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Thread: Indian Air Force Thread 21

  1. #181
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vnomad View Post
    Actually developing indigenous fighter-manufacturing capabilities was always one of the key-drivers of the Su-30 contract. General capabilities. Not platform-specific.
    It does not make sense. China got more restricted license of Flanker and they still managed to further there aviation industry. unless India is another Turkey who assembled 300 F-16s at low cost period.

  2. #182
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    Quote Originally Posted by haavarla View Post
    First and foremost, its was Irkutsk whom did 95% of the R/D on IAF requirements on the MKI(with large chunk of Indian funding).
    After the Su-30 MKI reached completion when test phase was done, IAF got deliveries in 2002, and HAL received kits, until they had set up their workshop properly for manufactoring their own.

    If India has a overall goal to develop their own fighters, thats fine.
    But on the MKI, India got what it paid for in the contracts talks.
    The article explicitly refers to manufacturing capabilities, distinct from design/development capability (which would come under the aegis of ADA rather than HAL). That being said, HAL did eventually achieve the capability to perform in-house modifications, most prominent of course being the Brahmos adaptation.

  3. #183
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    HAL manufactures/sources around 50% of the Su-30MKI domestically IIRC. ToT for many spares wasn't a part of the original agreement, leading to very serious complications with spares acquisition in later years.

    They were attempting to remedy that recently, and apparently don't want to make the same mistake with the PAK FA.

    Russia Offers Su-30MKI Technology Transfer Under ‘Make-in-India’ - Nov 2015

    Russia has expressed willingness to transfer technology of 332 components of the Sukhoi Su-30MKI fighter aircraft under the ‘Make-in-India’ program.

    These components, also called line replacement units (LRUs) refer to both critical and non-critical components and fall into four major heads such as Radio and Radar; Electrical & Electronics System; Mechanical System and Instrument System.

    India’s Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) which manufactures the aircraft under licence from its Russian arms exporter, Rosoboronexport, has opened talks with the latter and the Sukhoi aircraft manufacturer, Irkut Corp., to enable Indian industries to manufacture the LRUs through transfer of technology (TOT) from the relevant Russian manufacturers of the components, the Times of India reported on Friday.

    Russia and India have commenced discussion since last August on further TOT for the Sukhoi Su-30MKI under the ‘Make-in-India’ program to enable greater participation from the Indian private industry in defence manufacture, the report added. India will receive the full complement of 272 Su-30MKI aircraft by the end of next month. While the number of aircraft with the Indian air force increases, so also does the need for maintenance, repair and overhaul. With a planned service life of 30 years, the requirement for LRUs will only increase.

    Vitaly Borodich, senior vice-president (military aviation), IRKUT Corp had told defenseworld.net during an interview earlier this year, “Of the 272 aircraft contracted by India, 222 aircraft will have been co-produced in India with HAL as our main partner.”

    Borodich had said that India (HAL) has mastered licence production to the extent that certain critical raw material is sourced locally.

    In addition, hi-tech products of Indian origin such as on-board computers are not only installed on Su-30MKIs, but also supplied as integral parts of Su-30 family of aircraft to Air Forces of Russia, Algeria and Malaysia.

    While India assembles the Su-30MKI aircraft with some major components manufactured in India and the rest sourced from Russia due to absence of economies of scale and a network of local suppliers, the new initiative should help a greater assimilation of various technologies that go into the aircraft’s manufacture.

    HAL has set up the only overhaul facility for Su-30 outside of Russia with help from Russia. As more IAF aircraft clock the required number of flying fours to commence the overhaul process, greater is the need for LRUs and this is where the ‘Make-in-India’ initiative for the SU-30MKI aircraft comes into play.

    India has recently signed an agreement with Malaysia to set up a Sukhoi Su-30 forum to share information about the aircraft which is operated by both countries. Parts made under the ‘Make-in-India’ program could find an export outlet to Malaysia.

  4. #184
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    WRT spares.

    Defence Ministry to discuss lack of Russian military equipment spares today - Aug 2016

    To tide over the problem of non-availability of spares for Russian military equipment which form the bulk of country’s defence inventory, defence ministry has called for a meeting of Indian private defence industry next week. The meeting, which will be chaired by Secretary Defence Production (DP), will also be attended by Chairman of Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) and senior officers from the three defence services.

    Since the early 1960s, India is estimated to have acquired military equipment worth $45 billion from Moscow which forms more than 60 per cent of equipment on the inventory of the three services. But the current serviceability state of this equipment, particularly those with the Indian Air Force (IAF) and the navy, is less than 50 per cent, sources said.

