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Thread: Indian Air Force Thread 21

  1. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlackArcher View Post
    yes, it seems that there's a typo..the quote was



    Clearly, the Mk2 production should start when Mk1A production ends. That is ~2024. So the time period should have been ~2025-35, for a total of ~123+ Tejas Mk2s.

    And yes, the Naval LCA is almost everyone's favorite LCA variant. Mine too.

    Thanks!
    Another question. From what I can gather, they are planning to increase NLCA dimensions in MK2 thereby increasing its fuel capacity/range etc. Yet they are also promising a reduction in empty weight. How? I mean there is only so much they could achieve by redesigning the landing gear. Or is this another one of those over ambitious goals which might come back to bite them.

    ps. Now those projections for AMCA timelines seem more realistic than what we were used to in the past.
    Nothing is easier than self-deceit. For what each man wishes, that he also believes to be true. Demosthenes

  2. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by vikasrehman View Post
    Thanks!
    Another question. From what I can gather, they are planning to increase NLCA dimensions in MK2 thereby increasing its fuel capacity/range etc. Yet they are also promising a reduction in empty weight. How? I mean there is only so much they could achieve by redesigning the landing gear. Or is this another one of those over ambitious goals which might come back to bite them.

    ps. Now those projections for AMCA timelines seem more realistic than what we were used to in the past.
    They're going to increase the length of the N-LCA by 1m and the width by 350mm plus some other aerodynamic refinements such as reduced nose droop compared to the NP1 and NP2 protos. LEVCONs seem to have done their job and will be retained. the FCS changes such as the Automatic AoA Approach Hold Controller mode that were tested out on NP1 and NP2 will also go on to the Mk2

    Wing Span will get pushed out that way, but it will increase internal fuel capacity and help in the MLG retraction and attachment. The issue with the NP1 and NP2 prototypes was that load transfer to the structure through the attachment point of the MLG was not optimum. It couldn't be fixed without a big re-design and that is what the N-LCA Mk2 aims to do. That fix should help reduce the weight of the landing gear, which is the biggest issue with the NP1 and NP2, which has led to a much higher empty weight than is optimal. And with that done, the payload should increase. As will the fuel and hence the endurance in a clean configuration. Plus the F-414 will give it a 90kN engine, allowing for higher payload/fuel to be carried.
    Last edited by BlackArcher; 16th February 2017 at 22:20.

  3. #93
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    DRDO developing a new High Band Jammer pod for the Su-30MKI to replace the SAP518 pod (referred to as the 51A by mistake). Apparently the IAF was very unhappy with the pod and its impact on the MKI's flight envelope, plus interface issues with the MKI's RWR. IAF is reportedly happy with the new pod, calling it "very promising".



    Plus, plans to replace the MKI's current analog RWR system with a new DARE developed digital RWR 'Dhruti'




    DARE developing new jammer pod for IAF's Su-30MKI

    ...

    It all begins with the Russian SAP51A jammer pod that Moscow supplied with the Su-30MKI. After grappling for years with the pod, the Indian Air Force finally in 2015 realised it simply couldn’t use them for two reasons. One, they were heavy — and when slung onto wingtip hardpoints, they cut into flying envelope like a butcher’s knife.

    ‘With the Russian pods, the Sukhoi is basically a transport aircraft,’ one of the scientists says.

    The second issue is even worse. The IAF realised the SAP51A pod hadn’t been properly interfacing with the indigenous on-board radar warning receiver (RWR), therefore killing pilots’ chances to exploit both systems fully. While the reasons why the IAF took their time remains unclear (but at one level understandable), DRDO’s Defence Avionics Research Establishment stepped in immediately, offering to help. The result is the pod you see those three scientists standing next to in the photograph above.

    DARE’s High Band Jammer (HBJ) pod begins dummy carriage trials in six months on an IAF Su-30MKI, with full integration within the year. By 2019, DARE has committed to seeing the pod become fully operational with the IAF’s Flanker fleet.

    Significantly, the HBJ pod will be a fully indigenous one. A DARE scientist explains that the HBJ pod currently has three major systems: the integrated EW suite, the active array phased transmit-receive unit and the cooling system. While the first two have been rapidly developed in-house, the complex cooling system is in process, with DARE sourcing an Israeli system for the moment. The team says they’ll have a fully functional Indian cooling system on the HBJ pod before full integration trials by the end of the year.

    Better still, the HBJ pod, the scientists tell Livefist, will spawn a family of EW sensors and systems for platforms like the LCA Tejas, MiG-29 and any other fighter the IAF chooses to operate.

