, but the same pilots had an easy time doing an Su-30 in.

    a few interesting quotes from that officer: F-22 can maintain 28 degree at 20k ft,
    while F-15 can maintain 15 degree. the jammer coupled with mig-21 inherent low RCS made amraam useless
    and the teens had to resort to guns, but su-30 was so large RCS so jamming couldnt mask it.

    in previous exercises the indians had sent their best pilots and did very well against US fighters,
    but when they sent their average pilots they didnt stand a chance.

    the russian engines required so much maintenance so the indians didnt actually qualify to participate in red flag,
    but it was overcome by sending up su-30 first so they wouldnt keep the runway busy for others,
    which was fine since su-30 has such a large tank so it works out
    I think you should look at the Vid one more time..

    There exist no evidence what so ever that the MKI had any problem service wise at Red Flag.
    He talked about the Indians not want to risk nick their Hi/low Comp fans at take-off. They was a long way from home base. Didn't have any spare engines with them.
    They had to get most value out of each fighter, pilots and ground crew at Nellis. They can't do that if one of the engines get FOD damage and jet get parked during the whole exercies.
    Its quite expensive as well going to red Flag. IAF paid over $80mill for the whole Red Flag deployment.

    In short, IAF wanted most bang for their bucks. Hense they took some percations on the take-off's.
    Last edited by haavarla; 16th February 2017 at 12:12.
    Thanks

  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by wellerocks View Post
    It's fantastic to see how the Russians underestimate the Gripen. Would come as a nasty surprise if, God forbid, a conflict were to break out.
    Prove otherwise
    Let me remind you, Gripen lost in the Indian tender
    Last edited by paralay; 16th February 2017 at 14:54.

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by MSphere View Post
    Best A-A: definitely something that employs the METEOR.
    F-15? No chance..
    hmm actually rather than Typhoon, might be Rafale instead.. unlike Typhoon it already has the full Meteor and AESA set in operation and more political will to develop it (Typhoon has a lot of nice whatifs). Rafale also has the range.

  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by paralay View Post
    Prove otherwise
    Let me remind you, Gripen lost in the Indian tender ALL "average" fighter
    Except; it didn't. And you have nothing to prove it with because no official IAF documents have been released with the decisions of the MMRCA. However; statements from Indian sources involved with the work [as seen on livefist] stated that SAAB, unlike Dassault and EADS, were unable to give sufficient proof that the Gripen 39IN would be able to carry nuclear weaponry or house an AESA radar. Dassault barely made the shortlist by putting a styrofoam replica of the planned AESA in its nose. The same source claimed the Gripen would've been shortlisted IF it had shown capability to incorporate an AESA + Nuclear armed missile. The MiG-35 was way further back in the selection process of the MMRCA despite being a logical choice for India as they already had the MiG-29 in its inventory Despite Russias [and the Manufacturers] claims that it's affordable and the best fighter in the world, India failed to see its charm, both in the MMRCA and the newly made lightweight fighter competition

    To underestimate the Gripen is something of a general notion going around.

    Switzerland: Deemed that Gripen upgrades were unsatisfactory in terms of reliability [all of which have been realized as of today in the Swedish 39E package] and had its performance downsized by a factor of 1.3.
    Yet, despite having the score downgraded, managed to not only meet the satisfactory levels of performance but still come out as a good choice.

    India: Didn't manage to meet the demands of the MMRCA [at the time], but is today the strongest alternative in the competition to complement the Tejas and the MMRCA [Rafale].

    Brazil: FAB favored the Gripen over both the Rafale and the Super Bug [in terms of cost/efficiency/capabilities/needs of the FAB] whilst Lula opted for the Rafale in terms of political ties with France [i.e. Bribes]. It wasn't until Dilma went into office that the FAB had their say in the decision and resulted in the choice of the Gripen.


