Key.Aero Network
Register Free

Page 1 of 5 12345 LastLast
Results 1 to 30 of 144

Thread: 2017 PAK-FA Thread

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Posts
    1,967

    2017 PAK-FA Thread










    since the old one is super long but filled with too much talk on exposed hotdogs

    lets start a new for the new year

    I found this today
    http://baodatviet.vn/quoc-phong/vu-k...ak-fa-3328204/

    looks like Vietnam wants Pak-fa with brahmos
    Last edited by Y-20 Bacon; 4th February 2017 at 11:12.

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Norway
    Posts
    5,535
    Quote Originally Posted by Y-20 Bacon View Post
    since the old one is super long but filled with too much talk on exposed hotdogs

    lets start a new for the new year

    I found this today
    http://baodatviet.vn/quoc-phong/vu-k...ak-fa-3328204/

    looks like Vietnam wants Pak-fa with brahmos
    Brahmos they will get.
    PakFa they will get.. not now, not later, but much much later.
    Better just upgrade those Flankers and buy new Su-35 or Su-30SM.
    Thanks

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    Cataclysm
    Posts
    8,633
    Quote Originally Posted by haavarla View Post
    Better just upgrade those Flankers and buy new Su-35 or Su-30SM.
    There is no upgrade project for the Su-30MK2, as of yet.. Wonder if KnAAZ will be bothered to make one in the future.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Posts
    1,967
    Quote Originally Posted by MSphere View Post
    There is no upgrade project for the Su-30MK2, as of yet.. Wonder if KnAAZ will be bothered to make one in the future.
    that still surprises me they went with the same flanker china has, rather than going for the one India has. especially since there's that russia-india-vietnam triangle they could benefit from.
    Vietnam's GDP (assuming it continues its pace min 6%) will be similar to Spain in 2035. surely by then they can afford one squadron of pak-fas

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Norway
    Posts
    5,535
    Quote Originally Posted by Y-20 Bacon View Post
    that still surprises me they went with the same flanker china has, rather than going for the one India has. especially since there's that russia-india-vietnam triangle they could benefit from.
    Vietnam's GDP (assuming it continues its pace min 6%) will be similar to Spain in 2035. surely by then they can afford one squadron of pak-fas
    Who cares as long as the MK2's can fire Anti-ship missiles like Brahmos.
    Thanks

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Posts
    1,967
    Quote Originally Posted by haavarla View Post
    Who cares as long as the MK2's can fire Anti-ship missiles like Brahmos.
    who cares? quite obviously people who want to fire Brahmos does.
    the MKI series and spin offs can fire it. not the MK2s Vietnam has, whose capabilities China knows very well because they fly the same thing.

    Maybe you forgot China and Vietnam have major disputes.

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Jun 2014
    Posts
    1,307
    Quote Originally Posted by Y-20 Bacon View Post
    that still surprises me they went with the same flanker china has, rather than going for the one India has. especially since there's that russia-india-vietnam triangle they could benefit from.
    Vietnam's GDP (assuming it continues its pace min 6%) will be similar to Spain in 2035. surely by then they can afford one squadron of pak-fas
    If they are to have just a squadron of them, better to use them in an exclusive A2A role.
    Put Bhramos on the valid and brand new Mk2 they have and put the PAK-FA to escort them.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Norway
    Posts
    5,535
    Quote Originally Posted by Y-20 Bacon View Post
    who cares? quite obviously people who want to fire Brahmos does.
    the MKI series and spin offs can fire it. not the MK2s Vietnam has, whose capabilities China knows very well because they fly the same thing.

    Maybe you forgot China and Vietnam have major disputes.
    well mr obvious, then Vietnam have to re-wire ad re-software those MK2 to operate Brahmos.
    Thanks

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Posts
    1,967
    Quote Originally Posted by haavarla View Post
    well mr obvious, then Vietnam have to re-wire ad re-software those MK2 to operate Brahmos.
    great idea. I am sure Vietnam is waiting for you to come over with a thick wallet and knowledge on how to do so. Because we all know how well India is doing integrating Brahmos on their Flankers. derp.

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    Cataclysm
    Posts
    8,633
    Quote Originally Posted by Y-20 Bacon
    that still surprises me they went with the same flanker china has, rather than going for the one India has.
    Money.. the MK2 was dirt cheap.. 100% logistic chain in Russia, denominated in Rubles.. OTOH, due to foreign content, the MKI/SM is the most expensive Flanker variant ever.. even more expensive than the Su-35S..