    The problem is particularly acute in the case of Sukhoi Su-30 fighter aircraft which is made under license by HAL here. More than 200 Su-30 fighters are already in service with the IAF, and form the backbone of the country’s air power. The HAL is responsible for providing spares for these aircraft but is currently unable to meet the requirement, due to an unreliable and fledgling supply line from Russia. The state of spares with other Russian origin platforms such as the Mig-29 naval fighters, Kamov and Mi-17 helicopters is also not very encouraging. The IAF and the navy directly issue contracts for these spares but have complained to the defence ministry about the unreliable nature of Russian provisioning.

    A couple of suggestions to overcome this problem were mooted during a similar meeting, chaired by Secretary (DP) in end-June but have not led to any concrete outcomes. One option explored during the June meeting was for the Indian companies to source the spare parts directly from Ukranian manufacturers. That proposal was shot down by HAL because the Ukrainian equipment is not certified by Russia. It means that the Russian guarantee on these platforms would become null and void, if they are fitted with Ukrainian spares.

    Meanwhile, HAL attempted to overcome this problem by asking local MSME industry to start making these spares in India. This would, however, need a transfer of technology (ToT) from Russia which can only be done through the Russian government agency, Rosoboronexport corporation. Most Indian private industry officials are wary of working with Rosoboronexport, because of, what they say, is its “poor track-record and unprofessional attitude”.

    “We have worked with Rosoboronexport which operates like a middleman. We paid the money to Rosoboronexport but the small Russian company never got the money from Rosoboronexport, and never sent us the parts. We are not alone, everyone has had complaints with Rosoboronexport which even the defence ministry is fully aware of,” Vice-President of a top Indian defence company told The Indian Express.

    In the June meeting, Secretary (DP) had promised the industry that the issue of Rosoboronexport will be raised with Moscow at a ministerial and diplomatic level. That matter is bound to come up again in the meeting next week.

    Indian private defence firms also assert that even if they were to somehow work through Rosoboronexport, it will be unprofitable for them to start a production line here in the absence of a firm order for a few years. Secretary (DP) had responded favourably to the idea and agreed to issuing a policy which gives firm orders to an Indian company for five years at benchmark price. These companies are expecting to hear from the ministry on the new policy next week.

  5. #185
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    HAL has already made MKI from raw material phase in India

    http://bharatshakti.in/hal-plans-to-...soon-says-cmd/

    NG: Give us an update on the manufacture of Sukhoi Su 30MkI.

    TSR: SU-30 MKI aircraft is being manufactured by HAL under licence from Russia. The licence manufacturing is being carried in four phases which includes manufacture from raw materials. The complete technology has been absorbed by HAL and current orders are likely to be liquidated by 2019-20. HAL has produced 174 Su-30 MKI aircraft out of order for 222 aircraft till Mar 2016. HAL has manufactured approx 39000 components in airframe and 1015 aggregates. Further HAL has manufactured around 5600 components for Engines by absorbing 133 new technologies. Even the Casting & Forgings required for engine has been mastered by HAL within India. Today all components defined in the scope of ToT are made in India by HAL with 100% technology absorption for Airframe and Engine.

    HAL is the first agency in the world to establish full facilities for the MRO of Su-30MKI. The facilities for MRO are established for Airframe, Engines and 736 aggregates at Nasik, Koraput, Hyderabad, Lucknow and Korwa Divisions. HAL could successfully overhaul two aircraft during 2014-15 and delivered to IAF. Further, four aircraft were overhauled during 2015-16.
    They have already built 300 Engines in India AL-31FP militarynews.ru/story.asp?rid=1&nid=441658
    "Today, India produced about 300 engines of technological units set Ufa PJSC" UMPO "(included in the ODK) in different phases of readiness", - informed "Interfax" in the DCS Tuesday.

    Press officer said that the program of licensed production of Russian engine AL-31FP is implemented in the department of the corporation Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) in Koraput.

    "Currently, all phases of the licensed production of AL-31FP mastered the Indian side of the total operating time in service in India engine AL-31FP reaches about 300 thousand hours.",
    - Reported in the corporation at the opening on Tuesday, the exhibition "Aero India - 2017" (14 -18th of Febuary).

    They stated that the same Department of Indian corporations also have mastered and repair these engines.
    "A map does you no good if you don't know where you are"

  6. #186
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    The engine situation is confusing, because despite supposed domestic production success, and earlier imported engines, India signed a deal with UMPO in late 2012 for 920 more AL-31FP.....
    http://img818.imageshack.us/img818/9098/rsz11rsz3807.jpg

  7. #187
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vnomad View Post
    but but, there were a ton of people saying the spare issues is no issue at all!