    Ofcourse the Gripen has its drawbacks, it's not the perfect fighter for every country nor is it the perfect fighter for all situations. It lacks two engines, heavy ordenence, international fame, range with a large strike payload, it lacks political back-up from Sweden and it is relying on permission from the US to sell it. It is however THE leading fighter in areas of cost/performance, No TVC manueverability, aerodynamic low-drag design and low signature [RCS/IR] for 4.5gen fighters (Gripen A had an RCS of 0,1m2 in official verified documents released by FMV, and each evolution A -> C -> E has only recieved more signature reducing measures of which Gripen E will recieve the biggest leap yet. The MiG-35 doesn't even come close no matter how far Russian propaganda wants to spin the MiG-35.

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by wellerocks View Post
    Except; it didn't. And you have nothing to prove it with because no official IAF documents have been released with the decisions of the MMRCA. However; statements from Indian sources involved with the work [as seen on livefist] stated that SAAB, unlike Dassault and EADS, were unable to give sufficient proof that the Gripen 39IN would be able to carry nuclear weaponry or house an AESA radar. Dassault barely made the shortlist by putting a styrofoam replica of the planned AESA in its nose. The same source claimed the Gripen would've been shortlisted IF it had shown capability to incorporate an AESA + Nuclear armed missile. The MiG-35 was way further back in the selection process of the MMRCA despite being a logical choice for India as they already had the MiG-29 in its inventory Despite Russias [and the Manufacturers] claims that it's affordable and the best fighter in the world, India failed to see its charm, both in the MMRCA and the newly made lightweight fighter competition

    To underestimate the Gripen is something of a general notion going around.

    Switzerland: Deemed that Gripen upgrades were unsatisfactory in terms of reliability [all of which have been realized as of today in the Swedish 39E package] and had its performance downsized by a factor of 1.3.
    Yet, despite having the score downgraded, managed to not only meet the satisfactory levels of performance but still come out as a good choice.

    India: Didn't manage to meet the demands of the MMRCA [at the time], but is today the strongest alternative in the competition to complement the Tejas and the MMRCA [Rafale].

    Brazil: FAB favored the Gripen over both the Rafale and the Super Bug [in terms of cost/efficiency/capabilities/needs of the FAB] whilst Lula opted for the Rafale in terms of political ties with France [i.e. Bribes]. It wasn't until Dilma went into office that the FAB had their say in the decision and resulted in the choice of the Gripen.


    Ofcourse the Gripen has its drawbacks, it's not the perfect fighter for every country nor is it the perfect fighter for all situations. It lacks two engines, heavy ordenence, international fame, range with a large strike payload, it lacks political back-up from Sweden and it is relying on permission from the US to sell it. It is however THE leading fighter in areas of cost/performance, No TVC manueverability, aerodynamic low-drag design and low signature [RCS/IR] for 4.5gen fighters (Gripen A had an RCS of 0,1m2 in official verified documents released by FMV, and each evolution A -> C -> E has only recieved more signature reducing measures of which Gripen E will recieve the biggest leap yet. The MiG-35 doesn't even come close no matter how far Russian propaganda wants to spin the MiG-35.
    er, basically, in Indias MMRCA contest Gripen was not shortlisted, thus it lost on technical grounds. Today it may have a chance to get back as Tejas replacement, more or less, meaning a light single engine fighter (which it really is, in fact)

    In Switzerland, it was dead last any way you look at it. The only thing where it was better was price. It was selected by politicians who, basically said: "for what we need, that sum will be enough".. but, basically, they conducted a competition where they wanted to replace a Porsche 911 by something better. They got propositions from two supercars and a WV bug... politicians chose the bug (barely caricatural here, I admit )

    In Brasil, once more, it is its price that got it chosen, nothing else

  6. #66
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    Thread title says fighter. If you're talking purely air-air, Typhoon. /thread.

    If you mean multirole, either Rafale or SU30 at the moment, though Typhoon will be on par with both in the not too distant future. (with each obviously having their respective strengths) If you mean interceptor, then again, Typhoon.

  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by wellerocks View Post
    (Gripen A had an RCS of 0,1m2 in official verified documents released by FMV...
    Name:  1440143878_V9QB.jpg
Views: 518
Size:  58.8 KB


    EF-2000 domestic motor + domestic missiles
    Rafale domestic motor + domestic missiles
    MiG-35 domestic motor + domestic missiles
    Gripen foreign motor + foreign missiles

    Findings "combat potential" built on the calculation, it not propaganda
    Last edited by paralay; 16th February 2017 at 16:55.