  11. #11
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Posts
    2,714
    Neither the MK2 nor the baseline -SM can employ the Brahmos. Its too heavy. Period.

    HAL has run a program to strengthen the Su-30's airframe to carry it and only about 40 of these modified airframes have been ordered IIRC.

    The MK2 will employ the same anti-ship missile as the -SM/MKI i.e Kh-35.

    The Brahmos referenced in the article is probably the either a land/ship launched variant or the miniaturised Brahmos(-M) that's expected to fit into the PAK FA's internal bays. Its not entering the picture before 2030.

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    Cataclysm
    Posts
    8,633
    Quote Originally Posted by Vnomad View Post
    The MK2 will employ the same anti-ship missile as the -SM/MKI i.e Kh-35.
    Nope, the MK2 is not wired for Kh-35U. But they can employ Kh-31A..

  13. #13
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Posts
    2,714
    Quote Originally Posted by MSphere View Post
    Money.. the MK2 was dirt cheap.. 100% logistic chain in Russia, denominated in Rubles.. OTOH, due to foreign content, the MKI/SM is the most expensive Flanker variant ever.. even more expensive than the Su-35S..
    Its not. The Su-35 is more expensive and the foreign content on the SM is relatively limited. Like the MC and some composite aerostructures (like the canards) from India.

  14. #14
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Posts
    2,714
    Quote Originally Posted by MSphere View Post
    Nope, the MK2 is not wired for Kh-35U. But they can employ Kh-31A..
    Scratch that. Kh-59 not 35.

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    Cataclysm
    Posts
    8,633
    Quote Originally Posted by Vnomad View Post
    Its not. The Su-35 is more expensive and the foreign content on the SM is relatively limited. Like the MC and some composite aerostructures (like the canards) from India.
    I have clearly shown, based on orders for Russian MoD, that the Su-30SM was more expensive than the Su-35S. You better accept that... Maybe it's because of higher cost at IAZ, I can't tell.. The foreign content on the MKI/SM is well known, BTW..

  16. #16
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Norway
    Posts
    5,535
    Quote Originally Posted by Y-20 Bacon View Post
    great idea. I am sure Vietnam is waiting for you to come over with a thick wallet and knowledge on how to do so. Because we all know how well India is doing integrating Brahmos on their Flankers. derp.
    India did upgrade some 20-40 MKI's. But taking HAL as a metric.. well its your words.
    Personaly, if i was Vietnam, i would fly or ship those MK2's back to Russia and let Sukhoi do the trick.

    It can be done. Sure cheaper than buying new Su-30SM's..
    And i'm not even sure if the Su-30SM and 35S actually can carry the Brahmos..
    Thanks

  17. #17
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    Cataclysm
    Posts
    8,633
    Quote Originally Posted by haavarla View Post
    India did upgrade some 20-40 MKI's. But taking HAL as a metric.. well its your words.
    Personally, if i was Vietnam, i would fly or ship those MK2's back to Russia and let Sukhoi do the trick.
    There is no Sukhoi to do the trick.. Sukhoi is a design bureau, not a production company. MK2s were made at KnAAZ and they are not involved in the BrahMos integration on the MKI in any way as the MKI is a product made by IAZ Irkutsk.


    Quote Originally Posted by haavarla View Post
    It can be done. Sure cheaper than buying new Su-30SM's.. And i'm not even sure if the Su-30SM and 35S actually can carry the Brahmos..
    They cannot.

  18. #18
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Posts
    2,714
    Quote Originally Posted by MSphere View Post
    I have clearly shown, based on orders for Russian MoD, that the Su-30SM was more expensive than the Su-35S. You better accept that...
    I can see nothing on this thread at least that qualifies as being clear evidence.

    The foreign content on the MKI/SM is well known, BTW..
    The MKI & SM aren't interchangeable. The export version of the SM is the SME not the MK. The salient difference being the foreign content.

  19. #19
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Norway
    Posts
    5,535
    Quote Originally Posted by MSphere View Post
    There is no Sukhoi to do the trick.. Sukhoi is a design bureau, not a production company. MK2s were made at KnAAZ and they are not involved in the BrahMos integration on the MKI in any way as the MKI is a product made by IAZ Irkutsk.


    They cannot.
    Yes i know that..
    My point was, its not clear who should do it Irkuts or KnAAZ. I doesn't matter, as long as it gets done. Being able to operate Brahmos from Flankers is a game changer in capability as i see it.