  8. #188
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    Spare issue was more problemetic 2-3 years back when MKI had servicibility of ~ 45 %

    At Aero India HAL mentioned availability is much better today

    http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/a.../1/883333.html

    SERVICEABILITY: Every HAL supplied platform has 65 per cent serviceability and Sukhoi 30 MKI maximum serviceability of 68 per cent. We have given a proposal to MoD to become Original Equipment Manufacturer (OEM) for Sukhoi in India.
    "A map does you no good if you don't know where you are"

  9. #189
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    this spare parts issue only related to india. others can fly million sorties with same equipment. single engine IAF M2K now goes outside india less than Jf-17.

  10. #190
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    Quote Originally Posted by Austin View Post
    Spare issue was more problemetic 2-3 years back when MKI had servicibility of ~ 45 %

    At Aero India HAL mentioned availability is much better today

    http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/a.../1/883333.html

    SERVICEABILITY: Every HAL supplied platform has 65 per cent serviceability and Sukhoi 30 MKI maximum serviceability of 68 per cent. We have given a proposal to MoD to become Original Equipment Manufacturer (OEM) for Sukhoi in India.
    note the article said a variety of aircraft.. mig-29k included.

    but it would also be nice to see how Algeria and some other countries feel about this.
    Is this a problem all over Russian support, is it a problem with India

  11. #191
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    Quote Originally Posted by Y-20 Bacon View Post
    but but, there were a ton of people saying the spare issues is no issue at all!
    The situation is being gradually remedied. For example, among other things, Russia recently changed its policy allowing customers to directly negotiate with the OEM without going through Rosoboronexport.

  12. #192
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    Quote Originally Posted by Y-20 Bacon View Post
    note the article said a variety of aircraft.. mig-29k included.

    but it would also be nice to see how Algeria and some other countries feel about this.
    Is this a problem all over Russian support, is it a problem with India
    It says 65 % of HAL supplied platform and 68 % for MKI
    "A map does you no good if you don't know where you are"

  13. #193
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    Quote Originally Posted by Austin View Post
    HAL has already made MKI from raw material phase in India

    http://bharatshakti.in/hal-plans-to-...soon-says-cmd/

    They have already built 300 Engines in India AL-31FP militarynews.ru/story.asp?rid=1&nid=441658
    So acording to the MKI upgrade aka Super MKI. It will be done in two phases. And that the 117S engine is in the pipeline.
    Do we see HAL get to produce the 117S in the future?
    Thanks

  14. #194
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    Does other countries practice as hard as IAF? IAF push the equipment to the limit, it is one thing to fly planes during day light in flat flight then performing cobra's or doing night sortings in mountains or freezing temperatures or in nagpur where temperatures hit quite high .... and list continues .... so compare with equals and match the results.

  15. #195
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    Quote Originally Posted by rkumar View Post
    Does other countries practice as hard as IAF? IAF push the equipment to the limit, it is one thing to fly planes during day light in flat flight then performing cobra's or doing night sortings in mountains or freezing temperatures or in nagpur where temperatures hit quite high .... and list continues .... so compare with equals and match the results.
    Its worst for the jets to operate in tropic temperature.
    During winter, its not.
    Thanks

  16. #196
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    Quote Originally Posted by Y-20 Bacon View Post
    note the article said a variety of aircraft.. mig-29k included.

    but it would also be nice to see how Algeria and some other countries feel about this.
    Is this a problem all over Russian support, is it a problem with India
    That's like asking whether there is a problem with France, since the availability of almost all their fleet is <60% and in many cases <50% itself. French posters claim that is a result of lack of spending on spares for fleets that are not involved in campaigns.

  17. #197
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    Quote Originally Posted by rkumar View Post
    Does other countries practice as hard as IAF? IAF push the equipment to the limit, it is one thing to fly planes during day light in flat flight then performing cobra's or doing night sortings in mountains or freezing temperatures or in nagpur where temperatures hit quite high .... and list continues .... so compare with equals and match the results.
    I am sure most countries must be putting their equipment to hard practice in their own way and must be coming across many challenges that are unique to their operational deployment and climatic conditions much like IAF does.

    Many of these countries who develop their own military technologies tend to test it and root out the problem at design and testing phase ,so operational deployment issue much be lot fewer say compared to IAF or other countries that import most of their equipment and face many issue that might have been undocumented by the OEM as their typical deployment scenario and climatic conditions might have not thrown up these issues.