    The Indian Air Force, which has embraced the wares from DARE more than kit from most other DRDO labs is expectedly thrilled. An IAF Su-30MKI pilot at the show confirmed that the HBJ pod was a ‘very promising system’ and that ‘more than anything, it is our own in-house development, so I don’t have to run to the Russians if something doesn’t work’.

    A DARE scientist associated with the project tells a familiar story: Russia’s unwillingness to share codes (or its insistence on an additional commercial understanding) that could have helped manage the interfacing issues between the SAP51A pod and Indian RWR better and faster.

    Incidentally, the indigenous DARE RWR on the IAF’s Su-30MKIs will also be replaced soon. The lab is in final testing of an all digital RWR (the existing system is analog) christened ‘Dhruti’ that will begin ground testing in May this year, followed by a phased installation across the fleet.
    Last edited by BlackArcher; 16th February 2017 at 23:30.

  4. #94
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    There were several issues that caused the Rafale deal to collapse, he says, but he specifically pointed to France’s unwillingness to part with a proprietary RAM that is applied to the Rafale’s canopy. Had the deal moved forward, Rafales completed in India would have been sent to France to receive the coating.
    https://www.flightglobal.com/news/ar...thy-am-434300/

  5. #95
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    Apart from the single-engine fighter contest, Livefist can confirm that both Boeing and Dassault have been formally informed that the requirement for a twin-engine Make in India fighter will be floated once the Indian MoD finalises and announces its strategic partnership policy (Minister Parrikar yesterday suggested there was only ‘5% work left’). Both companies also concur that the deal will be to supple well over 150 jets to the Indian Air Force (and, potentially, the Indian Navy), and a focus to export to the global market.
    I am really puzzled by this -- so they are going to have:

    1. The SU-30mki (270 or so?)
    2. 36 Rafale
    3. 123(?) Tejas mk1/mk2?
    4. 150 or so "single engine fighter" (Gripen E/F or F-16 block 70)
    5. More than 150 twin-engine fighters (in addition to the 36 Rafale).
    6. quite a few Mirage 2000 and Jaguar
    7. Some older migs

    wow.


    Also it will be interesting to see if they go for Rafale or SH as the twin-engine "foreign" fighter. Although at this stage I must admit I am puzzled they don't choose the F-35 instead of a large number of twin-engine 4.5 gen fighters, by the time they are ready to order it should be significantly cheaper than the Rafale and perhaps also cheaper than the SH while being much more capable -- ooops I forgot India wants local production, that does not fit well with choosing the F-35 does it...

  6. #96
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    What are the French worried about, the Rafale contains no state-of-the-art technology, it's all outdated 80s stuff.

    /sarcasm

  7. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by Loke View Post
    What are the French worried about, the Rafale contains no state-of-the-art technology, it's all outdated 80s stuff.

    /sarcasm


    Same as F-22...

  8. #98
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    While sources in the IAF said the Gripen is a new and better aircraft compared to the F-16, which has only been updated, experts say that the latter may still have an edge. Air Marshal BK Pandey (retd) said, "Given the present political scenario and the kind of ties we are looking at having with the US, the F-16 looks like the aircraft. Just buying that, however, would be foolish."

    Another expert pointed out that if the F-16 deal has to come through then there needs to be some policy change in the US pertaining to Transfer of Technology (ToT) which may take years — but the IAF's need is immediate.

    "If India is buying an aircraft, it's looking at transfer of technology, without which the government would not go ahead as it makes no sense," Air Marshal M Matheswaran (retd) said.
    http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/c...w/57134888.cms

  9. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlackArcher View Post
    DRDO developing a new High Band Jammer pod for the Su-30MKI to replace the SAP518 pod (referred to as the 51A by mistake). Apparently the IAF was very unhappy with the pod and its impact on the MKI's flight envelope, plus interface issues with the MKI's RWR. IAF is reportedly happy with the new pod, calling it "very promising".



    Plus, plans to replace the MKI's current analog RWR system with a new DARE developed digital RWR 'Dhruti'




    DARE developing new jammer pod for IAF's Su-30MKI
    This pod story does not make sense. The pods were developed in early 90s and exported first to RMAF. it is more like outdated export tech.

  10. #100
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    This whole thing is mind boggling.

    Both F-16 and Gripen were part of MMRCA competition not too long ago. Neither was good enough for IAF back then. IAF purchased 36 Rafales in an off the shelf deal (may be because it would not have been easy to scrap that deal after millions the participants had poured into it). And now both Gripen/F-16 are back in line. Where is the logic in all this?