    So what is the heaviest ordinance/weapon system Su-30SM and 35S can carry now?
    Reason for Q is the Russian Navy now field Su-30SM..
    Last edited by haavarla; 1st February 2017 at 13:48.
    Thanks

  20. #20
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Posts
    4,181
    Quote Originally Posted by Vnomad View Post
    Neither the MK2 nor the baseline -SM can employ the Brahmos. Its too heavy. Period.

    HAL has run a program to strengthen the Su-30's airframe to carry it and only about 40 of these modified airframes have been ordered IIRC.

    The MK2 will employ the same anti-ship missile as the -SM/MKI i.e Kh-35.

    The Brahmos referenced in the article is probably the either a land/ship launched variant or the miniaturised Brahmos(-M) that's expected to fit into the PAK FA's internal bays. Its not entering the picture before 2030.
    why it will take to 2030?. the hypersonic weopons are going to enter service in Ruaf around 2020.
    The exportable technology is getting more than double in range in less than 3 years.
    https://sputniknews.com/military/201...missile-range/
    Russian-Indian BrahMos short-range ramjet supersonic cruise missiles, currently produced for India's armed forces, may gain an extended range variant by 2019, the missile's Russian manufacturer said Friday
    99% of defence and industrialization order completed in 2016 as I predicted before no cuts and practically 100% procurement on time.
    http://tass.com/defense/928203
    Russian government has no intention to cut budget spending on defense sector
    The brahmos candidate is Su34 if the need it. It strong enough to carry 3000L fuel tank. Su-35 can lift 2500L on outboard wings. Su-30SM is mid role fighter not for heavy lifting.

  21. #21
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    Cataclysm
    Posts
    8,633
    Quote Originally Posted by Vnomad View Post
    I can see nothing on this thread at least that qualifies as being clear evidence.
    It wasn't posted in this thread..
    The numbers are clear.. Two contracts for Russian MoD, worth ~60 bil RUB each, separated only few months apart.. one for 37 Su-30SM, the other one or 50 Su-35S.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vnomad View Post
    The MKI & SM aren't interchangeable. The export version of the SM is the SME not the MK. The salient difference being the foreign content.
    The MKI and SM are almost interchangeable. Few changes in the cockpit layout, Bars-R version, different IFF, that's it.

  22. #22
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    .de
    Posts
    2,591
    In the end I doubt very much if the Su-35 will be any cheaper than the Rafale or F-35 - I see no evidence that it will be.

  23. #23
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Posts
    8,810
    Quote Originally Posted by haavarla View Post
    well mr obvious, then Vietnam have to re-wire ad re-software those MK2 to operate Brahmos.
    Actually from insider word the Indians had a lot of difficulties strengthening the MKI to take BhrahMos, so it is not a trivial task. Part of the reason the VKS is not very interested in this (the other being they have big platforms to do that).

    Given Pak-FA's weapon bay profile I don't think Onix/Yakhont/BrahMos integration is viable.
    http://img818.imageshack.us/img818/9098/rsz11rsz3807.jpg

  24. #24
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Posts
    8,810
    Quote Originally Posted by MSphere View Post
    I have clearly shown, based on orders for Russian MoD, that the Su-30SM was more expensive than the Su-35S. You better accept that... Maybe it's because of higher cost at IAZ, I can't tell.. The foreign content on the MKI/SM is well known, BTW..
    I guess we will see with the next batch of SMs that replaces the absurdly expensive French components.
    The Indian parts should not be so outrageously pricey.
    http://img818.imageshack.us/img818/9098/rsz11rsz3807.jpg

  25. #25
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    Nizhny Novgorod, Russia
    Posts
    1,090
    Quote Originally Posted by TR1 View Post
    Actually from insider word the Indians had a lot of difficulties strengthening the MKI to take BhrahMos, so it is not a trivial task. Part of the reason the VKS is not very interested in this (the other being they have big platforms to do that).
    There is no problem to take off with the missile "Brahmos". The problem - to landing with the "Brahmos"

  26. #26
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Posts
    2,714
    Quote Originally Posted by MSphere View Post
    It wasn't posted in this thread..
    The numbers are clear.. Two contracts for Russian MoD, worth ~60 bil RUB each, separated only few months apart.. one for 37 Su-30SM, the other one or 50 Su-35S.
    The Russian air force is expanding its Sukhoi-35S fleet with a 100 billion rubles ($1.4 billion) order for 50 more of the twin-engine fighters, according to a Russian industry official. The contract was signed last August, a representative of Sukhoi parent company United Aircraft Corporation (UAC) tells Aviation Week. - Link


    The MKI and SM are almost interchangeable. Few changes in the cockpit layout, Bars-R version, different IFF, that's it.
    Those few changes also consisted of replacing the foreign i.e. French (& Israeli) gear with domestic Russian equivalents.