  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by Al. View Post
    Black cars are best
    Well, beautifull undoutebly, but they get all dirty...

  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sintra View Post
    Well, beautifull undoutebly, but they get all dirty...
    naysayer
    Rule zero: don't be on fire

  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by TooCool_12f View Post
    er, basically, in Indias MMRCA contest Gripen was not shortlisted, thus it lost on technical grounds. Today it may have a chance to get back as Tejas replacement, more or less, meaning a light single engine fighter (which it really is, in fact)

    In Switzerland, it was dead last any way you look at it. The only thing where it was better was price. It was selected by politicians who, basically said: "for what we need, that sum will be enough".. but, basically, they conducted a competition where they wanted to replace a Porsche 911 by something better. They got propositions from two supercars and a WV bug... politicians chose the bug (barely caricatural here, I admit )

    In Brasil, once more, it is its price that got it chosen, nothing else
    SAAB was selling Gripen E for the MMRCA. It was not available in 2011, and India wanted quick availability.
    No surprise it was not shortlisted.
    It is not replacing Tejas, it is complementing it (if selected).
    Now it is replacing Rafale to get the numbers up,

    Switzerland compared Gripen C vs competition. They selected Gripen E.
    In Brazil, the Rafale did not provide enough bang for the buck, and the US screwed up by spying.

  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by APRichelieu View Post
    SAAB was selling Gripen E for the MMRCA. It was not available in 2011, and India wanted quick availability.
    India? Quick availability? lol

    Switzerland compared Gripen C vs competition. They selected Gripen E.
    They compared the versions tested and in round 2 they compared proposed evolutions, including what would turn out to be the Gripen E.

    In Brazil, the Rafale did not provide enough bang for the buck, and the US screwed up by spying.
    In Brazil they didn't have enough buck to get the bang.

    Nic

  12. #72
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    In Brazil they didn't have enough buck to get the bang.

    Nic

    apparently the former president assessed brazils economy as sufficient to buy rafale,
    he even went as far as proclaiming rafale had won and would be bought.

    for some reason, probably a lingering bribe investigation, he decided to back off and defer the decision to next government, whom decided to hand over the decision to the industry, whom favored gripen
    the missile will require about five times the G capability of the target to complete a successful intercept.
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  13. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by garryA View Post
    I really don't see how that video supports your point. At around 6:20 he literally said their F-15 unit dominate Su-30 in close combat. Language barriers?. Moreover, India doesn't have Typhoon, Gripen, F-15, F-16 or F-18 either, probably didn't even have rafale at that time
    Let me make sure its the right video but he does say that the su 30 was dancing with the Raptor.

    Then he just says"our better pilots" fought "them again. Then we kicked their a$$ brah"

    So the Raptor is a lesser trained pilot away from being in trouble against a su 30 and this is somehow a vindication for the Raptor ? I think it speaks volumes for the abilities of the su 30 and 35.
    Last edited by KGB; 17th February 2017 at 02:04.

  14. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by obligatory View Post
    the video didnt support KGB, on contrary he said that while the teen fighters had a small window of opportunity
    to nail an F-22, if the F-22 pilot was rookie, but the same pilots had an easy time doing an Su-30 in.

    a few interesting quotes from that officer: F-22 can maintain 28 degree at 20k ft,
    while F-15 can maintain 15 degree. the jammer coupled with mig-21 inherent low RCS made amraam useless
    and the teens had to resort to guns, but su-30 was so large RCS so jamming couldnt mask it.

    in previous exercises the indians had sent their best pilots and did very well against US fighters,
    but when they sent their average pilots they didnt stand a chance.

    the russian engines required so much maintenance so the indians didnt actually qualify to participate in red flag,
    but it was overcome by sending up su-30 first so they wouldnt keep the runway busy for others,
    which was fine since su-30 has such a large tank so it works out
    Here Obligitory repeats his false and tiring talking points about Russian engines.