    There is a case of IAF Jags working quite well in UK climate while in Indian condition typical hot summer their engine face significant derating , Or the Pawan Hans chopper ordered from UK and then completely grounded
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  18. #198
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlackArcher View Post
    That's like asking whether there is a problem with France, since the availability of almost all their fleet is <60% and in many cases <50% itself. French posters claim that is a result of lack of spending on spares for fleets that are not involved in campaigns.
    Well its mostly true, but not complete. There is what is called "operational contract" signed by AdA . This contract mentions the requirements (eg. N*° of flight hours/pilot, Sqd etc.). Inthis contract, for example, is mentioned permanenetly opex ready 12 planes. No use to tell you that we're well above for years now. And logistic chain is sized according to this contract. So yes, it is partly a question of money. Second part is the intent to harmonize flight hours between planes in a single sqd. Hard to do without "mothballing" an aircraft that is just back from eg Mali. Fianlly (but a bit too technical), there are two metrics here to measure availability. Availability per se and operational availability.

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    About :
    order to "not repeat the mistakes" of the entire Sukhoi-30MKI jet acquisition programme from Russia, which cost India Rs 55,717 crore without any tangible help in developing indigenous fighter-manufacturing capabilities.
    it is nonsense, as from October 2014 :
    http://www.airforce-technology.com/n...rcraft-4416384
    Leveraging its expertise in Su-30MKI production, HAL Nashik is now domestically manufacturing 31,500 of the 43,000 components that are integrated into the fighter jet, in addition partially indigenising its AL-31FP engines, which are built in Koraput, Odisha, India. HAL Nashik facility chief S Subrahmanyan said: "More than 51% of the Su-30MKI by value is currently made in India, a little more than the 49% agreed with Russia in the contract signed in 2000 to build 140 fighters in India. "As of August 2014, IAF had 200 Su-30MKIs in service, with each set to undergo upgrade after flying 1,500 hours or 14 years, whichever is earlier.
    Last edited by rcolistete; 11th March 2017 at 18:24.

  20. #200
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    Quote Originally Posted by halloweene View Post
    Well its mostly true, but not complete. There is what is called "operational contract" signed by AdA . This contract mentions the requirements (eg. N*° of flight hours/pilot, Sqd etc.). Inthis contract, for example, is mentioned permanenetly opex ready 12 planes. No use to tell you that we're well above for years now. And logistic chain is sized according to this contract. So yes, it is partly a question of money. Second part is the intent to harmonize flight hours between planes in a single sqd. Hard to do without "mothballing" an aircraft that is just back from eg Mali. Fianlly (but a bit too technical), there are two metrics here to measure availability. Availability per se and operational availability.
    availability for the entire fleet versus operational availability for a few aircraft deployed is very different. For the latter, you can ensure that spares are stocked up, since it is for a small fleet. That is how such "operational" contracts can be affordable- high availability guaranteed, but for a small portion of the fleet. That has not really been a problem for the Su-30MKI fleet either. The availability for MKIs during exercises has been very high but at a fleet level, when you're talking about >220 MKIs, the number became ~48%, which is not too far from what Adl'A achieved for a smaller fleet of Mirages or Rafales that are not operationally deployed.

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    The government does not seem keen to place a follow-on order to buy twin-engine Rafale fighter planes made by French aerospace major Dassault Aviation even as the Indian Air Force (IAF) faces a depletion of its fleet.
    However, sources said the government was now focused on acquiring single-engine fighter jets, the deal size of which is around $12 billion. The frontrunners in this are Saab’s Gripen and Lockheed Martin’s F-16.
    Full story: http://www.thehindubusinessline.com/...cle9581623.ece

    (This is Indian media so should be taken with a bucket of salt...)

  22. #202
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    Quote Originally Posted by haavarla View Post
    So acording to the MKI upgrade aka Super MKI. It will be done in two phases. And that the 117S engine is in the pipeline.
    Do we see HAL get to produce the 117S in the future?
    117S has larger fan diameter.. I don't think it can be integrated into the Su-30MKI without structural mods. Much easier to make a new version of Al-31FP based on new tech.

  23. #203
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    They confirmed at Aero India last month that 117S engine can be used on MKI for upgrade

    https://ria.ru/defense_safety/20170215/1487999667.html
    The modernized Su-30MKI for the Indian Air Force will receive the engines of the Su-35

    "Speaking of the aircraft modernization of Su-30MKI in terms of propulsion - we have developed the engine AL-41F-1C, it is installed on the Su-35 This motor is presented at our stand and can be used for the Su-30MKI." - Artyukhov said on press conference.