    When it comes to ToT, I think India would probably get a better deal with Gripen than F-16.

  11. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by Loke View Post
    What are the French worried about, the Rafale contains no state-of-the-art technology, it's all outdated 80s stuff.

    /sarcasm


    Quote Originally Posted by vikasrehman View Post
    This whole thing is mind boggling.

    Both F-16 and Gripen were part of MMRCA competition not too long ago. Neither was good enough for IAF back then. IAF purchased 36 Rafales in an off the shelf deal (may be because it would not have been easy to scrap that deal after millions the participants had poured into it). And now both Gripen/F-16 are back in line. Where is the logic in all this?.
    The logic is quite simple, there are hundreds of single engine jets in the Indian Air Force that needs replacement. It's simply to expensive to replace them with an expensive fighter like Rafale, Typhoon, SH etc.

    The need for the 126 Rafale's is still there even though they are acquiring the single engine jet.

  12. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by JakobS View Post




    The logic is quite simple, there are hundreds of single engine jets in the Indian Air Force that needs replacement. It's simply to expensive to replace them with an expensive fighter like Rafale, Typhoon, SH etc.

    The need for the 126 Rafale's is still there even though they are acquiring the single engine jet.
    Is this something that suddenly dawned on IAF? Wasn't this logic apparent before MMRCA started/concluded?
    Nothing is easier than self-deceit. For what each man wishes, that he also believes to be true. Demosthenes

  13. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by JakobS View Post
    The logic is quite simple, there are hundreds of single engine jets in the Indian Air Force that needs replacement. It's simply to expensive to replace them with an expensive fighter like Rafale, Typhoon, SH etc.
    .
    If only there was a cheap(ish) domestic single engine fighter ready to fill that gap.
    http://img818.imageshack.us/img818/9098/rsz11rsz3807.jpg

  14. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by TR1 View Post
    If only there was a cheap(ish) domestic single engine fighter ready to fill that gap.
    If only... :-)
    But that is probably too simple to qualify for logic.
    Nothing is easier than self-deceit. For what each man wishes, that he also believes to be true. Demosthenes

  15. #105
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    What's missing from the conversation is an appreciation of broader economic circumstances.

    First India was giddy about its then economic growth performance and we had MMRCA.

    Then there was a period of economic slowdown and MMRCA fell through as too expensive.

    Now the economy is kicking along one more and defence officials are getting high again imagining the possibilities.

    And foreign defence manufacturers are looking at economic projections and future requirements and realising that India is the great prize to be captured for the next generation and so are throwing everything but the kitchen sink to ensure they get at least a foot in the door. The level of bribes that must be flowing... it's a good time to be in a position of influence.
    Last edited by Rii; 17th February 2017 at 22:52.

  16. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by TR1 View Post
    If only there was a cheap(ish) domestic single engine fighter ready to fill that gap.
    Was not supposed to be a gap, was there? Only reason there is a gap is because Tejas Mk1A is 10 years or so late. GOI had many years to see that coming and should have done something about it.
    Sum ergo cogito

  17. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spitfire9 View Post
    Was not supposed to be a gap, was there? Only reason there is a gap is because Tejas Mk1A is 10 years or so late. GOI had many years to see that coming and should have done something about it.
    What is wrong with MK1?
    What is it that Bison/Mig27 can do that MK1 can't?
    Nothing is easier than self-deceit. For what each man wishes, that he also believes to be true. Demosthenes

  18. #108
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    http://img818.imageshack.us/img818/9098/rsz11rsz3807.jpg

  19. #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by vikasrehman View Post
    Is this something that suddenly dawned on IAF? Wasn't this logic apparent before MMRCA started/concluded?
    It's more a consequence of discoverys in the last years that the Tejas is not delivering all what is asked from it, and they are also having a hard time scaling up the production and supply chain for it.

  20. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by vikasrehman View Post
    What is wrong with MK1?
    What is it that Bison/Mig27 can do that MK1 can't?
    The Bison is the last stage before the MiG-21 retires, the last logical upgrade for a 2nd generation fighter. It is the best MiG-21 variant but it's not a modern 4th gen fighter. As per the CAG, it's Kopyo radar's air to ground modes didn't even work properly, not to mention not meeting MTBO and MTBF specs. Other than that, the Bison basically offers decent air interception capabilities with short range and endurance. The Tejas Mk1 itself offers a jump in every single aspect not to mention the inherently safer design with the FCS and more modern engine and avionics.