    Western observers had a keen eye on the operation in Syria to see just that. To see if Russia would have engine problems. None of the sort. Jets are getting put though the ringer with no engine problems at all.

  15. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by j_jza80 View Post
    Thread title says fighter. If you're talking purely air-air, Typhoon. /thread.

    If you mean multirole, either Rafale or SU30 at the moment, though Typhoon will be on par with both in the not too distant future. (with each obviously having their respective strengths) If you mean interceptor, then again, Typhoon.
    Why are you so confident that the Typhoon could beat the su 35 ai to air ?

  16. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by obligatory View Post
    In Brazil they didn't have enough buck to get the bang.

    Nic

    apparently the former president assessed brazils economy as sufficient to buy rafale,
    he even went as far as proclaiming rafale had won and would be bought.

    for some reason, probably a lingering bribe investigation, he decided to back off and defer the decision to next government, whom decided to hand over the decision to the industry, whom favored gripen
    Brazil is sitting on 300+ billion in forex reserves.

  17. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by KGB View Post
    Let me make sure its the right video but he does say that the su 30 was dancing with the Raptor.

    Then he just says"our better pilots" fought "them again. Then we kicked their a$$ brah"

    So the Raptor is a lesser trained pilot away from being in trouble against a su 30 and this is somehow a vindication for the Raptor ? I think it speaks volumes for the abilities of the su 30 and 35.
    I don't want to be mean but both you and OP really need to learn English properly
    The general said when US does those exercise with India in the past, they only sent their operational pilot with not alot of experience while India often sent their best. So India was able to win more time in close combat. However, when they used pilots with similar experience level, US side was able to dominate with F-15 carrying fuel tank while Su-30 is in clean configuration ( not that i buy what he said but if you think this video even remotely close to support your point then ......well i have no word ".
    He did talk about an inexperience Raptor pilot being in trouble in close combat, but it is not against Su-30 but rather against F-15/F-16 in their own exercrise , he even mentioned that how they developed tactics against TVC opponents
    Last edited by garryA; 17th February 2017 at 03:34.

  18. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by obligatory View Post
    In Brazil they didn't have enough buck to get the bang.

    Nic

    apparently the former president assessed brazils economy as sufficient to buy rafale,
    he even went as far as proclaiming rafale had won and would be bought.

    for some reason, probably a lingering bribe investigation, he decided to back off and defer the decision to next government, whom decided to hand over the decision to the industry, whom favored gripen
    I'd take care about bribing during Brazil competition if i were you... SAAB is in a quite bad scandal there... Involving Lula and his son...

  19. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by halloweene View Post
    I'd take care about bribing during Brazil competition if i were you... SAAB is in a quite bad scandal there... Involving Lula and his son...
    So SAAB is accused to have bribed Lula to buy the Rafale, which he publicly supported?

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    or maybe just to "change his mind", not buy and let the next government do the opposite?

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    the fact that he supported rafale and went as far as proclaiming it a winner even before evaluation was
    over still points toward dassault bribe, dont you think ?
    the missile will require about five times the G capability of the target to complete a successful intercept.
    -Robert L Shaw

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    Quote Originally Posted by TooCool_12f View Post
    or maybe just to "change his mind", not buy and let the next government do the opposite?
    The prosecutor refers to the bankrupcy of SAAB as the reason for the bribe.
    He is not aware of the difference between SAAB, the car company, and SAAB, the defense company.
    They split up a long time ago, and it was the car company that went **** up.

  23. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by APRichelieu View Post
    The prosecutor refers to the bankrupcy of SAAB as the reason for the bribe.
    If so, the guy´s an idiot!

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    I knew someone would com to a Godwin Point (bribes), but the example is hilarious. (i) there were politicla and strategic reasons for Lula support to Rafale. (ii) SAAB bribed Lula's son... Last year... So many years after SAAB's bankrupcy.