    He added that the engine whose performance is significantly superior to its predecessors.
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  24. #204
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    Quote Originally Posted by MSphere View Post
    117S has larger fan diameter.. I don't think it can be integrated into the Su-30MKI without structural mods. Much easier to make a new version of Al-31FP based on new tech.
    You just detach section of inlet and air-duct, replace it with a new and you are set to go.
    Thanks

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    something that may have its influence, M. Parrikar resigns from office:

    http://www.hindustantimes.com/assemb...HSURrHQFM.html

    http://www.firstpost.com/politics/go...e-3331716.html

    considering he spent good part of his time downplaying the Rafale, the skies may have suddenly get clearer for the french fighter in India... it will depend on the person called to replace him, but if that person is close to the positions of the PM? it may be beneficial for the french (and India, IMHO)

  26. #206
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    Quote Originally Posted by TooCool_12f View Post
    considering he spent good part of his time downplaying the Rafale, the skies may have suddenly get clearer for the french fighter in India... it will depend on the person called to replace him, but if that person is close to the positions of the PM? it may be beneficial for the french (and India, IMHO)
    The PM is highly unlikely to have a position on policy intricacies on what is primarily a ministry matter. He would be concerned more with the bigger picture - both domestic & strategic.

    In Parrikar's absence, for the near future, the MoD's bureaucracy will determine the direction pursued on all pending matters. That's not particularly good news as far as the Rafale is concerned (there was a fair bit of friction b/w the MoD & Dassault). On the other hand, its not good news for Saab/LM either since the single-engined fighter contract was Parrikar's project.
    Last edited by Vnomad; 13th March 2017 at 17:28.

  27. #207
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    Quote Originally Posted by TooCool_12f View Post
    something that may have its influence, M. Parrikar resigns from office:

    http://www.hindustantimes.com/assemb...HSURrHQFM.html

    http://www.firstpost.com/politics/go...e-3331716.html

    considering he spent good part of his time downplaying the Rafale, the skies may have suddenly get clearer for the french fighter in India... it will depend on the person called to replace him, but if that person is close to the positions of the PM? it may be beneficial for the french (and India, IMHO)
    The skies are not going to get any clearer for a MII Rafale. Parrikar was not responsible for the Rafale being downplayed at all. He was pro-Make in India and towards that, gave more importance to indigenisation versus massively expensive imports.

    He is an IIT Powai (Indian Inst. of Tech, a premier engineering institute) educated engineer, not like some of the past Defence Ministers who couldn't tell a single engined fighter from a twin engined fighter if you showed them where the engines went. Now that Arun Jaitley, the Finance Minister, is going to handle the DM's portfolio too, some rationalisation and reduction of the gap between MoD and MoF may happen, but don't expect that he'll suddenly start approving ultra-expensive imports, or even a very expensive MII fighter, French or not.

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    sad news indeed. He was obviously competent in that role. Perhaps it's time now to have someone coming from the industry? I mean, with the priority given to MII, what better to fit the bill than this?

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    If MKI boosted up to Al-41/117S then it makes sense to run a single engine Al-31 derived single engine fighter to keep the indigenous engine production relevant. Too bad there isn't a J-10 equivalent now, huh?
    Go Huskers!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Loke View Post
    Full story: http://www.thehindubusinessline.com/...cle9581623.ece

    (This is Indian media so should be taken with a bucket of salt...)
    The writing was on the wall for a while.

    No one really believed that an air force really needed a heavy, medium, AND light weight fighter. There were people who were like "zomg, we have a flanker and the tejas, but nothing in between! we need a medium asap!"..
    despite most air forces not operating all three weight classes. Even the Russians only use two (heavy and medium).
    And with the Rafale winning MMRCA and its projected order cut from a few hundred to a few dozen.. it was pretty obvious the Indians didn't want more.

    The ideal solution should've been Flankers and the Mirage 2k production line.. but they didn't have the foresight to jump on that deal
    the next should have been Flankers and Tejas, but it seems the Indian AF and Navy don't want it either (or don't want a specific version, since no one here agrees on which version they don't want).
    so logically the next will be Flankers and another single engine type, of which the Gripen should be better choice due to engine commonality with the MCA project

    What should happen next is India changing its Rafale order for Rafale Ms. maybe the IAF doesn't seem keen on it, but the IN seem much more open as reports show they're not keen on their 29ks.

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