  27. #27
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Posts
    8,810
    Quote Originally Posted by paralay View Post
    There is no problem to take off with the missile "Brahmos". The problem - to landing with the "Brahmos"
    Ah thanks.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vnomad View Post
    The Russian air force is expanding its Sukhoi-35S fleet with a 100 billion rubles ($1.4 billion) order for 50 more of the twin-engine fighters, according to a Russian industry official. The contract was signed last August, a representative of Sukhoi parent company United Aircraft Corporation (UAC) tells Aviation Week. - Link
    Msphere is referring to the Vedemosti source from later in 2016, that cited the contract as for 60 billion rubles.

    I think looking at just unit price is kind of a waste of time for RuMOD contracts, as it doesn't take into account gov money grants to the plants that would otherwise reflect on purchase price.
    Hence that batch of 16 MiG-29SMTs per unit in rubles is not too far off from the recent Su-35 order- despite the latter being light-years more advanced.
    http://img818.imageshack.us/img818/9098/rsz11rsz3807.jpg

  28. #28
    Join Date
    Mar 2016
    Posts
    780
    Quote Originally Posted by TR1 View Post
    I think looking at just unit price is kind of a waste of time for RuMOD contracts, as it doesn't take into account gov money grants to the plants that would otherwise reflect on purchase price.
    Yeah but once you go down that road, there is no end. The only true prices for military aircraft, are ones where a country is selling to a non treaty ally.

  29. #29
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    Cataclysm
    Posts
    8,633
    Quote Originally Posted by Vnomad View Post
    The Russian air force is expanding its Sukhoi-35S fleet with a 100 billion rubles ($1.4 billion) order for 50 more of the twin-engine fighters, according to a Russian industry official. The contract was signed last August, a representative of Sukhoi parent company United Aircraft Corporation (UAC) tells Aviation Week. - Link
    Come on.. your link against mine?

    http://www.forbes.ru/news/309941-min...60-mlrd-rublei
    http://www.vedomosti.ru/politics/art...ebitelei-su-35
    https://nation-news.ru/176656-minobo...60-mlrd-rublei
    http://www.rbc.ru/rbcfreenews/569301539a79476d1fbe268e
    http://vz.ru/news/2016/1/11/787812.html
    https://regnum.ru/news/economy/2050484.html
    https://southfront.org/russias-aeros...su-35-fighters
    http://world-defense.com/threads/rus...-fighters.3481

    Quote Originally Posted by Vnomad View Post
    Those few changes also consisted of replacing the foreign i.e. French (& Israeli) gear with domestic Russian equivalents.
    Nonsense.. All current Russian and Kazakh Su-30SMs are flying with Thales/Sagem/Samtel gear onboard.. Granted, Israeli gear is not present as they have built the Su-30SM based on the de-israelised Su-30MKM for Malaysia (minus the SAAB/Avitronics system).

    A 100% Russian version with HUD from Su-35S is in the pipeline but it has not even flown yet. In the meantime, Russian Su-30SM cockpit with Thales VEH-3022 HUD and Samtel SMD-55 displays.

    Name:  Su-30SM cockpit No21.jpg
Views: 2710
Size:  133.1 KB
    Last edited by MSphere; 1st February 2017 at 22:45.

  30. #30
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    Cataclysm
    Posts
    8,633
    Quote Originally Posted by Levsha View Post
    In the end I doubt very much if the Su-35 will be any cheaper than the Rafale or F-35 - I see no evidence that it will be.
    China has bought 24 Su-35s for ~$2bil. The unit export price, incl. infrastructure is less than naked flyaway of the F-35.. but you see no evidence..
    Something tells me you wouldn't see it even if it punched you into the face..
    Last edited by MSphere; 1st February 2017 at 22:58.

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

- Part of the    Network -

KEY AERO AVIATION NEWS

MAGAZINES

AVIATION FORUM

SHOP

 

WEBSITES