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    ...So: you maintain that SAAB has bribed Lula & family members to buy Rafale ?
    its odd to me, but, whatever floats your boat, and it was a failed bribe anyway,
    Lula just cashed in and dropped the agenda
    the missile will require about five times the G capability of the target to complete a successful intercept.
    -Robert L Shaw

  26. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by garryA View Post
    I don't want to be mean but both you and OP really need to learn English properly
    The general said when US does those exercise with India in the past, they only sent their operational pilot with not alot of experience while India often sent their best. So India was able to win more time in close combat. However, when they used pilots with similar experience level, US side was able to dominate with F-15 carrying fuel tank while Su-30 is in clean configuration ( not that i buy what he said but if you think this video even remotely close to support your point then ......well i have no word ".
    He did talk about an inexperience Raptor pilot being in trouble in close combat, but it is not against Su-30 but rather against F-15/F-16 in their own exercrise , he even mentioned that how they developed tactics against TVC opponents
    You dress up your partisan bickering as a language error to make other ppl look bad. Then you sneak in a reference about the F 15 when you know that the guy is comparing the F 22 to the su 30. Not the F 15.

    The USAF Col. in the video get into detail, with hand gestures and a video reference about su 30 vs Raptor.

    We have a USAF col on the record saying that the export version su 30 (not 35) can do anything that the Raptor (not F 15) at an airshow yet we are questioning what aircraft is the best 4.5 gen ?

    And I know airshows are not everything. But it still speaks volumes of the su 30 and 35.

    But then garryA goes on about fuel tanks, better pilots and tactics blah blah blah. Better pilots ? Ok. The de-rated su 30 was dancing with the Raptor. If you want to talk better pilots, how about we take Russia's best pilots in their su 35's and compare. How about that ?

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    KGB, let's get this straight. You are using the much maligned debriefing from col. Fornof (not that he was wrong, just that his debrief was based on impressions) to support the idea that the Su-30 Mki is as maneuverable as the F-22? Did you get the part about F-15's drilling their brains out with guns going in the vertical? Good non-example. What's next hud footage of the Rafale killing the F-22 to prove the maneuverability of the Su-35 vis a vis the typhoon? They are pilot impressions from exercises, experience counts more than the platform.

  28. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by KGB View Post
    You dress up your partisan bickering as a language error to make other ppl look bad
    No i don't. As usual you are trying to push your misunderstanding as fact. In this case it is even worse because anyone who can speak/listen English properly can see that you are wrong. The video even have caption. If you can't understand to what he said then at least turn it on.

    Quote Originally Posted by KGB View Post
    Then you sneak in a reference about the F 15 when you know that the guy is comparing the F 22 to the su 30. Not the F 15.
    Alright, open the video on full screen, turn on the caption. Between 5:56 and 6:25 , he literally said F-15 with wing tank dominate clean Su-30. No one sneak anything in. It is just you either having very poor English ( which is acceptable, but turn on the caption next time) or trying to troll.

    Quote Originally Posted by KGB View Post
    But then garryA goes on about fuel tanks, better pilots and tactics blah blah blah.
    I talked about fuel tank and pilots because that is literally what he talked about in the video. You are just embarrassing yourself now
    Last edited by garryA; 18th February 2017 at 06:06.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FBW View Post
    KGB, let's get this straight. You are using the much maligned debriefing from col. Fornof (not that he was wrong, just that his debrief was based on impressions) to support the idea that the Su-30 Mki is as maneuverable as the F-22? Did you get the part about F-15's drilling their brains out with guns going in the vertical? Good non-example. What's next hud footage of the Rafale killing the F-22 to prove the maneuverability of the Su-35 vis a vis the typhoon? They are pilot impressions from exercises, experience counts more than the platform.
    Except that Fornof was retired when he did this speach to a "club" (praetorians)

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    Quote Originally Posted by halloweene View Post
    Except that Fornof was retired when he did this speach to a "club" (praetorians)
    I don't believe he was. If I remember correctly, he did retire soon after. The video flap basically ended his active duty career. He served as commander of Nevada ANG in 2011.

    He was still director of requirements and testing USAF warfare center in 2008( looked it up).
    Last edited by FBW; 18th February 2017 at 12:19.

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