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  22. #112
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    ? is india going catobar ?
    what AEW will it use ?

  23. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by obligatory View Post
    ? is india going catobar ?
    what AEW will it use ?
    no idea why a Brazilian naval Gripen is posted in an Indian Air Force Thread.
    Wrong country, wrong branch

  24. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by obligatory View Post
    ? is india going catobar ?
    what AEW will it use ?
    E-2D. And the IN is considering operating a few shore-based in advance of the IAC-2, which will be equipped with the EMALS.

    New Delhi. The Indian Navy has initiated the first steps towards acquiring the Electromagnetic Aircraft Launch System (EMALS) as well as the long range surveillance drone Predator B Guardian by sending Letters of Request (LORs) to the Pentagon under government-to-government deals.

    The LORs, requesting price and availability for 22 Guardians and three EMALS catapults, are now under consideration by the US Department of Defense (DOD) for clearance under the Foreign Military Sales (FMS) programme and according to sources in Washington, a positive view is likely to be taken and discussions between the two countries should begin soon. Once the process is through, the US Government (USG) will confirm by sending Letters of Acceptance (LOAs).
    .
    .
    The LOR for the EMALS was sent by the Navy just before Prime Minister Narendra Modi’s official visit to Washington in June, and for the Guardian after the visit just as the US also anchored India's entry into MTCR and declared India to be a Major Defense Partner (MDP). There are no confirmed financial figures for either the drones or the EMALs, but according to industry sources, the list price for the 22 Guardians should be around US $ two billion.

    - Link

  25. #115
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    That pic is from the AeroIndia 2017 show.

    And yes, IN has pretty much decided on catobar for it's next carrier.

  26. #116
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    Quote Originally Posted by Y-20 Bacon View Post
    no idea why a Brazilian naval Gripen is posted in an Indian Air Force Thread.
    Wrong country, wrong branch
    Its a photo from the Saab stall from the event.



  27. #117
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    Quote Originally Posted by JakobS View Post
    It's more a consequence of discoverys in the last years that the Tejas is not delivering all what is asked from it, and they are also having a hard time scaling up the production and supply chain for it.
    I'm not too sure about this.
    I mean just take a look at their active BVRAAM. Whereas most countries only have one, in IAF one see R77 on MKI/Mig29, Derby on LCA, MICA on M2K/Rafale (possibly Meteor later), there is indigenous development of Astra, and now there is even talk of AIM 120D on the new single engine fighter. I think the only ones missing from this combination is the Taiwanese/Chinese missiles. Logical?
    Nothing is easier than self-deceit. For what each man wishes, that he also believes to be true. Demosthenes

  28. #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by vikasrehman View Post
    I'm not too sure about this.
    I mean just take a look at their active BVRAAM. Whereas most countries only have one, in IAF one see R77 on MKI/Mig29, Derby on LCA, MICA on M2K/Rafale (possibly Meteor later), there is indigenous development of Astra, and now there is even talk of AIM 120D on the new single engine fighter. I think the only ones missing from this combination is the Taiwanese/Chinese missiles. Logical?
    Absolutely. Also R-27s (chosen by the IAF over the R-77 due to serviceability concerns) and ASRAAMs (Jaguar). The primarily factor here is the willingness of the OEM (and cost quoted) to integrate non-source munitions with the FCR, and, until recently, the absence of any 'standard' munition for the IAF that successfully balances cost, capability & reliability without facing any 'political' concerns.

    That said, from what I can tell, the service will be standardizing on the Python-5 & Astra Mk2 in the WVR & BVR roles respectively. Both have been contracted for integration on the Rafale (no MICAs AFAIK), supplemented by the pricier Meteor. They will be integrated on any other aircraft ordered under the MII program. Both will also be standard fitment on the upgraded Su-30 & Tejas Mk1A (currently utilizing ex-IN Derby stocks, I think), in the future. In the meantime, the existing inventory will need to suffice till its shelf-life runs out (which is already the case for much of the R-77 inventory).
    Last edited by Vnomad; 18th February 2017 at 11:35.

  29. #119
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    Quote Originally Posted by vikasrehman View Post
    I'm not too sure about this.
    I mean just take a look at their active BVRAAM.
    We can only speculate of course, but if the Tejas were up for the challenge then they would never consider another foreign buy of a single engine fighter.

  30. #120
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    Regarding super 30 upgrade.

    Vijainder K Thakur‏ @vkthakur
    @raikartikey1 AL-41F is almost confirmed as powerplant. Deal should be signed this year.

    Fwiw.

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