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Thread: 2017 PAK-FA Thread

  1. #31
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    https://www.flightglobal.com/news/ar...r-edge-433336/

    Meanwhile, Johnson is dubious about how far the government will go in allowing India to select its own weapons for the F-16. “The US government generally dislikes modifying US military aircraft to carry any foreign weapons systems, and protects source code on our military aircraft so other countries can’t do the integration themselves.”New Delhi also sees the joint development of the Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft with Russia as another source of high-end know how.

    With both MMRCA and FGFA, New Delhi bargained hard for technology transfer and succeeded in extracting favourable concessions, but neither deal panned out as expected. This year will mark a decade since the inking of the FFGA agreement between India and Russia.

    “The conditions and contractual terms that we have discussed for FGFA are very beneficial for India,” says HAL chairman Suvarna Raju. “We are positive looking at the FGFA and I am hopeful that we will have positive movement on the FGFA in 2017.”


    The FGFA is seen as key to the air force’s fleet in the 2030s and 2040s. India invested $265 million in the preliminary design phase, which was completed in June 2013. The negotiations for R&D contracts continue, though it appears increasingly likely that India will look to proceed with a licensed production and technology transfer model.

    NC Agarwal, former director of design and development at HAL, was part of an official Indian delegation to see the first prototype: “You don’t see much of a difference in the internal structure between the Su-30 and FGFA. The main difference is where the Su-30 makes use of a large amount of metallic structures, the FGFA makes use of composites in areas such as the wing. The FGFA, however, uses a large proportion of titanium.”

    New Delhi appears to have given up on some of its ambitions for the type, namely the development of an India-specific variant known as the Perspective Multirole Fighter, with two seats. Bureaucratic wrangling on New Delhi’s part curtailed Indian participation in the programme at a time when Russia was pushing steadily ahead.
    "A map does you no good if you don't know where you are"

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by MSphere View Post
    I have clearly shown, based on orders for Russian MoD, that the Su-30SM was more expensive than the Su-35S. You better accept that... Maybe it's because of higher cost at IAZ, I can't tell.. The foreign content on the MKI/SM is well known, BTW..
    All (or most) other things being equal, two seater planes are usually more expensive than single seater ones.

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by FalconDude View Post
    All (or most) other things being equal, two seater planes are usually more expensive than single seater ones.
    Yes I think you are correct. The doblicity of systems for a two seater makes much more re-wire work as well.
    All this will increase cost.
    Last edited by haavarla; 2nd February 2017 at 12:58.
    Thanks

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by TR1 View Post
    Actually from insider word the Indians had a lot of difficulties strengthening the MKI to take BhrahMos, so it is not a trivial task. Part of the reason the VKS is not very interested in this (the other being they have big platforms to do that).

    Given Pak-FA's weapon bay profile I don't think Onix/Yakhont/BrahMos integration is viable.
    but there are some people who think all flankers are the same , everything is plug and play, and its all as easy as building your own desktop.
    I guess this is what happens when Breivik spends an entire day in the f-35 thread waging war with the America #1 crowd, you totally forget about other aircraft

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Austin View Post
    https://www.flightglobal.com/news/ar...r-edge-433336/

    "Meanwhile, Johnson is dubious about how far the government will go in allowing India to select its own weapons for the F-16. “The US government generally dislikes modifying US military aircraft to carry any foreign weapons systems, and protects source code on our military aircraft so other countries can’t do the integration themselves.”
    One reason why the UAE paid for development of & bought Mirage 2000-9. The USA refused to sell the UAE all the weapons it wanted for the F-16E, or allow non-US equivalents to be integrated onto it.
    Juris praecepta sunt haec: honeste vivere, alterum non laedere, suum cuique tribuere.
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  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by MSphere View Post
    China has bought 24 Su-35s for ~$2bil. The unit export price, incl. infrastructure is less than naked flyaway of the F-35.. but you see no evidence..
    Something tells me you wouldn't see it even if it punched you into the face..
    24 Su-35 for 2 billion USD = 83.33 million per airframe - which is almost equal to the latest quoted flyaway cost for the F-35 of 85 million USD. The question remains as to what else is provided to the PLAAF by KnAAZ. You mentioned 'incl. infrastructure' what training, logistics, spare parts and support package was included in the deal - or perhaps 83.33 mil is indeed just a flyaway price, which I suspect.

  7. #37
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    24 Su-35 for 2 billion USD = 83.33 million per airframe - which is almost equal to the latest quoted flyaway cost for the F-35 of 85 million USD. The question remains as to what else is provided to the PLAAF by KnAAZ.
    I don't think that the estimated flyaway cost for the F-35 includes the engine. Also, you are comparing an export price to an internal one. VKS pays much less for it's Su-35s.
    History and Military Technology blog

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  8. #38
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    on the subject of Vietnamese Flankers..

    Wasp invades Vietnamese Mk2 in flight

    http://www.popularmechanics.com/mili...plane-cockpit/

  9. #39
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    This Flanker thread is interesting.
    When will we get a 2017 PakFa thread?

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by MSphere View Post
    Come on.. your link against mine?

    http://www.forbes.ru/news/309941-min...60-mlrd-rublei
    http://www.vedomosti.ru/politics/art...ebitelei-su-35
    https://nation-news.ru/176656-minobo...60-mlrd-rublei
    http://www.rbc.ru/rbcfreenews/569301539a79476d1fbe268e
    http://vz.ru/news/2016/1/11/787812.html
    https://regnum.ru/news/economy/2050484.html
    https://southfront.org/russias-aeros...su-35-fighters
    http://world-defense.com/threads/rus...-fighters.3481


    Nonsense.. All current Russian and Kazakh Su-30SMs are flying with Thales/Sagem/Samtel gear onboard.. Granted, Israeli gear is not present as they have built the Su-30SM based on the de-israelised Su-30MKM for Malaysia (minus the SAAB/Avitronics system).

    A 100% Russian version with HUD from Su-35S is in the pipeline but it has not even flown yet. In the meantime, Russian Su-30SM cockpit with Thales VEH-3022 HUD and Samtel SMD-55 displays.

    Attachment 251100
    This cockpit picture is from which batch (2012 or 2015-16)? or the number in the batch

  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Levsha View Post
    24 Su-35 for 2 billion USD = 83.33 million per airframe - which is almost equal to the latest quoted flyaway cost for the F-35 of 85 million USD. The question remains as to what else is provided to the PLAAF by KnAAZ. You mentioned 'incl. infrastructure' what training, logistics, spare parts and support package was included in the deal - or perhaps 83.33 mil is indeed just a flyaway price, which I suspect.
    Where are you getting that number for the F 35 price ? That's more than likely a treaty ally cost. Not even a price. There is a difference.

    Suppliers in all nine of the program's partner countries are producing F-35 components for all aircraft, not just those for their country. And in addition to the Fort Worth plant, there are two Final Assembly and Check Out (FACO) facilities outside the United States: one in Cameri, Italy, where the first jet was delivered in December 2015; and another in Nagoya, Japan, where the first jet is currently being manufactured.

  12. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by a89 View Post
    I don't think that the estimated flyaway cost for the F-35 includes the engine. Also, you are comparing an export price to an internal one. VKS pays much less for it's Su-35s.
    The "Recurring" or the "Non Recurring Fly Away Unit Cost" does include the Engine. The "85 million US$" is an estimate (wich may be attained,or not) for the 2019 "Non Recurring Fly Away Unit Cost" F-35A. Generic (very generic) rule of thumb, acquisition costs for the aircraft, plus basic initial training, plus basic initial suport and manuals, double the "Fly Away Unit Cost" value, throw in a good suport deal and a handfull of weapons, triple it (and if your country is somewhere in the Arabian Peninsula, well,the "sky´s the limit" in terms of acquisition costs).
    Last edited by Sintra; 2nd February 2017 at 17:18.

  13. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by a89 View Post
    I don't think that the estimated flyaway cost for the F-35 includes the engine. Also, you are comparing an export price to an internal one. VKS pays much less for it's Su-35s.
    The $85 Million price target includes the engine. There are plenty of direct quotes from the program office to that end. Engine and air-frame deals are negotiated separately and you have average procurement unit cost for both available in the SAR.
    Old radar types never die; they just phased array

  14. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by FalconDude View Post
    All (or most) other things being equal, two seater planes are usually more expensive than single seater ones.
    The Su-35 and Su-30SM are far from equal as they stand today though.
    http://img818.imageshack.us/img818/9098/rsz11rsz3807.jpg

  15. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Y-20 Bacon View Post
    ...filled with too much talk on exposed hotdogs
    Can anyone translate this into a recognizable subset of the English language?
    Mercurius Cantabrigiensis

  16. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Y-20 Bacon View Post
    on the subject of Vietnamese Flankers..

    Wasp invades Vietnamese Mk2 in flight

    http://www.popularmechanics.com/mili...plane-cockpit/
    Good lord.

    Unrelated:



    Recent pic.
    http://img818.imageshack.us/img818/9098/rsz11rsz3807.jpg

  17. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mercurius View Post
    Can anyone translate this into a recognizable subset of the English language?
    Trust me, you don't want that

  18. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by TR1 View Post
    Good lord.

    Unrelated:



    Recent pic.
    Wut!?
    Recent pic from some guy's archive? What is that recovery shute doing on that prototype. I thought they removed it..
    Thanks

  19. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Levsha View Post
    24 Su-35 for 2 billion USD = 83.33 million per airframe - which is almost equal to the latest quoted flyaway cost for the F-35 of 85 million USD. The question remains as to what else is provided to the PLAAF by KnAAZ. You mentioned 'incl. infrastructure' what training, logistics, spare parts and support package was included in the deal - or perhaps 83.33 mil is indeed just a flyaway price, which I suspect.
    Russian MoD pays 1.2 bil RUB for one Su-35S ($20.2 mil in today's exchange rate). This is the closest to the flyaway price we got..
    Last edited by MSphere; 3rd February 2017 at 01:15.

  20. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by JSR View Post
    This cockpit picture is from which batch (2012 or 2015-16)? or the number in the batch
    Bort 21, RF-93668, cn 10MK5-1107

  21. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by haavarla View Post
    Wut!?
    Recent pic from some guy's archive? What is that recovery shute doing on that prototype. I thought they removed it..
    Nope, it was never removed..
    They have replaced the canopy on the 051, so it seems..

  22. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by MSphere View Post
    Bort 21, RF-93668, cn 10MK5-1107
    I mean this bort number has nothing to do for the prices paid for 2015-2016 contracts as we don't know the sub components of later order.

  23. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by JSR View Post
    I mean this bort number has nothing to do for the prices paid for 2015-2016 contracts as we don't know the sub components of later order.
    We can only judge the ones that were delivered thus far, up to cn 10MK5-141x. They are all equipped with Thales/Sagem/Samtel stuff.

  24. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by MSphere View Post
    Russian MoD pays 1.2 bil RUB for one Su-35S ($20.2 mil in today's exchange rate). This is the closest to the flyaway price we got..
    You do realise the Russian MOD are paying a subsidized price for new Russian sourced aircraft don't you, or do you seriously believe that one of the world's most advanced and heaviest fighter aircraft sell for 20 million a piece?

    As a frame of reference India bought 48 Mi-17V last year for 1.1 billion USD = $23 million http://tass.com/economy/818154

    Also, Bangladesh bought 24 Yak-130 for 800 million USD = 33.3 million apiece. https://sputniknews.com/military/201...ts-Worth-800M/

    In the real world we live in countries don't produce and sell light 4.6 tonne jet trainers for the same price as 18 tonne multi role jet fighter.

  25. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Levsha View Post
    You do realise the Russian MOD are paying a subsidized price for new Russian sourced aircraft don't you,
    No, I do not.. that is just your own invention..

    Quote Originally Posted by Levsha View Post
    or do you seriously believe that one of the world's most advanced and heaviest fighter aircraft sell for 20 million a piece?
    It sells for 1.2 bil RUB in the first place.. Today it's $20mil, few years ago it was more than $40mil, the RUB/USD exchange rate has been rather volatile.. the supply chain for the Su-35S is completely decoupled from US dollar..

    Quote Originally Posted by Levsha View Post
    As a frame of reference India bought 48 Mi-17V last year for 1.1 billion USD = $23 million
    Also, Bangladesh bought 24 Yak-130 for 800 million USD = 33.3 million apiece.
    These are export prices and have no connection to the flyaway cost the Russian MoD have to pay. Three years ago, the Russian MoD (flyaway) price tag for one brand new Mi-8AMTSh was 315 mil RUB.. today it's slightly over $5.3 mil.. The FSB has paid 1.175 bil RUB for three specialized Mi-8AMTShs in 2016 - unit price $6.6 mil

    http://www.rbc.ru/society/03/08/2013...794761c0ce057c
    https://ria.ru/defense_safety/20161003/1478400751.html

    Quote Originally Posted by Levsha View Post
    In the real world we live in countries don't produce and sell light 4.6 tonne jet trainers for the same price as 18 tonne multi role jet fighter.
    In the real world we live in people should understand what they are talking about, in the first place, and not mix PAUC/APUC export prices with flyaway.. It's getting quite tiresome to explain this over and over to you without any apparent effect.
    Last edited by MSphere; 3rd February 2017 at 13:38.

  26. #56
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    Mikhail Pogosyan when he was heading UAC and just 2 year back or so mentioned in a meeting with Putin that for every 1 USD that they spend into Aviation they make 6 USD , thats a ratio of 1:6 and a very profitable business for them.

    Converting Rub to USD wont give an exact picture as Rouble has devaluated over years and most recently massively , while they spend the same amount of Rub to buy these.
    "A map does you no good if you don't know where you are"

  27. #57
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    Govt to set up panel to assess viability of building stealth fighter with Russia

    http://www.hindustantimes.com/india-...oqhLRxTPM.html
    The two countries have been discussing the project for several years but are yet to sign a $4-billion research and development (R&D) contract for the FGFA. India has already spent Rs 1,500 crore on the preliminary design stage (PDS) of the FGFA project. The PDS was completed in June 2013 on the basis of a contract inked with Russia in December 2010.

    “Several things have been resolved but it is critical to assess how we benefit from the programme before making the next move. Design issues also have to be looked into,” the source said. The Indian Air Force wants the stealth fighter to have a more powerful engine as the existing one doesn’t give it super cruise capability.
    "A map does you no good if you don't know where you are"

  28. #58
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    if true, what a spectacular outcome. No supercruise?!!

  29. #59
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    Yeah, I don't believe that at all, even with 117 engines.

    Media gonna media.
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  30. #60
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    Maybe the Indian version will have the more powerful engine along with the composites, while the Russian version will have to make do with the weaker version and be all-metal.

    /sarcasm

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